An announcement from CA

[Wu Tang Clan]

Sig, I have a lot of respect for both you and CA, and I wish you nothing but luck. Just wish this could have been avoided, because as far as I can see, NG has a legitimate case for war.

Best of luck to both of you, I suppose.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1315795126' post='2799019']
You say some really silly stuff sometimes, ya know that?

I mean, it's not like we recently rolled with some allies against NPO - knowing full well that a great many alliances were gunning for us and would take the opportunity to get their shots in[/quote]

Which sounds impressive until you realize who the alliances "getting their shots in" actually were. Actually, given the billions that flowed your way, the hundreds of nation rulers who temporarily descended on Planet Bob who to draw fire and cause damage, you really weren't in much danger at all. Your real value was in offering yourselves up as a target, which worked out rather well in the end.

<snippage of irrelevant points>

[quote]Not like any of that threatens our infra which clearly we so value.[/quote]

If you don't value your infra, then why do you build in the cost of rebuilding it into your reparations demands? Why when a raid target resists are they quickly ganged up on and put down? Why is there an EoG list? Ahh, there's the rub. You care about your infra (and infra generally) just as much as the rest of us, if not more so. It's how you keep score.

Edited September 12, 2011 by ChairmanHal

[White Chocolate]

:salute: to Confederatio Aesir Very impressive. Best wishes and best of luck.

Congratulations to Methrage. I'm personally NOT a fan, but it looks like Non Grata took the bait big time so I'm sure you are thrilled. And now you have help (under the old enemy of my enemy is my friend theory anyway).

Non-Grata - congratulations are also in order for you. It's obvious to me (and looks like many leaders agree) that by going around making demands for 30 million and then oh so "graciously" bringing that amount down of every alliance who happened to have a member caught in Methrage's trap, that you're looking for an excuse to war. This way apparently you think you can justify being aggressive...well, we tried to work it out diplomatically. Have fun with your war, you've certainly put a lot of work into making it happen.

[mrwuss]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1315842365' post='2799248']

If you don't value your infra, then why do you build in the cost of rebuilding it into your reparations demands?
[/quote]


Because we can;
Because we get what we demand;
Because we want to;
Jelly?

Also we keep score in an entire different way. There is a prize system and I have posted the breakdown before. I am sure you read it and posted about it because you read and post about everything.


In other words you talk a lot and that is....well..that is all you do.

Is that how you keep score?

Edited September 12, 2011 by mrwuss

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1315845314' post='2799258']
:salute: to Confederatio Aesir Very impressive. Best wishes and best of luck.

Congratulations to Methrage. I'm personally NOT a fan, but it looks like Non Grata took the bait big time so I'm sure you are thrilled. And now you have help (under the old enemy of my enemy is my friend theory anyway).

Non-Grata - congratulations are also in order for you. It's obvious to me (and looks like many leaders agree) that by going around making demands for 30 million and then oh so "graciously" bringing that amount down of every alliance who happened to have a member caught in Methrage's trap, that you're looking for an excuse to war. This way apparently you think you can justify being aggressive...well, we tried to work it out diplomatically. Have fun with your war, you've certainly put a lot of work into making it happen.
[/quote]

I am seriously waiting for alliances like yours to get rogued and watch as the aid pours into said rogues. Then watch as you cry on the OWF about how it is wrong for alliances to aid rogues hitting SC. Because I doubt you would just sit back and go "oh my, looks like our rogue just gained $18 million in aid which is now being used to hurt my alliance members. Well, shucks. Looks like we can't do a thing about it. Drats."

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Stewie' timestamp='1315835042' post='2799226']
I see you're not listening to your Queen's Posting now about nobody from CA allowed to post in this thread apart from Sigrun?

It's interesting to watch how hardheaded all the parties running this conflict are.
[/quote]
She told me to stop posting in a different thread and even if she did refer to this thread, the post your quoting was made before she said that. Regardless you seem very confused on what you think your talking about,

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=105090&view=findpost&p=2799171

Either way I'm done with this thread unless Sigrun wants me to post more, as I don't think anything more needs to be said and these posts you guys are making really aren't worth responding to.

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1315845314' post='2799258']
:salute: to Confederatio Aesir Very impressive. Best wishes and best of luck.

Congratulations to Methrage. I'm personally NOT a fan, but it looks like Non Grata took the bait big time so I'm sure you are thrilled. And now you have help (under the old enemy of my enemy is my friend theory anyway).[/quote]
Thanks, fighting Non Grata is entertaining since they put so much effort in.

Its a shame CA got attacked, but I'm glad they didn't let NG push them around and thanks to that I finally found an alliance I'm willing to give my full loyalty to after leaving the FCC, while letting someone else lead the alliance. I fully trust my Queen Sigrun to make the correct decisions for the alliance, so I plan to stick with this alliance even after this war and hopefully together we can make it grow.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1315846661' post='2799260']
I am seriously waiting for alliances like yours to get rogued and watch as the aid pours into said rogues. Then watch as you cry on the OWF about how it is wrong for alliances to aid rogues hitting SC. Because I doubt you would just sit back and go "oh my, looks like our rogue just gained $18 million in aid which is now being used to hurt my alliance members. Well, shucks. Looks like we can't do a thing about it. Drats."
[/quote]
Most alliances don't even post anything about it when they get attacked by what they don't consider an alliance, they just deal with it. Its not like rogues usually present a huge problem for alliances, just being one nation and all.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Methrage

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1315846661' post='2799260']
I am seriously waiting for alliances like yours to get rogued and watch as the aid pours into said rogues. Then watch as you cry on the OWF about how it is wrong for alliances to aid rogues hitting SC. Because I doubt you would just sit back and go "oh my, looks like our rogue just gained $18 million in aid which is now being used to hurt my alliance members. Well, shucks. Looks like we can't do a thing about it. Drats."
[/quote]
Because The Sandwich Controversy is soooo comparable to Non Grata and its inherited legacy. Meth attacked NG as a response to a raid on MAD, it's not like NG were sitting around eating candy and Meth came to steal their lollies. Your little rant also ignores that fact that connected rogues from these alliances already are routinely aided, not sanctioned, and protected.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1315847363' post='2799265']
Because The Sandwich Controversy is soooo comparable to Non Grata and its inherited legacy. Meth attacked NG as a response to a raid on MAD, it's not like NG were sitting around eating candy and Meth came to steal their lollies. Your little rant also ignores that fact that connected rogues from these alliances already are routinely aided, not sanctioned, and protected.
[/quote]

And you are ignoring the fact that MAD and their protectors DB4D were handling the situation prior to Meth's arrival and all Meth did with his "response" was potentially screw up the diplomatic talks.

Also, please show me these "connected" rogues. I want proof of all these rogues that NG produces that are not sanctioned, are aided, and are protected by NG or any alliance for that matter.

And please don't even attempt to bring up tech-raiders hitting unprotected micro-alliances under what 10 members (?) cuz I really don't want to hear your opinion on that matter, as invariably mine is completely different and thus, you won't convince me of a thing and vice versa. SO what I want is tangible proof that is irrefutable and not subject to opinions. This could be a rogue hitting CoJ that is still flying the NG AA, has full aid slots filled with NG aid, and any CoJ counters to this rogue is met with counters from NG. That would be irrefutable proof of well, actually that would just be a full on war from the looks of it...

So, please back up your claims.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1315847076' post='2799262']
Most alliances don't even post anything about it when they get attacked by what they don't consider an alliance, they just deal with it. Its not like rogues usually present a huge problem for alliances, just being one nation and all.
[/quote]

From the looks of it, NG did not post for a while either until you got mass amounts of aid from various alliances. So, in an attempt to prevent any alliances from ending up making the mistake of aiding a rogue, they brought it to the OWF since, as been stated over and over ad nauseum, the govs of most alliances in CN frequent these boards and it would be the easiest way to get the message out so that further incidents can be averted.

But please keep making it appear like so much more than what it is. The only reason this is even as big of a deal as it is, is that Sigrun decided to war because of you. So again, continue to pride yourself on the fact that you have brought more destruction on 4 innocent nations and have attempted to further escalate this war by attempting to instigate war between GOONS members and CA in the hopes that Olympus will then have to war GOONS.

So, the only thing you are good for is trying to drag innocent alliances into your war. That is just pathetic. If you want to fight your war, then by all means do it but stop dragging innocent nations and alliances into it. Have you absolutely nothing of your former respectable self left? Or have you just become so desperate for attention that you are willing to ruin CN for anyone who is either stupid enough to support you, or has somehow managed to end up on your side?

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1315848875' post='2799271']
From the looks of it, NG did not post for a while either until you got mass amounts of aid from various alliances. So, in an attempt to prevent any alliances from ending up making the mistake of aiding a rogue, they brought it to the OWF since, as been stated over and over ad nauseum, the govs of most alliances in CN frequent these boards and it would be the easiest way to get the message out so that further incidents can be averted.

But please keep making it appear like so much more than what it is. The only reason this is even as big of a deal as it is, is that Sigrun decided to war because of you. So again, continue to pride yourself on the fact that you have brought more destruction on 4 innocent nations and have attempted to further escalate this war by attempting to instigate war between GOONS members and CA in the hopes that Olympus will then have to war GOONS.

So, the only thing you are good for is trying to drag innocent alliances into your war. That is just pathetic. If you want to fight your war, then by all means do it but stop dragging innocent nations and alliances into it. Have you absolutely nothing of your former respectable self left? Or have you just become so desperate for attention that you are willing to ruin CN for anyone who is either stupid enough to support you, or has somehow managed to end up on your side?
[/quote]
At the same time you claim these nations and alliances are innocent who did tech deals with me, you also argue they are deserving of being attacked and brought it upon themselves. Seems you just want to spin everything as a reason to hate me, but seems you're to dense to realize some people care about more than their infra and stats. Keep hugging your infra and complaining that others aren't doing the same as you, it makes you look like an idiot when you make all these claims about something you know nothing about and are uninvolved in. If you care about these innocent nations, do something to help them. I'm not causing them any harm and its not me any of them are angry with, its the alliance you seem to be so much in support of that they don't like. The only one who thinks I've ruined CN for anyone are people who have no clue what any of the nations involved are thinking, none of them have claimed I've ruined CN for them.

What happened to your old respectable self, before you started this nonsense of the smaller side in a war ruining CN for everyone if they fight back and don't only accept money from people who want it labeled as war aid? Or I am expected to even reject war aid from your distorted point of view who thinks Non Grata is correct in their double standards regarding tech deals and aid due to their size? Does them being bigger mean smaller alliances or nations fighting them should just PZI themselves and not fight back? Because Non Grata is bigger, they should get aid and the smaller alliance shouldn't? I just don't understand your logic at all, whats the point of Non Grata having a military if their opponents are expected to just roll over and not resist in order to let them win without doing any work? Why does the bigger alliance deserve aid and tech deals during the war, but the smaller alliance needs a handicap placed on them to make it a fair fight when fighting NG who is a sanctioned alliance? NG hasn't limited themselves to not involving others and fighting this on their own, so I don't see why you think they need even more extra advantages.

Also the first thread they made was before I got any aid, then they made a second one after I got some tech deals.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Methrage

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='mrwuss' timestamp='1315845481' post='2799259']
Because we can;
Because we get what we demand;
Because we want to;
Jelly?

Also we keep score in an entire different way. There is a prize system and I have posted the breakdown before. I am sure you read it and posted about it because you read and post about everything.

In other words you talk a lot and that is....well..that is all you do.

Is that how you keep score?[/quote]

[i]OOC: Actually I'm 4-0-1 in wars against GOONS across all browser-based gaming platforms, thanks for asking.[/i]

Your complaint is duly noted. Since I doubt you would roll without your friends, and I don't roll without mine, I guess we'll just have to wait to compare e-peens here.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1315848452' post='2799266']
And you are ignoring the fact that MAD and their protectors DB4D were handling the situation prior to Meth's arrival and all Meth did with his "response" was potentially screw up the diplomatic talks.[/quote]
No, I am not. Meth's effects on the MAD-NG talks are irrelevant to the fact that you are painting Meth's[i] [b]counte[/b]r[/i]-attack as an event which was not preciptitated by anything, when it was [i]in fact [/i]created by NG's policy of aggressively attacking random people for no reason.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1315848452' post='2799266']
Also, please show me these "connected" rogues. I want proof of all these rogues that NG produces that are not sanctioned, are aided, and are protected by NG or any alliance for that matter.

And please don't even attempt to bring up tech-raiders hitting unprotected micro-alliances under what 10 members (?) cuz I really don't want to hear your opinion on that matter, as invariably mine is completely different and thus, you won't convince me of a thing and vice versa. SO what I want is tangible proof that is irrefutable and not subject to opinions. This could be a rogue hitting CoJ that is still flying the NG AA, has full aid slots filled with NG aid, and any CoJ counters to this rogue is met with counters from NG. That would be irrefutable proof of well, actually that would just be a full on war from the looks of it...

So, please back up your claims.
[/quote]
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=91902 You're welcome. And here's a napkin for all that foam on your mouth.
You and I both know that when some dumbass from a large or well-connected alliance decides to go rogue he almost always gets some mixture of money, an OWF parade, and/or if in the course of the next few weeks decides maybe he wasn't so bored after all and wants to keep ruling a nation, he gets a free pass back into the alliance and the people he rogued get dick reps or revenge.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Schad]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1315846661' post='2799260']
I am seriously waiting for alliances like yours to get rogued and watch as the aid pours into said rogues. Then watch as you cry on the OWF about how it is wrong for alliances to aid rogues hitting SC. Because I doubt you would just sit back and go "oh my, looks like our rogue just gained $18 million in aid which is now being used to hurt my alliance members. Well, shucks. Looks like we can't do a thing about it. Drats."
[/quote]

The point she's making isn't that rogues should be aided -- intentionally or unintentionally -- or that such actions should be shrugged off without consequence. Rather, it's the fact that the beginning point of discussions included a figure out of proportion to the action which touched them off, namely a politically-unaware nation with the bad fortune to be on the only sphere where Methrage isn't sanctioned and who failed to do due diligence before undertaking a tech deal, and it was met with the suspicion and hostility that generally accompanies the feeling that you're being extorted.

I realize that the name of the game in negotiations around here has long been to start high with the intent of settling lower, but that has always struck me as extremely silly...it's a great way to haggle over a used car, but when you're asserting the fairness of your actions (as people inevitably do when asking reps), beginning at a point beyond that immediately creates the perception that the intent of the exercise is robbery at knifepoint, and rather than displaying comity, compromising lays bare the inequity of the starting position. You yourself should have seen this with the CSN-DT debacle; they asked for the moon (really, [i]any[/i] figure there was comically high), got everyone's back up, and it was a long and slow slog through nonsenseville from there. Pick a starting point that doubles as a fair ending point, build a good argument as to [i]why[/i] it's fair, and stick to it.

And as much fun as a little brinksmanship or a [s]di[/s] NS-measuring contest may be, rare is the occurrence where even one party comes out of it looking better than they went in.

[Pingu]

[quote name='Thorgrum' timestamp='1315765597' post='2798777']
Well I guess I loose the loto, you're an idiot. /shrug

It comes as a terrible shock by the way.
[/quote]

Losing your good opinion will cause me many sleepless nights, I'm certain, once I work out who you are and how much your opinion matters.

Also 'lose' and 'lotto' are the more conventional spellings. In case that matters to you.

[erikz]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1315850161' post='2799275']
No, I am not. Meth's effects on the MAD-NG talks are irrelevant to the fact that you are painting Meth's[i] [b]counte[/b]r[/i]-attack as an event which was not preciptitated by anything, when it was [i]in fact [/i]created by NG's policy of aggressively attacking random people for no reason.


[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=91902"]http://forums.cybern...showtopic=91902[/url] You're welcome. And here's a napkin for all that foam on your mouth.
You and I both know that when some dumbass from a large or well-connected alliance decides to go rogue he almost always gets some mixture of money, an OWF parade, and/or if in the course of the next few weeks decides maybe he wasn't so bored after all and wants to keep ruling a nation, he gets a free pass back into the alliance and the people he rogued get dick reps or revenge.
[/quote]

I must be missing the point; but where are your so called 'connected rogues' from NG? Or did they disappear in thin air?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1315849449' post='2799273']
At the same time you claim these nations and alliances are innocent who did tech deals with me, you also argue they are deserving of being attacked and brought it upon themselves. Seems you just want to spin everything as a reason to hate me, but seems you're to dense to realize some people care about more than their infra and stats. Keep hugging your infra and complaining that others aren't doing the same as you, it makes you look like an idiot when you make all these claims about something you know nothing about and are uninvolved in. If you care about these innocent nations, do something to help them. I'm not causing them any harm and its not me any of them are angry with, its the alliance you seem to be so much in support of that they don't like. The only one who thinks I've ruined CN for anyone are people who have no clue what any of the nations involved are thinking, none of them have claimed I've ruined CN for them.

What happened to your old respectable self, before you started this nonsense of the smaller side in a war ruining CN for everyone if they fight back and don't only accept money from people who want it labeled as war aid? Or I am expected to even reject war aid from your distorted point of view who thinks Non Grata is correct in their double standards regarding tech deals and aid due to their size? Does them being bigger mean smaller alliances or nations fighting them should just PZI themselves and not fight back? Because Non Grata is bigger, they should get aid and the smaller alliance shouldn't? I just don't understand your logic at all, whats the point of Non Grata having a military if their opponents are expected to just roll over and not resist in order to let them win without doing any work? Why does the bigger alliance deserve aid and tech deals during the war, but the smaller alliance needs a handicap placed on them to make it a fair fight when fighting NG who is a sanctioned alliance? NG hasn't limited themselves to not involving others and fighting this on their own, so I don't see why you think they need even more extra advantages.

Also the first thread they made was before I got any aid, then they made a second one after I got some tech deals.
[/quote]

The nations are innocent. That does not mean that they did not make a mistake and should pay reps for it. CA could have just paid reps and it would have ended. Instead Sigrun went to war, that is why CA is under attack.

As for me being an infra-hugger.... that is amusing. If I was an infra-hugger, my casualties would not be nearly so high and I would be sitting at a much higher tech and infra count than I currently am. I don't care about large sides or small sides. I don't really care about rogues except the ones who continuously act holier than thou. That is what you do. You cause the war, then blame the other side. You instigate !@#$, then when you get hit for it, you cry to the OWF about the injustice and how tiny you are....

You involve others, knowing that it could very well not end up going well for them and then blame the other side when it does not end up well. You know that people doing tech deals with you could end up getting attacked or having reps demanded of them, yet you purposefully send out messages in the hopes of getting innocent nations entangled in your war.

Also, you keep acting as if I stated anywhere that NG deserves aid or tech deals... Look throughout this thread and the other one and guess what, I never have. I have stated that you are more than capable of hitting anyone aiding or tech dealing with NG. Repeatedly I have stated just that. Yet, you repeatedly attempt to spin that to somehow mean that I am stating NG deserves aid and tech deals.

As for fair fight, who said anything about fair fights? For that matter, I have stated before that you yourself are by no means fighting fair. What with your wonder advantage and ability to nuke non-nuclear nations. Yet, you don't ever mention the completely unfair fight you bring to the nations you war...

Also, didn't MAD kick you out after you attempted to speak on their behalf, while they were in the middle of diplomatic talks with NG? I would presume that was due to not wanting you to get them or their protectors involved in a useless war.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='erikz' timestamp='1315850863' post='2799280']
I must be missing the point; but where are your so called 'connected rogues' from NG? Or did they disappear in thin air?
[/quote]
In 4 years, I've never understood why in a text conversation where a person can go and read something for himself I have to constantly catch people up, but here we are, if you and Doch can't read there are bound to be others.
[list] [*]Dochartaigh made a tirade wishing a pox of rogues to then be aided on TSC [snapback]2799260[/snapback][*]I pointed out that "connected rogues from these alliances" already get routinely aided.[snapback]2799265[/snapback][*]Dochartaigh, who apparently cannot distinguish between broad and specific arguments ("connected rogues" vs members of NG), challenges me to produce evidence that NG rogues get aid. It is a challenge that is senseless because I have not claimed that NG rogues in particular get aid, rather that "connected rogues from these alliances" do, therefore, I produced evidence of the claim that I [i]actually [/i]made. [snapback]2799275[/snapback][*] Then we get to you, who apparently also can't distinguish between broad arguments and specific examples (or you never read my original post) and your continuation of Dochartaigh's baseless challenge. I have never claimed that rogues specifically from NG have in the past received aid. [/list]

I have claimed that if some ruler from any alliance in power decides to go rogue, they can and likely will get aid, heaps of praise, and comfort from their in-power friends. And as a special bonus to you all, I have shown it to be true despite everyone already knowing it's true. I used CoJ and a former goon as an example, but I could have just as easily cited the Thriller nations, or that guy that has a boner for UPN. I am correct, it's not that shocking, just wrap your head around it.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1315850161' post='2799275']
No, I am not. Meth's effects on the MAD-NG talks are irrelevant to the fact that you are painting Meth's[i] [b]counte[/b]r[/i]-attack as an event which was not preciptitated by anything, when it was [i]in fact [/i]created by NG's policy of aggressively attacking random people for no reason.


http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=91902 You're welcome. And here's a napkin for all that foam on your mouth.
You and I both know that when some dumbass from a large or well-connected alliance decides to go rogue he almost always gets some mixture of money, an OWF parade, and/or if in the course of the next few weeks decides maybe he wasn't so bored after all and wants to keep ruling a nation, he gets a free pass back into the alliance and the people he rogued get dick reps or revenge.
[/quote]

Wait, so a situation that was being handled peacefully until Meth aggressively attacked NG is somehow NG being aggressive? Sure, NG tech raids... big whoop. NG also went to the peace table and was handling the situation (honestly have no clue if NG paid reps) instead of just telling MAD and DB4D to suck it up and eff off. Yeah, real aggressive there...


So, you have the example of 1 rogue being aided twice (well possible rogue, no proof in that thread that there were any actual wars between CoJ, RED, or Nemesis and Smacky) and you have a newb mistake since Stupid Newbie is an applicant AA and unless you are foaming at the mouth yourself, most tend to give the benefit of doubt to a newb.

Also, don't forget that your own precious Methrage has received far more aid than what you showed. Far more. Methrage, technically came from a well-connected AA (leader of Old Guard), had essentially gotten several free passes which culminated in TOP shelling out $90 million because alliances got tired of allowing Meth to go free without penalty, just to have him continue roguing. Hell, even after TOP shelled out $90 million to get him yet another pass, how does Meth repay TOP? He continues roguing again.

So please, do not equate Methrage with your typical rogues. Meth has rogued for what several months if not a year or some such. Been so long, I can't hardly remember him being in OG anymore. Now, Meth probably had the chance to join TOP after doing considerably more than $90 million in damage after weeks of roguing by that point, and that would have been that. Anyone who wanted revenge could do what if Meth had joined TOP? Nothing. People who wanted more than $90 million or were in an alliance Meth rogued that did not receive a share of that $90 million would have received no reps.

Hell for that matter, Meth could have rogued, caused damage, and joined probably any alliance out there after his first free pass, but he chose not to. Now, Meth won't get a free pass since every time he gets one, he just continues roguing. I doubt any alliance is gonna pay to get him a pass either since Meth has shown how he repays those efforts...

So, how about you stop foaming at the mouth over an alliance you obviously hate, and realize that Meth is a rather unique situation thanks entirely to Meth himself.

[erikz]

I'm sorry Schatt, but I missed the whole point of 'said' discussion because of my non-native english... I guess. You go on and discuss with Doch.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='erikz' timestamp='1315851828' post='2799286']
I'm sorry Schatt, but I missed the whole point of 'said' discussion because of my non-native english... I guess. You go on and discuss with Doch.
[/quote]
Sorry I got kind of !@#$%* with you, I just can't stand when people put words in my mouth especially when I'm speaking plainly, but you're not to blame.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1315851794' post='2799285']
Been so long, I can't hardly remember him being in OG anymore.
[/quote]
I'll just reply to this one last post to point out I was never in OG, which is why you shouldn't remember that. Almost feel sorry for you with how delusional you are and how much nonsense you spout while being completely wrong. You don't even seem like the same person I knew back in the day, seems you've lost your mind and become an entirely different person who is very confused and looking for someone to take his frustration out on.

I forgive you for being stupid, but I will never respect you again. Just for comparison on how silly you are, even kriekfreak and Mr. Teets from Non Grata who I'm at war with I respect a lot more than you and hold a higher opinion of them, compared to someone like you who just talks nonsense without any of it mattering. At least their posts make sense and they don't try inserting themselves in situations which have nothing to do with them, then try acting like they know all about it while having no idea what they're talking about. (which is what you do)

Edited September 12, 2011 by Methrage

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1315851794' post='2799285']
Wait, so a situation that was being handled peacefully until Meth aggressively attacked NG is somehow NG being aggressive? [/quote]
Tech raids are aggressive attacks, full story at 11.

Doch, you're loopy. Get some sleep.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Schad' timestamp='1315850214' post='2799276']
The point she's making isn't that rogues should be aided -- intentionally or unintentionally -- or that such actions should be shrugged off without consequence. Rather, it's the fact that the beginning point of discussions included a figure out of proportion to the action which touched them off, namely a politically-unaware nation with the bad fortune to be on the only sphere where Methrage isn't sanctioned and who failed to do due diligence before undertaking a tech deal, and it was met with the suspicion and hostility that generally accompanies the feeling that you're being extorted.

I realize that the name of the game in negotiations around here has long been to start high with the intent of settling lower, but that has always struck me as extremely silly...it's a great way to haggle over a used car, but when you're asserting the fairness of your actions (as people inevitably do when asking reps), beginning at a point beyond that immediately creates the perception that the intent of the exercise is robbery at knifepoint, and rather than displaying comity, compromising lays bare the inequity of the starting position. You yourself should have seen this with the CSN-DT debacle; they asked for the moon (really, [i]any[/i] figure there was comically high), got everyone's back up, and it was a long and slow slog through nonsenseville from there. Pick a starting point that doubles as a fair ending point, build a good argument as to [i]why[/i] it's fair, and stick to it.

And as much fun as a little brinksmanship or a [s]di[/s] NS-measuring contest may be, rare is the occurrence where even one party comes out of it looking better than they went in.
[/quote]

I have heard that the number started at $9 million and went to $30 million (or $15 million per CA nation who aided Meth/Nicholai). This has been confirmed by Kriekfreak- [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=105101&view=findpost&p=2798143"]here[/url]. So, what part of $9 million is such an extravagant number? It does not seem that large or horrible to me. Nor does it seem like they went super large, wanting to negotiate down to a certain number. Instead, they went with a standard rate aka 3x the amount for reps. This could have been paid off in a single day without any real harm to Sigrun or Spycap.

Had NG started off with something like $90 million, I would see your point. But that simply did not happen.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1315851690' post='2799284']
In 4 years, I've never understood why in a text conversation where a person can go and read something for himself I have to constantly catch people up, but here we are, if you and Doch can't read there are bound to be others.
[list] [*]Dochartaigh made a tirade wishing a pox of rogues to then be aided on TSC [snapback]2799260[/snapback][*]I pointed out that "connected rogues from these alliances" already get routinely aided.[snapback]2799265[/snapback][*]Dochartaigh, who apparently cannot distinguish between broad and specific arguments ("connected rogues" vs members of NG), challenges me to produce evidence that NG rogues get aid. It is a challenge that is senseless because I have not claimed that NG rogues in particular get aid, rather that "connected rogues from these alliances" do, therefore, I produced evidence of the claim that I [i]actually [/i]made. [snapback]2799275[/snapback][*] Then we get to you, who apparently also can't distinguish between broad arguments and specific examples (or you never read my original post) and your continuation of Dochartaigh's baseless challenge. I have never claimed that rogues specifically from NG have in the past received aid. [/list]

I have claimed that if some ruler from any alliance in power decides to go rogue, they can and likely will get aid, heaps of praise, and comfort from their in-power friends. And as a special bonus to you all, I have shown it to be true despite everyone already knowing it's true. I used CoJ and a former goon as an example, but I could have just as easily cited the Thriller nations, or that guy that has a boner for UPN. I am correct, it's not that shocking, just wrap your head around it.
[/quote]

I would wager, the reason for myself and erikz specifying NG, is that this thread is about NG and you are attempting to badmouth NG. Yet, you cannot come up with a single example of NG doing these actions. Yes, GOONS did them, Thriller did them, and who knows who else. But, you are complaining that NG is somehow evil because they are demanding reps and because [i][b]OTHER[/B][/I] alliances did what you claim, NG somehow cannot demand reps... That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I don't honestly care what other alliances do since we are discussing what NG is doing, and you are somehow making a claim against NG while using evidence of alliances that are not NG doing something.

So, I don't care if non-NG alliances aid rogues or protect them, since you are claiming that NG is somehow accountable for !@#$ like that, then you at least have to provide evidence that NG did it. I stated what I did because the leader (am fairly certain White Chocolate is the leader of SC) is basically going around stating it is okay to aid rogues, so I simply stated that I cannot wait for those words to bite her in the ass, so to speak. I tire of people who state how okay it is for such and such actions, but almost all know full well that should such and such actions occur to them or their alliance, they would be going on and on about how evil it is.

Shoot, look at you. You stated how wrong it was for GOONS to aid Smacky as he warred against CoJ, and yet here, you are stating that CA was in the right for aiding Meth against NG and that NG was in the wrong for demanding reps and warring CA.

So have you compromised your principals simply because it is NG you wish to rage against Schatt?

As for putting words in your mouth... Not really. As stated before, this situation involves NG and you are making a claim against NG by using the actions of alliances other than NG. That does not satisfy your own claim really. Sure you proved yourself correct that other alliances have aided, protected, and not sanctioned rogues in the past. But I could bring about a ton of examples where alliances have demanded reps from those who aided rogues, have not protected rogues, and have sanctioned rogues. All in all, it proves absolutely nothing unless you can show proof of NG aiding, protecting, and not sanctioning a rogue, since NG's actions against Meth/CA are what is at the heart of the matter.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1315846661' post='2799260']
I am seriously waiting for alliances like yours to get rogued and watch as the aid pours into said rogues. Then watch as you cry on the OWF about how it is wrong for alliances to aid rogues hitting SC. Because I doubt you would just sit back and go "oh my, looks like our rogue just gained $18 million in aid which is now being used to hurt my alliance members. Well, shucks. Looks like we can't do a thing about it. Drats."
[/quote]

In practice, alliances like either of ours can easily be in no position to do anything about it even should we choose to, and are going to be much more interested in trying to make a new friend than starting a war over a tech deal. At the very least, we would have to rely on our protector, which might strain or weaken that link, to even mount a credible threat. And we dont always have protectors. I existed on my AA for months before I ever had a protector, and for months afterwards under the 'protection' of someone that in practice I had to protect myself.

Even with a good protector who doesnt mind to back you, is it really worth it to risk it backfiring? Being aggressive and trying to dictate policies to another alliance, even one your own size or smaller, can result in a little tech deal turning into a diplomatic loss and/or even a flood of direct aid. It makes no sense for us to even attempt to enforce this policy, with the one exception of when CoJ did it entirely to make a point for their propaganda effort.

In practice it's a prohibition that the powerful can enforce on their enemies, while remaining immune to themselves, to tilt the playing field and make sure that the game of world politics isnt worth playing for anyone but those already on top.

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1315847076' post='2799262']
Either way I'm done with this thread unless Sigrun wants me to post more, as I don't think anything more needs to be said and these posts you guys are making really aren't worth responding to.
[/quote]

I noticed you posted once more after this. I know you are being baited. I still dont want to see you take the bait. When you say something like this you need to stick to it.


[quote name='Schad' timestamp='1315850214' post='2799276']
The point she's making isn't that rogues should be aided -- intentionally or unintentionally -- or that such actions should be shrugged off without consequence. Rather, it's the fact that the beginning point of discussions included a figure out of proportion to the action which touched them off, namely a politically-unaware nation with the bad fortune to be on the only sphere where Methrage isn't sanctioned and who failed to do due diligence before undertaking a tech deal, and it was met with the suspicion and hostility that generally accompanies the feeling that you're being extorted. [/quote]

Thank you. Also I dont expect you to read every post in the thread so this isnt a criticism, but you appear to have missed the fact that it wasnt methrage who was aided, it was nic. Nic has a very small non-nuclear nation that was on Meth's AA. Nic had no wars going on at the time. Meth had wars everywhere. Nic was on his colour, unsanctioned. Meth was on grey, and sanctioned across the board. And that was the last shipment of an already suspended deal.

Honestly as a matter of principle I would hold that I was dead to my rights to keep the deal going despite the war, unless they were going to offer me a little help finding replacement sellers at the very freaking least. But I was genuinely trying to avoid this fight, and I like NG, so I never made any sort of demand like that. They came at me with 'you are going to pay reps are we are going to f you up' essentially, which I realise is the expected thing on planet bob in this day and age when an alliance that has thousands of nukes faces one showing 10 as soon as they know the protector wont get involved, but it still had to be a miscalculation, if they love their infra in any sense whatsoever. There was just no way on Admins multicoloured earth that approach was ever going to be productive with me, and even if no one remembered me personally I know several of their close allies that would have told them this was true if it was ever mentioned. It's a fact. Microalliances get no respect.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1315793095' post='2799000']
I never figured you for a high school lunchroom politics sorta guy, but if you say you're that shallow, then who am I to argue?
[/quote]
In a multi-front, global conflict, it's bad for one's health to dictate every little detail or impose on people who didn't really have to help you. Besides, I was more concerned with the core negotiations.