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You do realize that just because you have a policy to distinguish tech deals from war aiding does not mean that other alliances can discern between the two based on an observation. It requires they actually trust you not to be war aiding using tech dealing as a cover and unless otherwise labeled as you have pointed it.. can be indistinguishable. Not to say you were, but how would anyone know if you were lieing?

Additionally, from what I understand, the vast bulk of the world to my knowledge is not in line with your definition of war aid and uses something along the lines of

1. Any aid given an enemy state during a time of war, even as part of a tech deal.

Given that, doesn't it make sense to take additional precautions when you are aware one particular state is frequently involved in war when involved in the process of aiding it?

I'm sorry if my line of inquiry upsets you.. it's just that from my perspective a little caution could have saved you the entire conflict. Asking the bulk of the world to change its definitions for you in a way that trusts you blindly to label your aids truthfully also seems highly unlikely. If you simply didn't send aid to those involved in war no one would have to question your motives!

Edited by Maelstrom Vortex
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[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1315774947' post='2798826']
You do realize that just because you have a policy to distinguish tech deals from war aiding does not mean that other alliances can discern between the two based on an observation. It requires they actually trust you not to be war aiding using tech dealing as a cover and unless otherwise labeled as you have pointed it.. can be indistinguishable. Not to say you were, but how would anyone know if you were lieing?[/quote]

In fact it was clear at a glance to them from looking at the aid history that it was a tech deal. That was never in question. They claimed the right to demand tribute for our action despite this.

Had they any doubt, I would have been happy to explain how the deal was structured and exactly what each transaction was for, and I might well have even offered screenshots that established how and when the deal was agreed to and what its paramaters were. This really isnt rocket science.

Had I not [i]already[/i] suspended our dealings before they even approached me, that would have been something we could have discussed as well - it is our default policy that war is no reason to stop a tech deal, but that doesnt mean that we could not have done so as a result of a [i]request [/i]from a friend and after full consideration of the circumstances. However, again, the round was completed and the deal suspended before they even spoke with me, so in this case none of this even came up.

[quote]Additionally, from what I understand, the vast bulk of the world to my knowledge is not in line with your definition of war aid and uses something along the lines of

1. Any aid given an enemy state during a time of war, even as part of a tech deal.[/quote]

The working definition inherited from the bad old days is basically that, with the additional and usually unspoken proviso that only the smaller or less influential party needs to fear interruption in their commerce, while the larger and more influential one can continue to import or export tech without restriction.

We have argued that this was both manifestly unfair and ultimately detrimental to planet bob as a whole. Even those who benefit from it in one instance may well lose from it the next, and in the long run it makes us all poorer.

[quote]Given that, doesn't it make sense to take additional precautions when you are aware one particular state is frequently involved in war when involved in the process of aiding it?[/quote]

It does and I do. As I have detailed in my previous posts in this thread, I went to rather extraordinary lengths to avoid this problem, and I bent my own policies just as far as they would go.

I am a very reasonable person but if you push me farther than I can go I will push back, and I will do it with all I have.

[quote]I'm sorry if my line of inquiry upsets you.. [/quote]

Not at all. In a thread cluttered with partisan denunciations and simple lies about me, you appear to be examining and questioning the situation with an open mind. That is all I ask.

-Sig

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[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1315774947' post='2798826']
You do realize that just because you have a policy to distinguish tech deals from war aiding does not mean that other alliances can discern between the two based on an observation. It requires they actually trust you not to be war aiding using tech dealing as a cover and unless otherwise labeled as you have pointed it.. can be indistinguishable. Not to say you were, but how would anyone know if you were lieing?

Additionally, from what I understand, the vast bulk of the world to my knowledge is not in line with your definition of war aid and uses something along the lines of

1. Any aid given an enemy state during a time of war, even as part of a tech deal.

Given that, doesn't it make sense to take additional precautions when you are aware one particular state is frequently involved in war when involved in the process of aiding it?

I'm sorry if my line of inquiry upsets you.. it's just that from my perspective a little caution could have saved you the entire conflict. Asking the bulk of the world to change its definitions for you in a way that trusts you blindly to label your aids truthfully also seems highly unlikely. If you simply didn't send aid to those involved in war no one would have to question your motives!
[/quote]
During my entire war with ODN, lasting a little over 2 months, I kept all my slots busy doing tech deals with various alliances. ODN didn't complain, MK didn't complain even when I was fighting them. Its just a few alliances who don't know how to war right without getting help from everyone else that complains about it.

Edited by Methrage
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[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1315777438' post='2798848']
During my entire war with ODN, lasting a little over 2 months, I kept all my slots busy doing tech deals with various alliances. ODN didn't complain, MK didn't complain even when I was fighting them. Its just a few alliances who don't know how to war right without getting help from everyone else that complains about it.
[/quote]
I don't even remember fighting you. That said, MK has on more than one occasion requested reparations in situations like these. Hell, I did so personally in the last war (and got them without any hassle).

Sending money, for any reason or purpose, to somebody who is at war is to support their war. It doesn't matter if it's a straight gift or consideration for some exchange (trades, tech, etc.). The argument that one can innocently tech deal with a nation at war is absurd. They're at war. What the hell do you think they're going to use the money on?

Have fun, Non Grata.

Edited by Ardus
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[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1315778635' post='2798855']
I don't even remember fighting you. That said, MK has on more than one occasion requested reparations in situations like these. Hell, I did so personally in the last war (and got them without any hassle).

Sending money, for any reason or purpose, to somebody who is at war is to support their war. It doesn't matter if it's a straight gift or consideration for some exchange (trades, tech, etc.). The argument that one can innocently tech deal with a nation at war is absurd. They're at war. What the hell do you think they're going to use the money on?

Have fun, Non Grata.
[/quote]
I remember you contacting me about my signature on the peace agreement, but after ODN attacked me I mostly just fought them in that war.

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[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1315671461' post='2798101']
[b]We engaged in several discussions with representatives of NG over the past few days, and bent just as far as we could bend in order to satisfy them. They refuse to be satisfied with anything other than a payment of tribute and an acknowledgement of wrongdoing.[/b]
[/quote]

The bolded is and always has been the norm for things like this. It doesn't matter the circumstances, you gave someone who was actively at war with their alliance money. Money which will be used to stave off bill lock and/or buy more soldiers, cruise missiles, and nukes that are getting tossed at their nation.

They have every right to demand some sort of compensation for the extra damage they're taking thanks to your negligence. If you refuse to do so, it's always been an act of war.

You made a mistake. As innocent as that mistake might have been, mistakes have consequences, if you're unwilling to accept them than you rolled the dice and lost and deserve everything that you get.

There's a time and place for the persecution card, and pulling it out here just makes you look silly. The general procedure for things like this is:

1) Nation from Alliance A aids Rogue at war with Alliance B.

2) B asks A what's up and finds the reason for the aid.

3) B asks A to either pay reps for the extra damage, expel the member who aided or both.

4) All else fails, B rolls A.

Looks like they followed the playbook to the letter and your naivete blinded you at the worst possible moment.

Edited by deth2munkies
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[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1315784419' post='2798907']
The bolded is and always has been the norm for things like this. It doesn't matter the circumstances, you gave someone who was actively at war with their alliance money. Money which will be used to stave off bill lock and/or buy more soldiers, cruise missiles, and nukes that are getting tossed at their nation.

They have every right to demand some sort of compensation for the extra damage they're taking thanks to your negligence. If you refuse to do so, it's always been an act of war.

You made a mistake. As innocent as that mistake might have been, mistakes have consequences, if you're unwilling to accept them than you rolled the dice and lost and deserve everything that you get.
[/quote]
I could be wrong, but I don't think Nicholai had any active wars with Non Grata when the money was sent for the tech deal.

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[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1315784523' post='2798909']
I could be wrong, but I don't think Nicholai had any active wars with Non Grata when the money was sent for the tech deal.
[/quote]
I won't pretend to know the situation as I recently arrived back here, but he was still supporting you, yes?

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[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1315784786' post='2798911']
I won't pretend to know the situation as I recently arrived back here, but he was still supporting you, yes?
[/quote]
I think he was in bill lock not doing anything. He didn't launch more wars on Non Grata after the tech deal until Non Grata attacked him first as well.

Edited by Methrage
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[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1315784838' post='2798912']
I think he was in bill lock not doing anything. He didn't launch more wars on Non Grata after the tech deal until Non Grata attacked him first as well.
[/quote]
Well if he was still at war and in bill lock, that'd make the aid all the more aggravating as he wouldn't be in bill-lock anymore, would he? You can still be at war with someone without launching any more for a while, as long as they're still attacking you. Every rogue ever has demonstrated that fact.

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[quote name='Jgoods45' timestamp='1315770615' post='2798802']
This will not be happening anytime soon from our end. Deal with it. Also, what the hell did those two alliances ever do to you? God damn you Omni. :mad:
[/quote]
[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1315771302' post='2798806']
Those two alliances don't have treaties to SF/XX. It's all I could think of.
[/quote]

I know I promised to leave the thread, but i just wanted to answer this one last question. One of the alliances that now make up NG, Poison Clan, were just general dicks. They enjoyed calling people cowards and decided to put me in that grouping, even though the event they referred to happened to be almost identical to what they done to NEW. iFOK and Hydra both however were great people and good alliances. iFOK always treated IAA in an honorable way during the last war and I appreciate that, kriekfreak. Mr. Teets from Hydra is also an old friend. I'm sorry to see you guys fall in with such pathetic people as PC. You guys really aren't all that bad (especially not as bad as GOOONS). It's still fun to stir you up ever so often though.

GOONS however is in a class completely on their own. They've bullied friends of mine, and everytime I think they may actually be ok people something happens to turn that idea on its head. GOONS will only pick on the weak and down-trodden. This is proved in their most recent display of cowardice with DT. Recently, Sardonic has made threats of me getting "the justice I deserve" or something like that. Sardonic, however, like most GOONS will only do anything once he's completely sure it will not be at the cost of infra. Therefore, I will probably be waiting for my "justice" for a pretty long while. I do like that guy Timberland though. He doesn't act or seem like a normal GOON.

Also, for the record I like several alliances without SF or XX treaties. TLR, GRE, GATO, LoSS, DT, AzN, and NSO are great alliances who are not treatied to any SF or XX members.

Like I said in this thread, I think your right in your stance on aid NG. Good luck with your wars and have fun. :)

Edited by Omniscient1
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[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1315773719' post='2798819']
And similarly, we have posted our own policies here many times, as well as explaining them in person with representatives of Non Grata. It is and has always been our policy to distinguish tech deals from war aid, using basic common sense and readily available evidence. It is our policy that we do not suspend tech deals because of war, and that we do not expect anyone else to do so either. It is our policy that we will not pay reps for a tech deal, period. This has all been publicly posted at one time or another, it was very publically discussed and explained back when Methrage was fighting ODN, and it was explained again to NG representatives in person. So you are going to have to explain to me how you figure NG policy, unilaterally declared, is binding on us, but our own policies, [b]long[/b] predating their declaration, are [b]not[/b] similarly binding on them.



The fact is I liked NG and bent way out of my normal pattern to avoid conflict with NG, starting with the suspension of trade with Methrage on my own initiative before it could become an issue. If they had been able to show similar flexibility, this war would have been averted. Instead they demanded concessions they knew I was unable to make, and then initiated warfare against me when I inevitably declined.

-Sig
[/quote]

Actually, your policy does not predate anything. It has long since been the custom that aiding a rogue is a valid cb for war or for the demanding of reps. It has been this way for years and long predates any policy you created and any policy NG stated on the OWF. It is common knowledge for most astute players. It is wonderful you decided to beat your own path, but don't think that it will sit well with others.

Not to mention, you shelled out an extra 1.5 million per deal when you did tech deals with Methrage. That is 1.5 million more of a profit, aka war aid, from dealing with you. Don't try and wrap yourself in the same martyr cocoon that Meth uses, it won't really work.

You were more than capable of making the concessions but fact is, you wanted to demand what you wanted from NG. You continued to deal with rogues as even Meth acknowledged that his alliance mate was at war with NG. So stating that you should not be hit because you ceased aiding Meth means nothing while you continue to aid another rogue at war with NG.

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[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1315785223' post='2798920']
Well if he was still at war and in bill lock, that'd make the aid all the more aggravating as he wouldn't be in bill-lock anymore, would he? You can still be at war with someone without launching any more for a while, as long as they're still attacking you. Every rogue ever has demonstrated that fact.
[/quote]
If they don't actively keep him at war, they can't expect people to know they still consider him at war with them. With me a new nation was created to declare on me even after I was ZI/ZT with less than 10 NS to keep me at war, they could of done the same for him if they cared so much about people doing tech deals with him.

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As I've touched on previously, I find this entire discussion to be quite amusing given the response by Non Grata's friends and allies to CoJ's position on tech dealing during war:

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1299554867' post='2656146']
How long does the ODN plan to endanger its protectorate by engaging them in their war of aggression against the Justitian Mystery by the solicitation of aid during war? The Flood Empire has refused counsel that aiding an alliance at war is an act of war, has the ODN apprised those they claim to protect that it is so, so that The Flood might make their own decision on the matter knowing the full scope of their decision?
[/quote]
[b]joracy[/b] [snapback]2656181[/snapback]
Actually, it's really quite simple. If anybody touches our protectorate, there will be serious ramifications. The fact that nearly our entire upper tier isn't actually involved in this war, and has nothing better to do then tech deal isn't really our fault.
[b]Banksy[/b][snapback]2656236[/snapback]
Pro-Tip: Don't bother replying to Schattenmann. That way madness lies.
[b]Il Impero Romano[/b][snapback]2656249[/snapback]
You're kidding with this stuff, right?
[b]Jgoods45[/b][snapback]2656322[/snapback]
I sense drama. :3
I hope this drama spreads.
So we can show off how a full chaining MDAP works. :3
[b]Bryne Farrior[/b][snapback]2656369[/snapback]
Geez, just let them tech deal. If you could fight ODN proper than this wouldn't be an issue. Such as it is, it seems you're taking frustration derived from your own inadequacy against someone who doesn't really deserve it.
[b]flak attack[/b][snapback]2656421[/snapback]
The fact that this discussion is even happening is, to be blunt, one of the dumbest things I have ever seen in my time here. Surely you all have something more to worry about than this.
[b]neneko[/b][snapback]2656497[/snapback]
Haha this is rich. Hoh and Shatt threatening micros when they can't touch the protector. High morals only when convenient. Not that I expect anything less from that dynamic duo.
[b]Fyfe XIV[/b][snapback]2656529[/snapback]
I guess you've realized you can't beat them in the battlefield so you resort to trying to scare them away on the OWF. My, how you have fallen.
[b]mrwuss[/b][snapback]2656674[/snapback]
Shut up Schat, you are such a worthless windbag.
You are the king of using so many words to express your stupidity.
Just take yourself and your equally useless AA to a corner and sit there until you get called on.
(inc NO U)
[b]Daikos[/b][snapback]2656832[/snapback]
This thread went from zero to stupid quite quickly.
Best of luck to TFE, you've found a great protector.

Of course, it's not as if anyone ever believed that any of you were making principled arguments, or even that any of you are people of principle, so at the very least, it's not like anyone is surprised by the timely change of heart. But, to go from forcing an apology from CoJ for informing one alliance that tech dealing with another alliance during war is an act of war to cheering on Non Grata for declaring war to stop the same thing is quite a spectacle. Quite an illustration of the times, indeed.

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1315778635' post='2798855']
Sending money, for any reason or purpose, to somebody who is at war is to support their war. It doesn't matter if it's a straight gift or consideration for some exchange (trades, tech, etc.). The argument that one can innocently tech deal with a nation at war is absurd. They're at war. What the hell do you think they're going to use the money on?

Have fun, Non Grata.
[/quote]
Why, Ardus, it's so nice to see you've changed your position and seen the light.
[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1304394308' post='2704610']
[center][size="5"][b]The Overtime Accords[/b][/size][/center]
[b]Apology[/b]

CoJ recognizes that their actions in this war, including the infiltration of a spy into ODN, and the threatening/misleading of the ODN applicant pool and ODN protectorate were wrong. CoJ hereby apologizes for said behavior.
[b]Signatures[/b]

[u][b]For the Victorious Forces[/b][/u]
[b]For the Mushroom Kingdom[/b]

King: Archon
Crown Prince: lebubu
Prince: Ardus
[/quote]

Edited by Schattenmann
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[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1315785452' post='2798926']
If they don't actively keep him at war, they can't expect people to know they still consider him at war with them. With me a new nation was created to declare on me even after I was ZI/ZT with less than 10 NS to keep me at war, they could of done the same for him if they cared so much about people doing tech deals with him.
[/quote]

That is plain stupid. He was residing on an AA that is considered a rogue AA. If he wanted to not be considered still at war with NG, he should have left your AA, put NG POW there instead, and then contact NG stating he won't have anything to do with you anymore until your war with NG is over with.

Unlike you, NG may not want to needless harm nations and may have tried giving him a chance to end this useless war. Instead, Sigrun sent him aid so that he could rebuild. Since he had yet to state he was out of the war, he was attacked as he was once again a threat.

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[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1315785452' post='2798926']
If they don't actively keep him at war, they can't expect people to know they still consider him at war with them. With me a new nation was created to declare on me even after I was ZI/ZT with less than 10 NS to keep me at war, they could of done the same for him if they cared so much about people doing tech deals with him.
[/quote]

That may have been true, but the wording of the OP (declaring the aid an "oversight" rather than contending they did not know) makes it seem as if they were well aware of Nicholai's status with NG.

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[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1315784523' post='2798909']
I could be wrong, but I don't think Nicholai had any active wars with Non Grata when the money was sent for the tech deal.
[/quote]

He didnt. He wasnt under sanction either. I checked and I was thinking about whether or not to cancel it the night before IIRC. I hadnt had time to read every page of that thread and keep up with every development, and I remember thinking Nic might have peaced out separately already, being such a non-threat compared to you. Ultimately Spycap was simply much more prompt sending than I expected (every time before I think I have had to remind him to send the cash) and I logged in one morning having decided to cancel that last 50 tech until I had time to figure out what was up for sure, only to find the deal a fait accompli.

Also:

[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1315785940' post='2798932']
That may have been true, but the wording of the OP (declaring the aid an "oversight" rather than contending they did not know) makes it seem as if they were well aware of Nicholai's status with NG.
[/quote]

I was honestly unsure of his status as of that moment - see above. Spycap knew absolutely nothing about any of it. He may or may not have checked for wars before sending, if he had he wouldnt have seen any.

Edited by Sigrun Vapneir
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[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1315785987' post='2798933']
I was honestly unsure of his status as of that moment - see above. Spycap knew absolutely nothing about any of it. He may or may not have checked for wars before sending, if he had he wouldnt have seen any.
[/quote]
While this may be true. The old adage "Better safe than sorry." Holds true here as much or moreso than everywhere else. You should have checked, especially if he was under a hostile AA. It's also your job to take ownership of oversights or other mistakes like this and take the consequences without playing the persecution card.

The only thing I'm wondering is how, if you were a protectorate, you did not bring this up with your protectors earlier because they would have told you everything I have BEFORE this whole damn war got started.

This reeks of a newbie mistake by a newbie alliance boiling out of control. The faster you realize your mistake, make it right, and move on, the faster you can get back to running your alliance.

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1315785692' post='2798929']
As I've touched on previously, I find this entire discussion to be quite amusing given the response by Non Grata's friends and allies to CoJ's position on tech dealing during war:


[b]joracy[/b] [snapback]2656181[/snapback]
Actually, it's really quite simple. If anybody touches our protectorate, there will be serious ramifications. The fact that nearly our entire upper tier isn't actually involved in this war, and has nothing better to do then tech deal isn't really our fault.
[b]Banksy[/b][snapback]2656236[/snapback]
Pro-Tip: Don't bother replying to Schattenmann. That way madness lies.
[b]Il Impero Romano[/b][snapback]2656249[/snapback]
You're kidding with this stuff, right?
[b]Jgoods45[/b][snapback]2656322[/snapback]
I sense drama. :3
I hope this drama spreads.
So we can show off how a full chaining MDAP works. :3
[b]Bryne Farrior[/b][snapback]2656369[/snapback]
Geez, just let them tech deal. If you could fight ODN proper than this wouldn't be an issue. Such as it is, it seems you're taking frustration derived from your own inadequacy against someone who doesn't really deserve it.
[b]flak attack[/b][snapback]2656421[/snapback]
The fact that this discussion is even happening is, to be blunt, one of the dumbest things I have ever seen in my time here. Surely you all have something more to worry about than this.
[b]neneko[/b][snapback]2656497[/snapback]
Haha this is rich. Hoh and Shatt threatening micros when they can't touch the protector. High morals only when convenient. Not that I expect anything less from that dynamic duo.
[b]Fyfe XIV[/b][snapback]2656529[/snapback]
I guess you've realized you can't beat them in the battlefield so you resort to trying to scare them away on the OWF. My, how you have fallen.
[b]mrwuss[/b][snapback]2656674[/snapback]
Shut up Schat, you are such a worthless windbag.
You are the king of using so many words to express your stupidity.
Just take yourself and your equally useless AA to a corner and sit there until you get called on.
(inc NO U)
[b]Daikos[/b][snapback]2656832[/snapback]
This thread went from zero to stupid quite quickly.
Best of luck to TFE, you've found a great protector.

Of course, it's not as if anyone ever believed that any of you were making principled arguments, or even that any of you are people of principle, so at the very least, it's not like anyone is surprised by the timely change of heart. But, to go from forcing an apology from CoJ for informing one alliance that tech dealing with another alliance during war is an act of war to cheering on Non Grata for declaring war to stop the same thing is quite a spectacle. Quite an illustration of the times, indeed.


Why, Ardus, it's so nice to see you've changed your position and seen the light.
[/quote]

Looking for the people who you quoted and the alliances they are in, I'm not surprised that they changed their opinion on the subject so fast. Consistence is not their strength.

Edited by D34th
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[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1315773719' post='2798819']
Do you see the difference yet?
[/quote]

No, and here's why; You have aided a nation who has seen it fit to attack an alliance. An alliance that has clearly stated any aid sent to Methrage during this conflict would be seen as an act of war by the aiding party. What [i]your[/i] policy is on Aid during war is inconsequential. You made the decision to aid and trade with Methrage knowing full well that it would be considered an act of war by Non Grata, you refused to pay the fine for your interference then as a result you are now being attacked by Non Grata. You sent aid to a rogue and now you're feeling the repercussions. No amount of long-winded !@#$%^&* excuses or half-assed explanations can justify what you have done. You are in the wrong.

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[quote name='Bluestrike' timestamp='1315788637' post='2798948']
Whatever. CA isn't even an alliance. It had three members. Therefore, you don't have the sway of real alliances.
[/quote]
It has 4 members now, but you seem pretty uneducated so I doubt anyone really cares what you think.

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[quote name='Bluestrike' timestamp='1315789056' post='2798953']
Four members isn't even a trade circle, let alone an alliance.
[/quote]
I'm not sure why you think how many people are in an alliance is relevant to whether the alliance exists, but you can continue living in your fantasy world where words don't have a set meaning.

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[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1315789271' post='2798955']
I'm not sure why you think how many people are in an alliance is relevant to whether the alliance exists, but you can continue living in your fantasy world where words don't have a set meaning.
[/quote]

Well, lets see CA use their diplomatic relevance to save your sorry self, if they are so meaningful.

Edited by Bluestrike
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