Haflinger Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 [quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1304533963' post='2706118'] I don't get it. Flatulence is applauded in Noveria. It is deemed to be the most efficient way to warm our ice and snow covered nation by our top scientists. [/quote] You should try inferno rounds on the rachni, it serves a good defense purpose as well as heating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partisan Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 [quote name='MarcusFuriusCamillus' timestamp='1304532802' post='2706107'] I was around when NPO and friends curbstomped ONOS and made Ivan Moldavi Viceroy for 2 months before the complete disbanding of the alliance. Not months later they organized for FAN to cancel all its treaties and enter eternal war. I'm a little confused how this is ANY harsher terms then that.... or would you prefer that? Cause I think we can accomodate that as well. Congrats on peace to all. You got off light NPO [/quote] "but they did x!" How long ago is the ONOS war now? I believe its somewhere around 4 or 5 years past. The NPO was taken off its seat and punished for the first time - harshly if I may add by karma more than 2 years ago. That war and those reps were well deserved. Since the moment they left terms, various alliances have tried to goad them into declaring a war upon that there would be a valid reason to burn them to the ground again. I couldn't care less about that. NPO however did not fall for the obvious traps. 6 months later, they are declared on again for their past. While I dont like it, thats your call. To claim however, that these terms are fair 'because they could have been so much worse!' is just silly. You're literally punishing the NPO (Thats usually what reps are, a punishment) for receiving punishment. The terms by themselves are not incredibly harsh. However, if I consider the circumstances (completely unprovoked attack etc.), I would indeed call them harsh. I am not claiming the NPO didn't commit the crimes they are hated for. I do however feel like some people should get over themselves. The crimes that you keep speaking off are years past. Hell, most rulers in CN probably werent even there when they were committed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Che Guevara Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 [i]PHEW. [/i]I am certainly glad that war is over. As I can see in this thread, NPO and MK have clearly settled their differences and we can look forward to a future of unity and prosperity. Just kidding, the arguments are awful and you should all feel really, really bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 [quote name='Partisan' timestamp='1304542175' post='2706159'] How long ago is the ONOS war now? I believe its somewhere around 4 or 5 years past.[/quote] It was in the spring of 2007. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partisan Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 [quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1304542479' post='2706164'] It was in the spring of 2007. [/quote] Thanks, i've never been good with timestamps failing memory etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurunin Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 [quote name='MarcusFuriusCamillus' timestamp='1304532802' post='2706107'] I was around when NPO and friends curbstomped ONOS and made Ivan Moldavi Viceroy for 2 months before the complete disbanding of the alliance. Not months later they organized for FAN to cancel all its treaties and enter eternal war. I'm a little confused how this is ANY harsher terms then that.... or would you prefer that? Cause I think we can accomodate that as well. Congrats on peace to all. You got off light NPO [/quote] correct me if i'm wrong...but wasn't Karma supposed to be seeking justice on NPO's past actions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChairmanHal Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 [quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1304544677' post='2706182'] correct me if i'm wrong...but wasn't Karma supposed to be seeking justice on NPO's past actions?[/quote] You bought that? Ok, maybe it was for about 5% of those fighting on the Karma side. For the overwhelming majority, it was simply a chance to knock NPO down a few notches. Doing so has become so popular with some people, they've decided it needs to be a bi-annual event, regardless of what NPO may actually be doing/not doing at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the dakotans Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 [quote name='Joe Kremlin' timestamp='1304541861' post='2706153'] Seemingly it was for their past transgressions. [/quote] And that's fair enough, I don't mind people beating up on the NPO. I spent massive amounts of time before Karma hoping they'd get rolled too(This is the second war though, I'd hope people are starting to get over it) It's more the giving terms to the alliances that came in to defend an alliance that was attacked just because they could be attacked. I disagree with the thought that they somehow deserve to pay 2.4 billion in reps for that action. They are no more guilty than anyone else that supported NPO directly or indirectly during their reign(Which was most of us). The only crime they have committed is not canceling on their friends for political safety. Maybe it's dumb, but hardly a crime worth reps imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Impero Romano Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 (edited) [quote name='the dakotans' timestamp='1304545213' post='2706188'] And that's fair enough, I don't mind people beating up on the NPO. I spent massive amounts of time before Karma hoping they'd get rolled too(This is the second war though, I'd hope people are starting to get over it) It's more the giving terms to the alliances that came in to defend an alliance that was attacked just because they could be attacked. I disagree with the thought that they somehow deserve to pay 2.4 billion in reps for that action. They are no more guilty than anyone else that supported NPO directly or indirectly during their reign(Which was most of us). The only crime they have committed is not canceling on their friends for political safety. Maybe it's dumb, but hardly a crime worth reps imo. [/quote] I think the difference lies in some people viewing reps as needing to have a close nexus to culpability (i.e. "you have done blameworthy thing X, and Y is the moral consequence that you deserve"), and some people viewing them as only needing them to be connected to an action by cause in fact (you did X, now Y is the direct result of that action alone). But in the end, does the personal philosophy someone applies to the concept of reps rationale really matter at all? Both are valid schools of thought, and reasonable minds can differ. While we aren't big on reps, I can say that I just plain don't care about them one way or another unless a line is crossed, and no such line is crossed here. Edited May 4, 2011 by Il Impero Romano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Quintus Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 Just stopping in to share in this time of celebration and rejoice in a job well done. Later on, I'm gonna enjoy the festivities and the remainder of the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingEd Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 This is finally done? Evil terms are evil.... Nice terms are nice.... Moving on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Curzon Posted May 4, 2011 Report Share Posted May 4, 2011 [quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1304545021' post='2706187'] You bought that? Ok, maybe it was for about 5% of those fighting on the Karma side. For the overwhelming majority, it was simply a chance to knock NPO down a few notches. Doing so has become so popular with some people, they've decided it needs to be a bi-annual event, regardless of what NPO may actually be doing/not doing at the time. [/quote] Not doing tends to be the standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 [quote name='Partisan' timestamp='1304525929' post='2706055'] A shame someone took that part of my post as even remotely serious. Guess I need to throw in more 'rabbles' next time. There is no good and no evil in CN anymore (if there ever was any). There is just political conveniency. I'd say that has become fairly obvious in the past two years. Doomhouse decided to spend quite some political capital on waging a completely agressive and unprovoked war. Good on them. If they want to spend more of it by giving silly terms, I wont stop them. The bill will eventually get to them. [/quote] Quite clearly my response was in reference to the terms as "doable" and therefore nothing to complain about. I took that as you saying terms are only worthy of complaint when they are, in fact, not "doable". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drai Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 [quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1304545021' post='2706187'] You bought that? Ok, maybe it was for about 5% of those fighting on the Karma side. For the overwhelming majority, it was simply a chance to knock NPO down a few notches. Doing so has become so popular with some people, they've decided it needs to be a bi-annual event, regardless of what NPO may actually be doing/not doing at the time. [/quote] Yes because every 2 years is certainly a frequent occurance! I'm assuming that's what you meant by bi-annual and not twice per year, in which case I don't know what you'd be referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crushtania Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 (edited) A limited war? My my, aren't we all sophisticated. Soon you'll be telling me we'll be having a United Nations of Bob? Sorry, I can't keep a straight face. Well done to our allies and well fought. Edited May 5, 2011 by Crushtania Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted May 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 [quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1304545021' post='2706187'] You bought that? Ok, maybe it was for about 5% of those fighting on the Karma side. For the overwhelming majority, it was simply a chance to knock NPO down a few notches. Doing so has become so popular with some people, they've decided it needs to be a bi-annual event, regardless of what NPO may actually be doing/not doing at the time. [/quote] Whether or not "justice" has been done is irrelevant. The most pertinent question in the decision to strike Pacifica was this: are they a threat? There are a lot of things that go into whether or not an alliance is a threat. Are they hostile or friendly? What is their statistical strength? In what circumstances are they willing to use said strength? Under what circumstances can they project that strength? Are there readily foreseeable opportunities for them to use that strength against us with a degree of success? What are the consequences of defeat against this opponent? Nobody would doubt that the Order and Doomhouse (and MK in particular) were hostile toward one another in the lead up to this conflict. NPO's strength was not in and of itself a threat, nor was the strength of NPO and its allies, but the possibility of the Pacifican sphere rolling in the middle of another operation involving Doomhouse and/or its allies loomed large; even were it not enough to turn the tide of a war, it would be enough to severely complicate one. This concern came to a head as Pandoran forces rolled into Polaris. Whether or not they would be willing to use their strength was a tougher question. NPO had itself shown great willingness to project power in the past and its allies had been similarly willing to go along with such operations. However, NPO's ability to command such operations was no doubt significantly diminished in the wake of Karma. The idea of a Pacifican boogeyman popping up out of nowhere was certainly preposterous. However, the Pandoran War had established a unique set of circumstances. Alliances leading into the Pacifican sphere were fighting a defensive front. Entry of Doomhouse forces into this front would provide NPO & Co. an opportunity to launch against a hated enemy. The commitment of certain swing parties to our side was in question. Altogether, a perfect storm of circumstances that didn't read well. Furthermore, the ease with which such circumstances could come about was readily apparent; it would be a problem in the event of any proactive operation by Doomhouse or any of its allies. Given the willingness of allies to keep dormant treaties that would force entry, a hostile Pacifican sphere was left free to choose when, if ever, it would like to enter against us. Which, finally, leads to a contemplation of consequences. What would be the consequences of defeat? Of course, there would be the obvious consequences of any defeat: decline of global influence, statistical strength, etc. But you also have to consider what kind of terms might be the end result. NPO has, in the past, shown a great willingness to impose harsh terms--not even Pacifica would deny this (though they will complain that it is brought up). They have also shown a willingness to hold a grudge, pursue it after a great length of time, and demand more brutal terms in keeping with grudges. While it would be a great boon to Pacifcia's image to show mercy in victory, there was little indication of a change in its fundamental ideology or opinion on the subject, nor had they fought in any other wars wherein the issue might come up. Our best guess was that things would be the same as before--if you fail it'll be a brutal failure. So before us sat the question of a hostile opponent with enough strength to possibly tip the balance of a war (or at the very least better equalize it) that, were they able to win, would issue terms of a special intensity. Whether or not they would act was entirely within their choice and would continue to be an unpleasant question in every subsequent world event. So we decided to answer it for them, here and now, when our ability to win was more assured. That this war has gone on so far are the pure result of the tactics utilized: the peace mode strategy. Mass peace mode works to limit how quickly damage can be dealt and drag out a conflict. The thought process behind it is understandable. "Doomhouse cashed in considerable political capital to strike preemptively; if we hit peace mode we can refuse to allow the damage necessary to break even on the gamble and they'll eventually have to let us have peace without doing nearly as much damage as they'd hoped. Meanwhile, the war drags on and the the lost political capital multiplies as people start demanding an end to the war." But Hopeless strategists underestimated our resolve to maintain the war and overestimated the willingness of its allies to subscribe to the theory. A great number of alliances refused the strategy or made peace before the core group for a variety of pragmatic (we're wrecked and/or these are good terms) or ideological (peace mode is wrong, put this in your sig if you're down) reasons. Meanwhile, we maintained that the war would not end until NPO came out of peace mode. I've made clear my own ideological slant on the subject in past posts: it would seem that in a world that demands shorter, quicker wars that the mass peace mode strategy should not be condoned under any circumstances and must be refused at any cost. At last Pacifica agreed to bring some of its nations out of peace mode; that's all I've wanted and I'll be happy to see them emerge. I don't harbor an inherent grudge against Pacifica. I considered my personal matters with them settled when they surrendered to Viridia (and countless others) at the end of Karma. But one ignores possible threats at their own peril. The material strength of Pacifica is demolished and that threat is resolved. It has a new Emperor and a new Regent. Both have operated with the utmost class, patience, and professionalism. I believe they'll take the efforts necessary to resolve hostility between us and I intend to welcome them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 It's always nice to stop by once in a while to witness 35 pages of moral outrage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroofTime55 Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 [quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1304563531' post='2706516'] Whether or not "justice" has been done is irrelevant. The most pertinent question in the decision to strike Pacifica was this: are they a threat? [/quote] I stopped reading here, because the rest is irrelevant. If you believe that military action is justified simply because the opponent could be construed as a 'threat,' then you would agree that everything NPO ever did pre-Karma was totally justified? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Williambonney Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1304563531' post='2706516'] snip [/quote] Great story, you should see if the Enquirer will run it on their front page. Edited May 5, 2011 by William Bonney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 [quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1304565495' post='2706543'] I stopped reading here, because the rest is irrelevant. If you believe that military action is justified simply because the opponent could be construed as a 'threat,' then you would agree that everything NPO ever did pre-Karma was totally justified? [/quote] Yet, when TOP pre-emptively hit C&G citing them as a "threat" MK and the rest of C&G were "outraged" by the attack and ridiculed the "paranoia" of TOP in doing what they did. Around and around goes the merry-go-round. I wonder when it will stop and let us all get off and stagger away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted May 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1304567830' post='2706583'] Yet, when TOP pre-emptively hit C&G citing them as a "threat" MK and the rest of C&G were "outraged" by the attack and ridiculed the "paranoia" of TOP in doing what they did. Around and around goes the merry-go-round. I wonder when it will stop and let us all get off and stagger away. [/quote] I was more relieved than anything else. We were really sweating it until they did that and Polar ruined them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 [quote name='Matthew Conrad' timestamp='1304564786' post='2706533'] It's always nice to stop by once in a while to witness 35 pages of moral outrage. [/quote] If it's not your cup of tea you're welcome to piss off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 [quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1304567950' post='2706587'] I was more relieved than anything else. We were really sweating it until they did that and Polar ruined them. [/quote] I'm aware you were keen for the attack to happen. I'm referring to the public reaction to the events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted May 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1304568662' post='2706597'] I'm aware you were keen for the attack to happen. I'm referring to the public reaction to the events. [/quote] I think both TOP and MK realize that things were said, it was wartime, and we got over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1304567830' post='2706583'] Yet, when TOP pre-emptively hit C&G citing them as a "threat" MK and the rest of C&G were "outraged" by the attack and ridiculed the "paranoia" of TOP in doing what they did. Around and around goes the merry-go-round. I wonder when it will stop and let us all get off and stagger away. [/quote] They are just following MK motto [i]"Everything is acceptable, but just when we are the ones doing that."[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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