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Grudges


Omniscient1

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[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1326344573' post='2897901']
The world needs to be at least bi-polar in order for this mess to work, multi-polar is even better. The more people hate each other the greater the tensions that develop, the more exciting things become. There is a line however where holding grudges defeats this. You need to be able to drop the grudge when it becomes necessary to re-align the world to create roughly equal sides to allow new tensions to develop. If you and yours hold all the power it becomes self-defeating. I would argue this war is one of the most boring ever for this reason. Some of us have been waiting far too long for this conflict, the grudges should have been traded for something more useful a long time ago.

The best periods for me on Bob were when there were no foregone conclusions months out from major conflicts. The jockeying and trading/excusing of grudges to align the numbers you need is where a lot of the fun was for me and many others.

It is important that we hold onto things but also be prepared to let them go when it is appropriate to do so.
[/quote]
TOP vs. Polar wasn't a new grudge/rivalry, but many of the tensions and rivalries going into this war were. It effectively erased the karma vs. ex-hegemony lines that were important in all the wars between Karma and now, specifically supergrievances.

Edited by Azaghul
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[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1326344573' post='2897901']
The world needs to be at least bi-polar in order for this mess to work, multi-polar is even better. The more people hate each other the greater the tensions that develop, the more exciting things become. There is a line however where holding grudges defeats this. You need to be able to drop the grudge when it becomes necessary to re-align the world to create roughly equal sides to allow new tensions to develop. If you and yours hold all the power it becomes self-defeating. I would argue this war is one of the most boring ever for this reason. Some of us have been waiting far too long for this conflict, the grudges should have been traded for something more useful a long time ago.

The best periods for me on Bob were when there were no foregone conclusions months out from major conflicts. The jockeying and trading/excusing of grudges to align the numbers you need is where a lot of the fun was for me and many others.

It is important that we hold onto things but also be prepared to let them go when it is appropriate to do so.
[/quote]

This is also more or less my point of view. I believe I've held grudges towards some alliances and after I've dealt with them (attacked the alliances), I no longer held those grudges. Sometimes it's good for the game if you shape things up so we don't have the same sides over and over again.

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[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1326344294' post='2897895']
You say that grudges is what drives CN politics but what politics is left after people started to attack others just because they dislike said alliance?
[/quote]

The same politics that have always existed will continue to even if the manner in which war is conducted has changed. Alliances and blocs aren't suddenly going to stop maneuvering to improve their power base and standing in this game because the state of warfare is not entirely as it once was. Grudges - regardless of the manner in which they manifest (whether with or without the pretenses) - will always be a driving force in this game.

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1326344294' post='2897895']
Drop all the pretenses/politics(manipulation, isolation, fabrication, etc) to start to attack just those who you dislike would destroy (already destroyed) the main objective of this game, who is be a simulation game to become just another game which the objective is kill the other side, and for that we have tons of better games.
[/quote]

I'm not sure how you've come to the conclusion that this game is no longer a simulation simply because war has changed. For that matter, I'm not sure how you've come to the conclusion that the game's objective (which is mirky ground to begin with given that 1000 of its players play for a thousand different reasons and with a thousand different intentions) is now only to kill the other side, when it's always been about just that (are you really going to tell me that NPO, when hegemon, didn't endeavor to weaken or eliminate its opposition?).

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[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1326341221' post='2897863']
I had a grudge with the NPO for the longest time. I think grudges are fine so long as you keep them IC. Holding a rivalry IC and keeping good humour OOC is really quite fun. Thing is most people don't observe the IC/OOC line anymore and therefore aren't prepared to move on from grudges formed three years ago and therefore politics doesn't change an awful lot. Meanwhile people who observe IC/OOC are demonised as 'moralists' even though it has nothing to do with moralism.[/quote]

Thread won. Well done. It's a game people. You don't need to hack into someone's Facebook/MySpace/Photobucket/whatever account to see if you can find something OOC that will get you leverage against someone IC. If you've gotten to that point with this...quit now.

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ive held grudges with Alliance, more so with members of the community as they are what makes the alliances you hate.


Though most of them end when you fight them in a war, some just keep on going though...... (ooc stuff)

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Honestly, i think a bit of grudges is healthy, but there should be a time to drop em. I'm happy that SF had the opportunity to fight mjolnir and get some things over with that were overdue for a long time between both parties. I don't know if the slate is clean or not,(an agreement between both parties would be required, implicit or not) but it felt satisfying to get it all out and over with, so we can move on.

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I think grudges can be good for a while. It provides a framework to act in/towards. However, if the grudge lasts on and on into eternity it means you end up with the same two sides squaring off for years, and that gets boring. Get a grudge, act on it, bury the hatchet, find a new grudge.

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Grudges run Planet Bob and its peoples with an Iron fist. Previous wars have all been fought for/because of them, this war is being fought because of them, the next war(MJ from what I hear) will be over w/e grudges came from this war and the period leading upto it.

Its the way it always has been and way it will always be, unless those in power and whom have been here for any length of time decide to drop old feelings and slights. Which we all know is damn near impossible unless its for the expediency of settling an even bigger grudge.

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I like to keep enough grudges just so I have something to orient myself around. I don't like to re-use or maintain grudges after major wars based upon them, though I have in the past, nor do I like to maintain so many that I feel constrained.

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The same people tend to do the same ignominious things on and on. In that sense I hold grudges both IC and OOC. I say "OOC" in relation to the game. People (and communities) who show contempt for the IC/OOC line, I begrudge. People who start making me unsolicited 3 am phone calls over CN, I begrudge.

IC or IC/OOC-blurred grudges that continue on [i]ad infinitum[/i] are a menace to this game. We need a mass grave for hatchets if this war is any indication.

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[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1326409031' post='2898309']
The same people tend to do the same ignominious things on and on. In that sense I hold grudges both IC and OOC. I say "OOC" in relation to the game. People (and communities) who show contempt for the IC/OOC line, I begrudge. People who start making me unsolicited 3 am phone calls over CN, I begrudge.

IC or IC/OOC-blurred grudges that continue on [i]ad infinitum[/i] are a menace to this game. We need a mass grave for hatchets if this war is any indication.
[/quote]
We can have one if people just conclude that this war is one.

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[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1326344294' post='2897895']
You say that grudges is what drives CN politics but what politics is left after people started to attack others just because they dislike said alliance? [/quote]

A grudge is more than "I'm attacking you because I don't like your alliance." A grudge is "I'm attacking your alliance because your alliance did (insert reason)." People can argue about whether or not the reason for the grudge is worthy of going to war over or should just be dropped and if it's worthy of going to war, then how many wars over the same grudge are justified and/or how long a grudge should or should not be held, etc. However having a "grudge" implies there is a reason for it.

Personally, I would much rather have war declarations that are clear about the reason, be it because of a grudge or some other reason. I think it's better than making up some false CB (a grudge is still a CB) because once the actual reasons are clear, it's more likely that the issue can be resolved and the grudge can be settled.

In terms of grudges specifically, I personally don't have any that are worth making a war. However, I've "inherited" one based on who I've chosen to hang with. Whatever it's worth to them, it's worth to me. So it goes, GOD. :war:

Oh, and if I'm going to attack a nation/alliance due to a grudge, than I'm going to do my best to let that nation/alliance know exactly who I am, how I (or my friends) was/were hurt previously and how good a little payback feels.

Edited by White Chocolate
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[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1326340452' post='2897851']So what do [b]YOU[/b] think? Are personal/alliance grudges a big part in your game? Or are they virtually non-existent/unimportant?[/quote]
My memory isn't good enough for me to have grudges. I can't really link most of you to anything, TBQH. Sorry.

That said, anything that provide steam to the game dynamic is probably good; the real downside with several grudges is the (low) quality of the discourse that accompanies them ("You suck", "Worst [...] Ever" etc.) rather than the fact that they're grudges.
People like Grub, Ardus, Xiph, Sardonic etc. can put some fine literature in their "hate" posts. I guess that others just aren't good at it.

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[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1326409837' post='2898316']
We can have one if people just conclude that this war is one.
[/quote]

Good luck with that line.

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They do tend to be the primary driver of political conflict, or at least seem to. They get stale though, especially if denied fuel.

I try to make an effort to not let it get personal, but that's failed before and likely will again.

Edited by Aurion
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I think it helps the game, and makes things more interesting. Planning things like friends, alliance moves, ect are more difficult. I mean if given the chance I'd be more than happy to roll VE, while I'll probably wait for the right time to come along, nothing says I can't use what is available to me to make that happen.

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As long as people know when to stop it's fine. I don't like it when grudges go OOC however, and there are plenty of people around who love doing that (I know I can't be the only person who has reminded himself that there is an IC/OOC line before I go and do something). I don't know if I have any grudges, because a grudge is usually over something particular... but there are plenty of people who I straight up do not like at all, for just about every reason under the sun. But usually if you have "beef" with me, it's not me who is holding onto it.

Tl;dr grudges are good for the game, but people who can't let go of them are even worse than not having grudges at all

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