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Grudges


Omniscient1
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[b]Grudge[/b] - a resentment strong enough to justify retaliation

At the moment, Planet Bob is enveloped in a war where it appears most alliances were able to attack someone they had a long standing or very public beef with. Now, I realize this happens in most wars, but it just seemed and felt like it was to a greater extent this time. Either way, it seemed like a good time to bring this up.

How big of a factor should grudges be in this game? If you believe grudges should be a big factor, at what point does one grudge trump another?

A lot of people have the belief that grudges, rivalries, and revenge is completely what this game is about. Those people generally argue that the game is less fun without villains and heroes. There is usually an argument about how a game built on doing nothing but being nice and being friends with everyone is boring.

On the other hand, some people believe grudges stifle game play and creates a boring cycle of the same wars. They also argue most wars in the end aren't about grudges at all. Instead, they say grudges are used as excuses to start wars for political ends. Those who allow their grudges to trump their common sense are often times mocked and hated.

On a personal level, I have found acting on personal grudges usually isn't as fun as it seems like it would be. Back when I had no grudges, and operated on a purely real politik basis seemed more fun. However, I'm not sure if it's simple nostalgia.

So what do [b]YOU[/b] think? Are personal/alliance grudges a big part in your game? Or are they virtually non-existent/unimportant?

(thought this deserved a larger audience than my blog)

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I'd say grudges are generally a healthy part of this game as they are what often drives CN politics. I'd go one step further and voice approval for dropping all pretenses and simply attacking those you strongly despise (instead of resorting to the manipulation, isolation, fabrication, etc of years past).

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I had a grudge with the NPO for the longest time. I think grudges are fine so long as you keep them IC. Holding a rivalry IC and keeping good humour OOC is really quite fun. Thing is most people don't observe the IC/OOC line anymore and therefore aren't prepared to move on from grudges formed three years ago and therefore politics doesn't change an awful lot. Meanwhile people who observe IC/OOC are demonised as 'moralists' even though it has nothing to do with moralism.

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Anything that makes the game interesting is good. Seriously, can we imagine a CN where everyone loves each other and all we did was sit around the forums and do drum circles?

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[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1326341616' post='2897865']
Grudges are fun. They certainly serve to spice the game up a little more. Am I right, Gibs?
[/quote]

Yeah, you're right. Grudges give you goals, which means you have something to accomplish. That makes the game much better, in my opinion.

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1326341221' post='2897863']
I had a grudge with the NPO for the longest time. I think grudges are fine so long as you keep them IC. Holding a rivalry IC and keeping good humour OOC is really quite fun. Thing is most people don't observe the IC/OOC line anymore and therefore aren't prepared to move on from grudges formed three years ago and therefore politics doesn't change an awful lot. Meanwhile people who observe IC/OOC are demonised as 'moralists' even though it has nothing to do with moralism.
[/quote]
I agree that people need to learn the difference between OOC and IC. For instance, me and Bob Ilyani are usually at each others throats on these forums and in embassies, but on IRC we've !@#$%^&*ted around before. I could say the same about quite a few RoK members, actually.

Edited by Gibsonator21
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[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1326340452' post='2897851']
A lot of people have the belief that grudges, rivalries, and revenge is completely what this game is about. Those people generally argue that the game is less fun without villains and heroes. There is usually an argument about how a game built on doing nothing but being nice and being friends with everyone is boring.

On the other hand, some people believe grudges stifle game play and creates a boring cycle of the same wars. They also argue most wars in the end aren't about grudges at all. Instead, they say grudges are used as excuses to start wars for political ends. Those who allow their grudges to trump their common sense are often times mocked and hated.
[/quote]
I think the answer is in between. I feel like I'm pretty bad about holding onto grudges sometimes, but during a recent discussion at CoJ's forum about grudges, I found myself leaning the other way.
For me, I can latch onto something quickly. I don't hold punches, so a single post I took pretty lightly often escalates very quickly into a death struggle. Right now most people immediately think VE or GOONS grudge when they think of me.
But for me, I'm a politician in a geo-political simulator. From my perspective, it makes no sense to hold onto a grudge for grudge's sake. For example, I had a raging grudge with LoSS for months. One day some guy from LoSS is goading me, and all of a sudden I have no idea why I don't like LoSS, like I literally went into #loss and asked them why we didn't like each other. At that point, it was just stupid and I really couldn't care less one way or the other about LoSS even though I know I spent months jerking them around. Impero and I have beef going back to Vox that VE carried over post-Vox, and I'm perfectly happy to play villain if that's what they want, but in the run-up to this war I saw the writing on the wall and as a politician I made a conscious decision to back off VE and let them take care of business; fortunately for my grudge, they flopped again, but you see what I mean. I used Europa as an example of why CoJ has the foreign affairs ideals we have one day, Europa took personal offence, and we had a grand hate parade for months; one day me and Che put the cards on the table, and now it's over; boom, just like that.

Short-term, or maybe short-term isn't word, maybe "term grudges" I think can drive politics, and drive them in interesting and game-advancing ways. This is a political game, and grudges are a good way to bring people together and drive political action.

Long-term or neverending grudges, though, I think definitely do have the stagnating effect. They alienate newcomers who have no stake in the grudge or even any memory of the precipitating incident(s), but they end up having to pick a side. They pick the side that looks bigger and more likely to win, and then big surprise, 3/4 of the world is lined up against 1/4 in a war that isn't satisfying for anyone.

Grudge proliferaters that think they're going to save the game by intentionally being as bad as they in order to create more grudges are myopic. They don't have a real grasp of the big picture, and the biggest flaw in their clever plan is that they can only be serious jerks to the most weak alliances, and those alliances once made to be that weak and then defeated over and over again will never be able to garner a force that they'd need to do anything about their grudge. It's pseudoscience.

Edited by Schattenmann
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Grudges are only useful when politically expedient.

That said, very few people in this game have an OOC / IC boundary anymore and too few recognize that having one is what makes the game fun for all.

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[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1326341146' post='2897858']
I'd say grudges are generally a healthy part of this game as they are what often drives CN politics. I'd go one step further and voice approval for dropping all pretenses and simply attacking those you strongly despise (instead of resorting to the manipulation, isolation, fabrication, etc of years past).
[/quote]

I agree with the first part of your post, but I strongly disagree with the last one. You say that grudges is what drives CN politics but what politics is left after people started to attack others just because they dislike said alliance?

Drop all the pretenses/politics(manipulation, isolation, fabrication, etc) to start to attack just those who you dislike would destroy (already destroyed) the main objective of this game, who is be a simulation game to become just another game which the objective is kill the other side, and for that we have tons of better games. CN politics never was very developed but in old times people at least used to try, nowadays the interactions in this game just became a digital version of a playground in a elementary school.

I started to play CN because of the simulation characteristic, were everyone had a country and the interactions with each other and among alliances were based on real diplomatic relations, nowadays this characteristic is almost completely gone, nowadays I still play just because I'm stubborn.

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[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1326344259' post='2897894']
Grudges are only useful when politically expedient.

That said, very few people in this game have an OOC / IC boundary anymore and too few recognize that having one is what makes the game fun for all.
[/quote]

I can think of quite a few people whom don't know where OOC stops and where IC begins.

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The world needs to be at least bi-polar in order for this mess to work, multi-polar is even better. The more people hate each other the greater the tensions that develop, the more exciting things become. There is a line however where holding grudges defeats this. You need to be able to drop the grudge when it becomes necessary to re-align the world to create roughly equal sides to allow new tensions to develop. If you and yours hold all the power it becomes self-defeating. I would argue this war is one of the most boring ever for this reason. Some of us have been waiting far too long for this conflict, the grudges should have been traded for something more useful a long time ago.

The best periods for me on Bob were when there were no foregone conclusions months out from major conflicts. The jockeying and trading/excusing of grudges to align the numbers you need is where a lot of the fun was for me and many others.

It is important that we hold onto things but also be prepared to let them go when it is appropriate to do so.

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[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1326344294' post='2897895']
I agree with the first part of your post, but I strongly disagree with the last one. You say that grudges is what drives CN politics but what politics is left after people started to attack others just because they dislike said alliance?

Drop all the pretenses/politics(manipulation, isolation, fabrication, etc) to start to attack just those who you dislike would destroy (already destroyed) the main objective of this game, who is be a simulation game to become just another game which the objective is kill the other side, and for that we have tons of better games. CN politics never was very developed but in old times people at least used to try, nowadays the interactions in this game just became a digital version of a playground in a elementary school.

I started to play CN because of the simulation characteristic, were everyone had a country and the interactions with each other and among alliances were based on real diplomatic relations, nowadays this characteristic is almost completely gone, nowadays I still play just because I'm stubborn.
[/quote]

Yeah, you're just [i]known[/i] for your ability to forgive and forget.

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1326343984' post='2897892']
Grudge proliferaters that think they're going to save the game by intentionally being as bad as they in order to create more grudges are myopic. They don't have a real grasp of the big picture, and the biggest flaw in their clever plan is that they can only be serious jerks to the most weak alliances, and those alliances once made to be that weak and then defeated over and over again will never be able to garner a force that they'd need to do anything about their grudge. It's pseudoscience.
[/quote]

Good point.

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[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1326344957' post='2897907']
Yeah, you're just [i]known[/i] for your ability to forgive and forget.
[/quote]

Yeah I keep my grudges with extremely care and love, now if you had read my post you might have seen that I didn't speak against the grudges, and this could have made you save your time and consequently, my own.

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Grudge wars are definetly the most fun... having the chance to nuke it out with GOONS has definetly been the most fun I've had here in a long time. Fighting people you kinda like or are indifferent to just is rather unsatisfying and hollow to be totally honest.

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