An announcement from CA

[kriekfreak]

It's actually 15mil, but I digress. I think we all made our stances clear. Both our alliances agreed on the reps and that is it. Next time NG raids a high-profile rogue in war with SC or BN, we'll pay 15mil too. Sounds fair? I think it does.

[Mr flubb]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1315947380' post='2799925']
It's actually 15mil, but I digress. I think we all made our stances clear. Both our alliances agreed on the reps and that is it. Next time NG raids a high-profile rogue in war with SC or BN, we'll pay 15mil too. Sounds fair? I think it does.
[/quote]

[color="#8B0000"]NG should never pay reps for something like that..... unless of course theyre raiding me [/color]

Edited September 13, 2011 by Mr flubb

[Shaazzam]

I do agree that people need to be more aware of Meth, and that trading with him is a recipe for trouble. And yet, I'm sure that this merry go round will happen again, simply because it's impossible for all AA's, based on how much oversight they receive from leadership, to vet everyone their members do business with.

Additionally, unless I'm mistaken the actual packages have been waiting in the queue for 5 days. So possibly you should reconsider your opinion that people people need to chill down and pay the reps.

And as for micros on the world stage, I'd urge you to remember what these few micros did to your AA.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Shaazzam

[Sigrun Vapneir]

It keeps getting repeated so often that it's pointless to correct it each time, but I suppose I should keep pointing it out occasionally at least. We werent attacked for aiding Meth. We were attacked for finishing a tech deal with [i]Nicholai,[/i] a very small non-nuclear nation that was not at war, nor sanctioned. But by all means, continue to pontificate about how horrible all the things we did not do are. It amuses me.

Edit to avoid doubleposting:

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1315947380' post='2799925']
It's actually 15mil, but I digress. I think we all made our stances clear. Both our alliances agreed on the reps and that is it. Next time NG raids a high-profile rogue in war with SC or BN, we'll pay 15mil too. Sounds fair? I think it does.
[/quote]

If you actually did that, it would certainly go a long way towards making you at least look more consistent and fair-minded. It would probably be effective for you from a PR viewpoint. That doesnt mean the precedent would be a good one though.

Back in 2007-2008, when I handled incidents like this for a big ginormous alliance that had plenty of them to handle, it was the normal thing even in the case of actual attacks that no one expected or sought reps in the vast majority of cases. These things are routine occurences, predictable not like the sunrise, but predictable like the weather at least. Sooner or later it always rains.

If I pushed for reps in one case, maybe I would be the one getting pushed the next. Not worth it. Sometimes they were volunteered, and sometimes even that was refused. It depended on the situation of course.

Granted I had other duties and hadnt handled these things in a long time before founding my own alliance, and I havent had the same sorts of issues for the past year, having had few members, and those well behaved. Granted the defacto standards for behaviour may be lower today. I call em as I see em, and as I see it the only real reason to demand reps over such a thing is for to escalate the situation, whether actually hoping to start a war or simply hoping to enjoy the rush of testosterone some people get from humiliating others.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Sigrun Vapneir

[Shaazzam]

Apologies.

[Ventus]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1315948415' post='2799935']
It keeps getting repeated so often that it's pointless to correct it each time, but I suppose I should keep pointing it out occasionally at least. We werent attacked for aiding Meth. We were attacked for finishing a tech deal with [i]Nicholai,[/i] a very small non-nuclear nation that was not at war, nor sanctioned. But by all means, continue to pontificate about how horrible all the things we did not do are. It amuses me.
[/quote]

You are a micro-alliance. That is the greatest crime of all.

[Mr flubb]

[quote name='Shaazzam' timestamp='1315948291' post='2799933']
I do agree that people need to be more aware of Meth, and that trading with him is a recipe for trouble. And yet, I'm sure that this merry go round will happen again, simply because it's impossible for all AA's, based on how much oversight they receive from leadership, to vet everyone their members do business with.

Additionally, unless I'm mistaken the actual packages have been waiting in the queue for 5 days. So possibly you should reconsider your opinion that people people need to chill down and pay the reps.

And as for micros on the world stage, I'd urge you to remember what these few micros did to your AA.
[/quote]
[color="#8B0000"]
Umm.... If youre talking to me, my AA is Starfleet, a micro.... Anyway, i didnt realise the reps had been negotiated, so my bad. just thought there was alot of heated debate about the reps here so i thought id chime in. I have revised my opinion too, you shoulda chilled down before you decided to war and payed your reps then... is that better, or did i miss something, because if i did, please inform me. [/color]

[Shaazzam]

[quote name='Mr flubb' timestamp='1315948796' post='2799941']
[color="#8B0000"]
Umm.... If youre talking to me, my AA is Starfleet, a micro.... Anyway, i didnt realise the reps had been negotiated, so my bad. just thought there was alot of heated debate about the reps here so i thought id chime in. I have revised my opinion too, you shoulda chilled down before you decided to war and payed your reps then... is that better, or did i miss something, because if i did, please inform me. [/color]
[/quote]

Well, I didn't search your nation. I just went by what you have listed in your profile, and SC, BN and another of our allies not involved in this current affair(NEAT) had a previous engagement with UBD.

As for "you shoulda chilled down before you decided to war and payed your reps then", I've completely missed what you are saying. Probably my fault, but I really don't get it.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Shaazzam

[Mr flubb]

[quote name='Shaazzam' timestamp='1315949238' post='2799948']
Well, I didn't search your nation. I just went by what you have listed in your profile, and SC, BN and another of our allies not involved in this current affair(NEAT) had a previous engagement with UBD.

As for "you shoulda chilled down before you decided to war and payed your reps then", I've completely missed what you are saying. Probably my fault, but I really don't get it.
[/quote]

[color="#8B0000"]No, that was just very poorly written... It was something like "instead of running to the OWF because you were too proud to pay reps, you shoulda payed up" referring to CA. I didnt even know SC got involved in this cluster$%&@ till a half an hour ago [/color]

[Thrash]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1315897785' post='2799670']
Thrash, you're really making it hard to not like Invicta with posts like this. Stop it.
[/quote]

They pay me well.

[wickedj]

All ive gathered from this is im now a protector of Methrage

Wheres the nearest cliff or tall building?

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1315943666' post='2799898']As for your initial offer of just $3 million, it is quite insulting to be fair. I honestly think you would have received a much better reply had you just started with a $9 million offer instead of $3 million[/quote]

Dochartaigh, I am really really trying to stay away from "if NG said X, I would have said Y" and vice verse or talking about specific comments made at the time because things were said by people on both sides during our discussion on IRC that I know for a fact insulted the other side. There were things that insulted me and had I been speaking for NG, I would have been insulted by some things said as well. I generally am very level headed, but this experience was an exception. I'm sure things would have gone a lot smoother had both sides been aware of how what we're saying appears to the other as opposed to caught up in our own point of view. Lesson learned.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1315953243' post='2799976']
Dochartaigh, I am really really trying to stay away from "if NG said X, I would have said Y" and vice verse or talking about specific comments made at the time because things were said by people on both sides during our discussion on IRC that I know for a fact insulted the other side. There were things that insulted me and had I been speaking for NG, I would have been insulted by some things said as well. I generally am very level headed, but this experience was an exception. I'm sure things would have gone a lot smoother had both sides been aware of how what we're saying appears to the other as opposed to caught up in our own point of view. Lesson learned.
[/quote]

Actually I agree. I just meant that given that your member aided a rogue, whether mistakenly or intentionally does not really matter, starting off with just $3 million is insulting. Though to be fair, starting off with a $30 million counter-offer, is also insulting. I had always thought 3 times the amount (in this case, $9 million) should be standard regardless.

I have been told numerous times that even the most exorbitant amount of reps, tends to never actually cover the true damage done, so trying for $30 million was stupid and the offer all around should have been $9 million said and done.

[bcortell]

[quote name='Schad' timestamp='1315941384' post='2799871']
Which is why, ultimately, we agreed to a higher figure. In the couple hours between when it was presented and resolved, we tried to put together an estimate of how much Methrage got from his back-collect (he would have already had the means to get out of bill-lock, though, as a result of the tech deal with the Wolfpack nation), how much damage he might be able to inflict and how much he'd steal if the nations in question still had their delivered aid plus a little bit, and how much it might increase if another couple of nations his size were put on him. Split three ways, still got a number a fair shade below $15m, but as the estimate was in no way precise, it was debatable.




SC was offering reparations from the start. The person screaming nonsense shouldn't have been anywhere near the negotiation...or another human being in pretty much any setting, really.
[/quote]
Heh. By this thread, I get the feeling that I have a better grasp on SC's feelings about the situation than you do... but I guess their feelings didn't matter to ya when dealing with the situation before SC made a final decision..


On a different note, to the NG guys I spoke with: I overreacted and I apologize for that. Thought your demands were unreasonable and didn't like the way you went about it (I'm sure the feeling is mutual from you guys about me).

[Haflinger]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1315917403' post='2799721']
Please explain how the reps requested in relation to the damage caused differs in any way when the size of the offending alliance is factored in? The amount requested has nothing to do with the number of nations in your alliance, nor with the number of nations in NG's alliance. The numbers are based solely on the reason for the reps request. White collar crime comes at a high price.
[/quote]
The reps demand was obviously for punitive reps, as it was far more than the amount of damage the aided nation - a non-nuclear nation with 4 improvements and no wonders - could possibly inflict.

In punitive reparations, you demand a sum that is significant enough to actually punish the offender and prevent others from committing the same offence. This means that you take the offender's ability to pay into account; you want a sum that the offender can pay, but which will put them in some difficulty when they actually provide it.

Which is what was demanded of CA. For one nation aiding Nicholai.

[nippy]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1315969498' post='2800133']
The reps demand was obviously for punitive reps, as it was far more than the amount of damage the aided nation - a non-nuclear nation with 4 improvements and no wonders - could possibly inflict.

In punitive reparations, you demand a sum that is significant enough to actually punish the offender and prevent others from committing the same offence. This means that you take the offender's ability to pay into account; you want a sum that the offender can pay, but which will put them in some difficulty when they actually provide it.

Which is what was demanded of CA. For one nation aiding Nicholai.
[/quote]

Ah, so I take it the 'war aid' directly to Methrage wasn't factored in, and it occurred after the discussions.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1315978653' post='2800234']
Ah, so I take it the 'war aid' directly to Methrage wasn't factored in, and it occurred after the discussions.
[/quote]

Yes, nippy.

As I stated in the OP, which I know you would have read if it werent so darn long, sorry, I try my best - anyway, the sequence of events:

[b]1.[/b] Methrage gets in lots of wars. Usually him vs. the world. I do the same thing, just not so bloody often because I am a lot nicer to people, but it happens. I tech trade with him through several wars. I am threatened, I keep trading.

[b]2[/b]. Then the stuff at MAD happened and I actually cancelled Meth's deal.

[b]2.a.[/b] BUT a guy sheltering on my AA sent Nicholai (4 improvements no wonders never nuclear capable, not at war, and not sanctioned, unlike Methrage on every count) the last scheduled payment on his deal, and Nic accepted and sent me the tech, before I could stop them. This was on the [b]5th.[/b]

[b]3[/b]. For this I was told I would have to pay, and I said I wouldnt pay. I was told, in a reasonably polite way considering, that I would be very very gone if I did not pay.

[b]3.a[/b] I mentioned, in the very most polite tone I personally could manage, that if I was attacked it was my policy to consider myself in coalition with whoever else was fighting the attacker. I urged them to reconsider, and think of another way.

[b]4.[/b] 2 nations hit me. This is on the [b]9th. [/b]

[b]5.[/b] I declare myself in coalition, and send Methrage 4.5million with the description War Aid. The day is now the [b]10th.[/b]

That was the first shipment from me to him since the shipment that was... no later than the 2nd of last month.


[i][font="Arial"][size="1"]Edit because of: English, how does it work? Also numerical additions and accuracy in flourish.Why are you still reading this? [/size][/font][/i]

Edited September 14, 2011 by Sigrun Vapneir

[ZeroRemorse]

Wait wait wait. I got here late...blame commie transportation if you will. But from what i've read your telling me that the total reps CA was told give after 2 of their alliance members sent (war aid/tech deal aid) was below 15mil? Then because you didn't want to pay such a small fee you declared war and doomed your alliance to be rolled? I think I must be missing something or else I have to say you sir done goofed.

You definitely did NOT think this through clearly.

[nippy]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1315980893' post='2800252']
Yes, nippy.

As I stated in the OP, which I know you would have read if it werent so darn long, sorry, I try my best - anyway, the sequence of events:

[b]1.[/b] Methrage gets in lots of wars. Usually him vs. the world. I do the same thing, just not so bloody often because I am a lot nicer to people, but it happens. I tech trade with him through several wars. I am threatened, I keep trading.

[b]2[/b]. Then the stuff at MAD happened and I actually cancelled Meth's deal.

[b]2.a.[/b] BUT a guy sheltering on my AA sent Nicholai (4 improvements no wonders never nuclear capable, not at war, and not sanctioned, unlike Methrage on every count) the last scheduled payment on his deal, and Nic accepted and sent me the tech, before I could stop them. This was on the [b]5th.[/b]

[b]3[/b]. For this I was told I would have to pay, and I said I wouldnt pay. I was told, in a reasonably polite way considering, that I would be very very gone if I did not pay.

[b]3.a[/b] I mentioned, in the very most polite tone I personally could manage, that if I was attacked it was my policy to consider myself in coalition with whoever else was fighting the attacker. I urged them to reconsider, and think of another way.

[b]4.[/b] 2 nations hit me. This is on the [b]9th. [/b]

[b]5.[/b] I declare myself in coalition, and send Methrage 4.5million with the description War Aid. The day is now the [b]10th.[/b]

That was the first shipment from me to him since the shipment that was... no later than the 2nd of last month.


[i][font="Arial"][size="1"]Edit because of: English, how does it work? Also numerical additions and accuracy in flourish.Why are you still reading this? [/size][/font][/i]
[/quote]

What does 'a guy sheltering on your AA' mean? A ghost? A person you're providing protection for simply to keep them from being techraided? What does that mean? If you're graciously allowing someone to sit on your AA under your full knowledge, this means you're responsible for their actions, yes? Furthermore, telling NG to basically to go $%&@ themselves in the 'nicest way possible' is still telling them to go $%&@ themselves.

[kriekfreak]

So it got to my attention Methrage is now messaging Senators to unsanction him and Nicholai. There is no reason to unsanction him since he is still considered a nuclear rogue. Congratulations Methrage, it seems you never stop to amaze me about the persistence of your stupidity.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1316005494' post='2800334']
So it got to my attention Methrage is now messaging Senators to unsanction him and Nicholai. There is no reason to unsanction him since he is still considered a nuclear rogue. Congratulations Methrage, it seems you never stop to amaze me about the persistence of your stupidity.[/quote]

Methrage has, with my permission, sent a brief and polite message to several senators pointing out some pertinent facts and asking politely for a review of his sanction. If he was anything but brief and polite in doing so to anyone I would appreciate hearing about it, in private preferably, and I WILL take appropriate action if that is the case, but as long as that is all he did I see no harm in it.

I dont believe his actions in MAD have been properly understood, and if they were there might be more sympathy for him on that, but I grant you you made the accusation of roguery stick there much better than before. I even cut his tech deal I will remind you.

Now if you want to have a debate about the nature and paramaters of roguery, then so be it. Let's say Methrage committed a rogue action at MAD, just for the sake of argument. Does a single rogue action mean that the actor 'is a rogue' forever after?

Even after he is zi'd, and offers quite a substantial amount of reparations, only to be refused and faced with pzi instead?

Even after he joins a legit alliance that is involved in a purely defensive war against the same opponent?

I am sure you will say yes, he is a rogue forever and ever, because he annoyed you mightily. I wont even say I dont sympathise with your position, you know that. But I dont agree with it, and I certainly think it is a point we can argue.

Nor, honestly, do I see why you even bother trying to keep him under sanction at this point. You have to be aware of just how ineffective this tactic is against us. The only thing it does is keeping Meth from paying tech out to some of the people that he owes tech to. You object to him receiving aid that will be used to fight him, yet when he sends out the tech that is owed, it directly subtracts from the money he has available to fight you, so why obstruct it? Not only with sanctions but with threats and intimidation aimed at his buyers? How does that make any sense?

Edited September 14, 2011 by Sigrun Vapneir

[kriekfreak]

This is just an inane defense. He is indeed a nuclear rogue, as admitted by MAD. His declaration of war in MAD's name and subsequent attacks on NG were unsanctioned by MAD. That is a classical cause of roguery.

He has been ZI'd but refused to meet our demand in reparations. He's not being faced with PZI, he just needs to repend from the actions he took and pay reparations. That he joined your alliance which is in 'war' with us doesn't mean he isn't a nuclear rogue anymore.

These sanctions also help innocent nations like the SC and WP nations sending him waraid.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1316013311' post='2800384']
He has been ZI'd but refused to meet our demand in reparations. [/quote]

He informs me of the sums he offered and how much was demanded. His offer was more than generous in my opinion, and the number he tells me was demanded is the same one that you told me. If you will recall I pointed out why the sum was impossible, and unless I badly misunderstood you, you didnt disagree with me on that point.

Look, demanding impossible reps from Meth because you just werent ready to turn him go, that I can understand. I dont really blame you for it. But I cant blame him for equating impossible demands with pzi, and I cant blame him for refusing what was demanded.

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1316014688' post='2800395']
He informs me of the sums he offered and how much was demanded. His offer was more than generous in my opinion, and the number he tells me was demanded is the same one that you told me. If you will recall I pointed out why the sum was impossible, and unless I badly misunderstood you, you didnt disagree with me on that point.

Look, demanding impossible reps from Meth because you just werent ready to turn him go, that I can understand. I dont really blame you for it. But I cant blame him for equating impossible demands with pzi, and I cant blame him for refusing what was demanded.
[/quote]

He offered 1/4 of what we demanded. It was simply not enough. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. That he was labeled a rogue was entirely his doing. He shouldn't whine when people ask reps.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1316014851' post='2800397']
He shouldn't whine
[/quote]

He really rarely whines. Usually he is frothing at the mouth instead, annoying as well, but I really think whine wasnt the word you were looking for.

At any rate, you may have noticed that you arent 'hearing' him here nearly as often or as loudly since he joined me. You're welcome.