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Schattenmann

This Week in Os's World

84 posts in this topic

OsWorld_zpsed6368fa.jpg

 

OsWorldFace_zps2194374f.png

 
Good evening, I'm your host Schattenmann, and this is This Week in Os's World, your number one source for news from that land beyond the clouds. 
 
Three years ago, I had the privilege of bringing to you the wackiest world I know: Os's World, where as I put it then, "up is down and circle is square."  It is a craven world, which defies even the most brilliant minds because it is simply an altogether alien place. Do not adjust your sets, the image on your screen is as it is in Os's World.
 
Tonight, we return to Os's World.  Why?  Because once again Os's World collides with Reality, and so we must.  Is the topic at hand of earth-shattering importance?  No.  Is it nonetheless fun?  You betcha.
 

That are you doing the deliberately ignorant routine again (like you do whenever you claim odn wanted to pay 100,000 tech).

 
What have we got?  In Os's World, OsCraven continues to declare, 3 years on, that he did not offer to pay 100,000 in tech reparations from ODN coffers in return for a guarantee of white peace for Umbrella.
This is a settled matter except for one man: The man who said it, who says he never did.  And because he will not simply own his words, they must be repeated to him.  On no account, small or large, can the sane minds of Reality allow Os's World to supplant truth.  And so below are the excerpted logs of that exchange.
 
The setting
On the 14th of March 2011--a Thursday in Reality but Oppositeday in Os's World where all 11 days of the week are Oppositeday--Brehon met with the losers to discuss the terms of their surrender.  But before any terms could be discussed, the losers started asking favors to negotiate peace for the entire war rather than just one front, and declined to go any further.  They feared that Equilibrium was going to peace out C&G and then keep DoomHouse in permanent war, which they had started as a rumor themselves then apparently started believing themselves.
 
This circular discussion continued for some time, and the losers eventually got Brehon to say what terms were being considered for Umbrella.

[15:42] <&OsRavan[ODN]> true but not reps leaves a lot of open ground.  Can you not tell us what you want exactly?
...
[15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> Umbrella - 5 months no outside tech deals, all AA jumpers back to their AA's, those in AA's not declared that are taking part in wars (undeclared as in jump to another AA or created an AA) that are not back will be treated as rogues without intervention:  Everyone else (and NE etc correct me if I missed anything) admission of defeat and surrender (this includes Umbrella)
[15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> DH has to do her own tech deals
[15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> sorry Umbrella has to do her own tech deals internally
[15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> Not outside
[15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> at all, not even DH
 
Now, in truth, the most harsh terms wishlist in the coalition was only 3 mos no outside aid.  As a denizen of Reality, Brehon expected the losers to make a counter offer of less months.  Boy, was he naive.
 
No Reps is Reps on Oppositeday
Equilibrium made it very clear that we were not asking for, nor did we even want, reparations.  However, after 3 years of extracting reparations on behalf of his allies, in Os's World no reps means reps.
[15:50] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ive gotta ask out of curiosity.  Is 'no reps' just a pr thing? it seems to me you are trying to do the damage of reps without being forced to say the word reps
[15:51] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i.e pick the same itme period it would normaly cost to pay huge reps
[15:51] <&OsRavan[ODN]> and tie up slots the same as if they were paying
01[15:51] <~Brehon[NPO]> It is up to you to offer a counter.  We still have a lot of alliances to talk to/with, as do you.
[15:51] <&OsRavan[ODN]> if the goal here is to stunt someones growth and 'punish' them for past actions (what exactly is umbrella being punished for by the way?) why not just call a horse a horse
[15:52] <&OsRavan[ODN]> im just trying to understand the logic
[15:52] <&OsRavan[ODN]> both 1) why the extra demands are being leveled on umbrella.  2) my question about reps. if the goal here is to do what reps do without calling it reps why dance around? just put up a rep numbe
01[15:53] <~Brehon[NPO]> Umbrella was the cause.  that answers #1
[15:53] <&Kestral> so 5 months of no external aid for slot filling?
[15:53] <&OsRavan[ODN]> right, but why was umbrella the cause? are you saying its 5 months with no aid cause mp slot filled?
[15:53] <~Brehon[NPO]> for #2, are they paying anyone?  No.  If you feel that is not proper, then you can of course offer a counter.
[15:54] <&OsRavan[ODN]> umbrella did the mp thing or didnt do it whatever.  AI went to war with them on that cb.  Then won that war.
[15:55] <&OsRavan[ODN]> so what is umbrella being punished for now?
[15:55] <~Brehon[NPO]> If you want a philosophical debate, this is not the place for it.
[15:55] <&OsRavan[ODN]> not philosiphical. specific
[15:55] <&OsRavan[ODN]> what has umbrella done that others have not
[15:55] <&OsRavan[ODN]> that they are getting extra terms?
[15:56] <~Brehon[NPO]> If you have something to offer a counter, lets here it.  I am waiting for Umbrella to respond if they have something they wish to offer.
[15:57] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i thought the whole point here though, was we were moving past those sorta terms.  That it was a new era where you had an issue with umbrella. we all fought and fought hard. and then we move on
[15:59] <&OsRavan[ODN]> my counter would be we admitt you won, we shake hands and say 'good fight' and all move on
 
As a bonus there at the end, in Os's World, you get to spend 3 years squeezing alliances for extended war, billions in reps, and forced apologies, then when you lose, the ~New Era~ of white peace begins.  This is a truly mad world.
 
The Offer
And so we come to it.  Brehon and Equilibrium made it crystal clear that no reparations were wanted by anyone.  But once the losers all convinced themselves that an embargo is reparations, OsRavan started offering actual reparations against our will.
 
[16:09] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ;:considers;: let me raise a possible counter
[16:09] <&OsRavan[ODN]> you let DH off with surrender, and ODN pays reps to those who feel our ally have wronged them
[16:09] <~Brehon[NPO]> No reps
[16:10] <&OsRavan[ODN]> say we pay out 100,000 tech? (and I would need to run that by our senate)
[16:10] <&OsRavan[ODN]> we being only odn
[16:10] <&NobodyExpects> no reps
[16:10] <~Brehon[NPO]> and NPO will not allow for reps
[16:10] <~Brehon[NPO]> No one is paying anyone anythin
[16:11] <&OsRavan[ODN]> what i dont like
[16:11] <&OsRavan[ODN]> is you are saying no reps
[16:11] <&ncc[NG]> quasi-reps? Whatever you want to call it.
[16:11] <&OsRavan[ODN]> for PR reasons
[16:11] <&OsRavan[ODN]> but demanding something worse
 
At this point, Os inexplicably shuts up for the next 30 minutes and the talks conclude without further intrusions from Os's World.
 
In the intervening years, OsCraven has continually denied, as he did again today, that he ever offered 100,000 tech in reparations (contingent, of course, on the Senate) on behalf of Umbrella, to be paid by ODN alone.  We cannot know why.  He knows that there it is in black-and-white.  He could ineffectively lie and say that it was a joke, and everyone would know that he is full of crap, but that is not his choice.  He chooses to continue to deny Reality.  He lives in Os's World.
 
For This Week, I'm Schattenmann, bidding you good night, and good luck from somewhere over the rainbow.

Edited by Schattenmann

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I think Os is going to need some balm for that buuuuurrrn.  Always fun when you don't have to argue with others and can let them just argue with themselves.  Good job, Schatt

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This is why I enjoy global wars.

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This is why I enjoy global wars.

Me too!

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I think your obsession with Os is bordering on alarming.

 

With that I'm going to recuse myself from the impending NpO circlejerk itt.

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You're the only OWF poster I visit this damn place for, now-a-days.

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I think your obsession with Os is bordering on alarming.

 

With that I'm going to recuse myself from the impending NpO circlejerk itt.

Right now its less of a circle and more like two dudes, so you have plenty of time to recuse yourself.  I think people allow others to get away too often with absolute misrepresentations of the facts.  It's good to see folks get called out.

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Classic Schatt.

 

Os was terrible then, and nothing has changed.

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lol glad to see you still love me schatt.  Even if you cut out about 20 minutes of the logs there that were prob relevant.

 

So, We once again have you obsessing over reps you know were never a real offer.  I know you are a little slow on the uptake.  But what you see there is called *MAKING A POINT* 

 

I know they don't usually let you in the big boy rooms Schatt, so let me spell this out to you, since you can't seem to follow what was going on in the very logs you are quoting.

 

1) Equilibrium is trying to push terms on MK.  You want to hurt MK and Umbrella for no reason you can describe. But you don't want to charge them tech or money... why?  Because thats 'reps' and you are trying to spin this as 'terms'

 

2) I make a facetious counter point about how if this is really about punishment, why dont you just charge 100k tech.  And ODN will pay it instead of MK/Umbrella.  Why do I say this?  Because we all know equilibrium will NEVER accept it.  Because they were worried about how it would look to take so much tech and because they wanted to swing CnG post war.  So I drive the point home  about the double standard.  Why not take tech (I believe I even say tech from MK at one point).  I'm pushing buttons cause they are bending over backwards to avoid taking tech.... even though what they are demanding is meant to damage just as much.  But they think it sounds better PR wise.  So *MY* point if its really about punishment, why not take the much larger offer?  But politicaly they cant.    This is obvious to EVERYONE in that room except you.  And my comments weren't a big deal in the talk but an aside... cause everyone there (but you?) knew what was going on.

 

 

It was a minor snide negotiation exchange in a freaking super long meeting, but you in your obsession have put your blinders on.   Everyone in that room... yes EVERYONE (probably including you) knew exactly what I was doing when I said that.  And knew it wasnt a 'real' offer.  But you feel the need to trot it out for some political BS every few months.

 

 

Seriously dude.  Grow up.  I dont get your obsession with me, but at the very least have the decency to be HONEST in your issues with me and not spin BS and random log fragments you pull out to try and twist things into your own point.

 

 

Have the decency to argue for your stance on ACTUAL points.  Not intellectually dishonest mud slinging. The fact that when I tear your current alliance a new one on the OWF, your only possible avenue is to throw in semi-in context logs of me being an ass three wars ago and pass it off as an actual legit stance?  Come on man.  Again, do better.   I highly doubt anyone but you and I actually care about a half dozen throw away lines in a negotiation room from three wars ago.  And yes if you posted the full logs of that night, you would see they were a minor aside. But then that would mess with your storyline, wouldnt it? 

 

::eye roll:: Clearly I'm really offering 100,000 tech (when no one wanted ODN to pay anything) out of FEAR and cowardice.  Yes thats it ::sarcasm::.  It couldnt be usual negotiation room bs could it? 

 

And stop obsessing over me.  I feel like i've got a little squeaky voice dog trotting behind me yipping at my heels.

Edited by OsRavan

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Haha I wish Schatt would write more often

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1) Equilibrium is trying to push terms on MK.  You want to hurt MK and Umbrella for no reason you can describe. But you don't want to charge them tech or money... why?  Because thats 'reps' and you are trying to spin this as 'terms'

2) I make a facetious counter point about how if this is really about punishment, why dont you just charge 100k tech. And ODN will pay it instead of MK/Umbrella.

 
I only read this far into your post, Os.

 

"Reps" and "terms" are different. Reps can be a term, as is surrender, movie reviews, etc. Besides any reps business, they didn't consider it because the point was to hurt Umb/MK, not ODN/C&G.

 

Sorry, carry on.

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Scatt... you need to find a new hobby for nights when you're bored.  

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Yes *EXACTLY* Gibs.  Thats *MY* point.  They wanted to hurt MK but they were worried about how reps in tech would look.   And they were trying to pass it off as not personal and as 'terms' instead (whether terms are different or not is a different debate, they felt people would view it as different)

 

The entire point of the facetious "why doesn't ODN pay 100k tech"  was a tongue in cheek point.  I.e I'm implying "your terms MUST be horrible... look you wont even accept 100k tech you are demanding these much worse terms."

 

That was the facetious/sarcastic POINT of my comment.

 

 

And yes obviously I know the reasons why even if 100k tech was more damaging to MK on paper, equilibrium would never ask for it.  And yes I knew they would never go for that.  Or for ODN to pay instead of MK.  Thats WHY I made the comment.  It was simply one of the hundred jabs you make at these kinds of talks.  IT wasn't the crux of the talk, it was a largely irrelevant side comment.  Only Schatt has an obsession with me.

 

 

edit to add:  And just do the sniff test on this.  What is the more likely explanation for those logs?  What I laid out in my post.  Or.. despite ODN being offered white peace, I ran into a talk about *MK* terms, and offered to pay 100,000 tech no one was asking ODN to pay... because I was so scared.  So scared I didnt want to accept white peace (on the table) but wanted to pay instead.

Edited by OsRavan

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Os.

 

It's not worth it. Everyone knows what side of every issue they are on. CN is no longer catering to a swing vote. The sides are defined don't waste your time. All this thread is going to do is have everyone stick to their current opinion and talk at each other.

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˙uo ƃuıoƃ sɐʍ ʇɐɥʍ ʍǝuʞ (¿noʎ ʇnq) ǝɹǝɥʇ ǝuoʎɹǝʌǝ ǝsnɐɔ ˙˙˙ǝpısɐ uɐ ʇnq ʞlɐʇ ǝɥʇ uı lɐǝp ƃıq ɐ ʇ,uǝɹǝʍ sʇuǝɯɯoɔ ʎɯ puɐ  ˙noʎ ʇdǝɔxǝ ɯooɹ ʇɐɥʇ uı ǝuoʎɹǝʌǝ oʇ snoıʌqo sı sıɥʇ    ˙ʇuɐɔ ʎǝɥʇ ʎlɐɔıʇılod ʇnq  ¿ɹǝɟɟo ɹǝƃɹɐl ɥɔnɯ ǝɥʇ ǝʞɐʇ ʇou ʎɥʍ 'ʇuǝɯɥsıund ʇnoqɐ ʎllɐǝɹ sʇı ɟı ʇuıod *ʎɯ* os  ˙ǝsıʍ ɹd ɹǝʇʇǝq spunos ʇı ʞuıɥʇ ʎǝɥʇ ʇnq  ˙ɥɔnɯ sɐ ʇsnɾ ǝƃɐɯɐp oʇ ʇuɐǝɯ sı ƃuıpuɐɯǝp ǝɹɐ ʎǝɥʇ ʇɐɥʍ ɥƃnoɥʇ uǝʌǝ ˙˙˙˙ɥɔǝʇ ƃuıʞɐʇ pıoʌɐ oʇ spɹɐʍʞɔɐq ɹǝʌo ƃuıpuǝq ǝɹɐ ʎǝɥʇ ǝsnɐɔ suoʇʇnq ƃuıɥsnd ɯ,ı  ˙(ʇuıod ǝuo ʇɐ ʞɯ ɯoɹɟ ɥɔǝʇ ʎɐs uǝʌǝ ı ǝʌǝılǝq ı) ɥɔǝʇ ǝʞɐʇ ʇou ʎɥʍ  ˙pɹɐpuɐʇs ǝlqnop ǝɥʇ ʇnoqɐ  ǝɯoɥ ʇuıod ǝɥʇ ǝʌıɹp ı os  ˙ɹɐʍ ʇsod ƃuɔ ƃuıʍs oʇ pǝʇuɐʍ ʎǝɥʇ ǝsnɐɔǝq puɐ ɥɔǝʇ ɥɔnɯ os ǝʞɐʇ oʇ ʞool plnoʍ ʇı ʍoɥ ʇnoqɐ pǝıɹɹoʍ ǝɹǝʍ ʎǝɥʇ ǝsnɐɔǝq  ˙ʇı ʇdǝɔɔɐ ɹǝʌǝu llıʍ ɯnıɹqılınbǝ ʍouʞ llɐ ǝʍ ǝsnɐɔǝq  ¿sıɥʇ ʎɐs ı op ʎɥʍ  ˙ɐllǝɹqɯn/ʞɯ ɟo pɐǝʇsuı ʇı ʎɐd llıʍ upo puɐ  ˙ɥɔǝʇ ʞ001 ǝƃɹɐɥɔ ʇsnɾ noʎ ʇuop ʎɥʍ 'ʇuǝɯɥsıund ʇnoqɐ ʎllɐǝɹ sı sıɥʇ ɟı ʍoɥ ʇnoqɐ ʇuıod ɹǝʇunoɔ snoıʇǝɔɐɟ ɐ ǝʞɐɯ ı (2
˙sɥʇuoɯ ʍǝɟ ʎɹǝʌǝ sq lɐɔıʇılod ǝɯos ɹoɟ ʇno ʇı ʇoɹʇ oʇ pǝǝu ǝɥʇ lǝǝɟ noʎ ʇnq ˙ɹǝɟɟo ,lɐǝɹ, ɐ ʇusɐʍ ʇı ʍǝuʞ puɐ ˙ʇɐɥʇ pıɐs ı uǝɥʍ ƃuıop sɐʍ ı ʇɐɥʍ ʎlʇɔɐxǝ ʍǝuʞ (noʎ ƃuıpnlɔuı ʎlqɐqoɹd) ǝuoʎɹǝʌǝ sǝʎ ˙˙˙ɯooɹ ʇɐɥʇ uı ǝuoʎɹǝʌǝ ˙uo sɹǝpuılq ɹnoʎ ʇnd ǝʌɐɥ uoıssǝsqo ɹnoʎ uı noʎ ʇnq 'ƃuıʇǝǝɯ ƃuol ɹǝdns ƃuıʞɐǝɹɟ ɐ uı ǝƃuɐɥɔxǝ uoıʇɐıʇoƃǝu ǝpıus ɹouıɯ ɐ sɐʍ ʇı


There are 0 people on this planet who believe you were joking.  Not even 1, because even you know you weren't.
 

˙ɹǝʇʇǝq op 'uıɐƃɐ  ˙uɐɯ uo ǝɯoɔ  ¿ǝɔuɐʇs ʇıƃǝl lɐnʇɔɐ uɐ sɐ ɟɟo ʇı ssɐd puɐ oƃɐ sɹɐʍ ǝǝɹɥʇ ssɐ uɐ ƃuıǝq ǝɯ ɟo sƃol ʇxǝʇuoɔ uı-ıɯǝs uı ʍoɹɥʇ oʇ sı ǝnuǝʌɐ ǝlqıssod ʎluo ɹnoʎ 'ɟʍo ǝɥʇ uo ǝuo ʍǝu ɐ ǝɔuɐıllɐ ʇuǝɹɹnɔ ɹnoʎ ɹɐǝʇ ı uǝɥʍ ʇɐɥʇ ʇɔɐɟ ǝɥʇ ˙ƃuıƃuıls pnɯ ʇsǝuoɥsıp ʎllɐnʇɔǝllǝʇuı ʇou  ˙sʇuıod lɐnʇɔɐ uo ǝɔuɐʇs ɹnoʎ ɹoɟ ǝnƃɹɐ oʇ ʎɔuǝɔǝp ǝɥʇ ǝʌɐɥ

You brought it up, buddy.
 
You're correct: Everyone in that room knew exactly what you were doing.  You were offering to pay 100,000 tech in exchange for peace for Umbrella.

 

I think it's cute that you whined about how long the meeting was, since, ya know, it could've been 50% shorter if you hadn't spent an hour gasping at the negotiations rather than just negotiating.

 

Since you know that the logs are excerpted for brevity, not in order to twist them, but since you have said that's what I'm doing anyway, here are the full logs, which no one will read.

 

Session Start: Thu Mar 14 14:37:16 2013
Session Ident: #hardsheep
03[14:37] * Now talking in #hardsheep
03[14:37] * ChanServ sets mode: +oa Brehon[NPO] Brehon[NPO]
[14:37] <&Kestral> (I went to sorrento a few years ago, had a day in Rome on the way out)
[14:37] <&Kestral> woo, Brehon
[14:37] <~Jrenster> well at least brehon's auto join on invite is on!
[14:37] <&Kestral> oh 
[14:37] <&NobodyExpects> ' /cs #chan invite nick
[14:37] <&NobodyExpects> I think
[14:38] <~Jrenster> turns out it was /invite nick chan
[14:38] <&OsRavan[ODN]> hey brehon
[14:38] <~Jrenster> i had to mess around with the commands
[14:38] <~Jrenster> to figure that one out
03[14:38] * quiz (has joined #hardsheep
[14:38] <quiz> hello
[14:38] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ok
[14:38] <&NobodyExpects> Hey quiz
05[14:38] -ice.coldfront.net:@#hardsheep- Jrenster invited Farrin[NPO|ZzZz] into the channel.
[14:38] <&OsRavan[ODN]> well i think we are all here? are we resy to start this party?
[14:39] <~Jrenster> we still need brehon
[14:39] <&Kestral> ideally we'd grab someone from Umb too
[14:39] <~Jrenster> yeah. i pinged natan
[14:39] <~Jrenster> but he hasnt joined
[14:40] <~Jrenster> for some reason
[14:40] <&Kestral> I don't know the situation with Natan, but I know Daikos should be back around5-5.30 cst
[14:40] <&OsRavan[ODN]> brehon just entered
[14:40] <&Kestral> Brehon auto accepted the invite
[14:40] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ahh
[14:40] <~Jrenster> yeah
[14:40] <&Kestral> he isn't actually here
[14:40] <&OsRavan[ODN]> gotcha
[14:40] <&OsRavan[ODN]> well with this being pre-talks can farrin/jren sorta represent NPO  if we decide to start in the next few mijnutes?
[14:40] <~Jrenster> quiz, can you rejoin? i gave you sops
[14:41] <~Jrenster> i cant really talk on our behalf. it has to be brehon or farrin
[14:41] <~Jrenster> but farrin is at work and wont be back for another few hours
03[14:41] * quizhas left #hardsheep (cycling)
03[14:41] * quiz has joined #hardsheep
03[14:41] * ChanServ sets mode: +oa quiz quiz
[14:41] <&ncc[NG]> I thought we were starting at 17h CST?
[14:42] <~Jrenster> yeah, still got another 20 minutes
[14:42] <&OsRavan[ODN]> 0hh
[14:42] <&OsRavan[ODN]> then no rush
[14:42] <&OsRavan[ODN]> im sure brehon will show
[14:42] <&NobodyExpects> ok Brehons going to join ius
[14:42] <&OsRavan[ODN]> you got me all excited with the room
[14:42] <&ncc[NG]> Ah I forgot about the time shift.
[14:42] <&ncc[NG]> Gay.
[14:42] <&NobodyExpects> irishtime is realtime
[14:42] <&NobodyExpects> the rest is just bollox
01[14:42] <&Brehon[NPO]> Apologies I am here now
01[14:43] <&Brehon[NPO]> Hows it look to have Umb here?
[14:44] <&Kestral> I don't know with regards to Natan/Raken (although Natan looked to just log on), but otherwise Daikos could potentially join us when he gets back from work
[14:44] <&NobodyExpects> It killed Natan to mumble five words at me yesterday, not sure if that translates well to mass contrition
[14:44] <&Kestral> which would hopefully be ~5cst, but could be up to half past
[14:45] <&quiz> i've also shot natan a query
03[14:45] * ~Jrenster ) has left #hardsheep
Session Close: Thu Mar 14 14:46:35 2013

Session Start: Thu Mar 14 14:46:40 2013
Session Ident: #hardsheep
03[14:46] * Now talking in #hardsheep
03[14:46] * ChanServ sets mode: +oq Brehon[NPO] Brehon[NPO]
01[14:50] <~Brehon[NPO]> I need a couple minutes to finish up what I was working on
[14:50] <&NobodyExpects> no worries
03[14:52] * AirMe has joined #hardsheep
03[14:52] * ChanServ sets mode: +o AirMe
[14:52] <@AirMe> I expected pansy
[14:52] <@AirMe> with a channel name like that
[14:52] <&quiz> sup airme
[14:52] <@AirMe> I expected 100% more pansy
[14:53] <@AirMe> sup
[14:53] <&NobodyExpects> Hey AirMe
[14:54] <@AirMe> sup
01[15:01] <~Brehon[NPO]> Alright, I am back
01[15:01] <~Brehon[NPO]> Apologize for the delay
01[15:01] <~Brehon[NPO]> Any word on Umb being able to join us?
03[15:02] * AirMe is now known as AirMe|GoWanderers
[15:02] <&Kestral> afaik, daikos is trying to get natan
01[15:02] <~Brehon[NPO]> Alright
[15:09] <&Kestral> as an update, apparently natan has been texted
01[15:11] <~Brehon[NPO]> appreciated
03[15:15] * Manis_B[GATO]  has joined #hardsheep
03[15:15] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Manis_B[GATO]
[15:15] <&Klinker[TIO]> Heya Manis
03[15:15] * Momentum  has joined #hardsheep
03[15:15] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Momentum
01[15:15] <~Brehon[NPO]> Heya Manis
01[15:15] <~Brehon[NPO]> o/
[15:16] <@Manis_B[GATO]> howdy
[15:16] <@Manis_B[GATO]> how is everyone today?
[15:16] <&Klinker[TIO]> Alive, I think
[15:17] <&quiz> i too am alive
03[15:17] * Daikos  has joined #hardsheep
03[15:17] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Daikos
[15:17] <@Daikos> 'ello
[15:17] <&Kestral> Hello there
01[15:17] <~Brehon[NPO]> afternoon
[15:18] <&Kestral> I think we can probably get started whenever people are ready then
01[15:18] <~Brehon[NPO]> That works for me
[15:18] <@Daikos> Sounds good
[15:18] <&Kestral> although some of us might be slightly distracted by the football 
[15:18] <@Daikos> **soccer
01[15:19] <~Brehon[NPO]> I know there were some non official talks and opinions discussed.  Instead of doing that I figured we could just sit at the table and conduct these properly.
01[15:20] <~Brehon[NPO]> Thusly... everyone here is able to speak on behalf of their gov?  And not just give personal oppinions?  I would like to make sure we have solid distinction.
[15:20] <@Daikos> Yes
[15:20] <&Kestral> Yep
[15:21] <&quiz> yes
[15:21] <&Klinker[TIO]> Aye
[15:22] <@Momentum> Yes
01[15:23] <~Brehon[NPO]> Voodoo ?
01[15:23] <~Brehon[NPO]> Ravan ?
01[15:23] <~Brehon[NPO]> NCC you back yet?
[15:24] <&OsRavan[ODN]> brehon
[15:24] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ravan doesnt ping me
[15:24] <&OsRavan[ODN]> im here
[15:24] <&OsRavan[ODN]> lets start this thing
03[15:25] * Dre4m has joined #hardsheep
03[15:25] * ChanServ sets mode: +oa Dre4m Dre4m
[15:25] <&OsRavan[ODN]> so brehon, you wanna go first or can we just dive into this thing?
[15:26] <&quiz> before we begin, does anyone mind if i add leet to the channel?
[15:26] <&OsRavan[ODN]> teh?
[15:26] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i dont mind
[15:26] <&quiz> correct
[15:26] <@Daikos> go for it
01[15:26] <~Brehon[NPO]> What gov level is he?
[15:26] <&OsRavan[ODN]> he is the same rank as quiz i think
01[15:26] <~Brehon[NPO]> We are not looking for everyone here, just proper gov members.
[15:26] <&quiz> he's a member of the enclave (like myself)
[15:26] <&OsRavan[ODN]> both enclave (i.e fa)
01[15:27] <~Brehon[NPO]> Alright
01[15:27] <~Brehon[NPO]> Go ahead and add him so we can get this started
[15:28] <&quiz> alright, cool, added him
[15:28] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i thin kwe can start while he gets in
[15:28] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ::is impatient!::
03[15:28] * Teh1337Guyhas joined #hardsheep
03[15:28] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Teh1337Guy
[15:28] <&OsRavan[ODN]> hey teh
[15:28] <@Teh1337Guy> hey Os
[15:28] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ok now we can definitly start ;:smirks::
01[15:28] <~Brehon[NPO]> Hey Leet
01[15:29] <~Brehon[NPO]> Alright
01[15:29] <~Brehon[NPO]> So we have a couple of issue
[15:29] <@Teh1337Guy> So is it singular or plural
[15:29] <@Teh1337Guy> 
01[15:29] <~Brehon[NPO]> Unofficially there has been talk about you all wanting peace across the entire set of wars/fronts or whatever you want to call it?
01[15:29] <~Brehon[NPO]> That is accurate?
[15:29] <&OsRavan[ODN]> it is yes
[15:29] <@Daikos> Yes
[15:29] <&quiz> yes
[15:29] <@Teh1337Guy> I believe so, yes
[15:29] <&Kestral> mhm
[15:30] <&Kestral> What's the opinion like on your side over this?
01[15:30] <~Brehon[NPO]> Due to the parties involved, that possibility is almost zero.  There are just too many govs involved to do that properly and get anywhere.
[15:30] <&OsRavan[ODN]> we dont need one big mega thread with everyones names on it
[15:30] <@Teh1337Guy> You seem to have tried really hard at this, Brehon
[15:31] <&OsRavan[ODN]> we just wanna exit at the same time.. i.e not run the risk that say cng  peaces out
[15:31] <@Teh1337Guy> To gather up everyone together at least at some level
[15:31] <&OsRavan[ODN]> but people then decide to 'punish' dh
[15:31] <&quiz> yes, as os said. we just need to ensure that everyone is given peace.
[15:31] <&OsRavan[ODN]> cause everyone is gone
01[15:31] <~Brehon[NPO]> If we are going to start propaganda or trolling here Leet, we can just stop talking adn walk away.
[15:31] <&OsRavan[ODN]> its perfectly fine to negotiate at a different front level and then just post it at once
[15:31] <@Teh1337Guy> Fair enough, my point is this:
[15:31] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i.e if npo/dr front agrees to terms, we'll go to sf/xx work that out
[15:31] <&OsRavan[ODN]> and once everyone is agreed post in however many threads it takes
[15:31] <@Teh1337Guy> You say it's almost zero even though we have just made this request to you guys.
[15:32] <@Teh1337Guy> I like OsRavan[ODN] strategy
[15:32] <@Daikos> As do I.
01[15:32] <~Brehon[NPO]> Then I request in good faith for TOP, CnG to shut down
01[15:32] <~Brehon[NPO]> That is my request
[15:33] <&OsRavan[ODN]> what do you mean by shut down?
[15:33] <&OsRavan[ODN]> as in stop warring with NPO/DR?
01[15:33] <~Brehon[NPO]> Work peace then let us work with the original front.
[15:33] <&OsRavan[ODN]> the problem with that.. and ill be blunt cause i know you appreciate that.. we've been hearing things about how certain alliances wont be allowed peace
[15:34] <&OsRavan[ODN]> cause they havent been punished enough
[15:34] <&Kestral> we're happy to work for peace on any front, just as long as they're only put into action when we're all out
01[15:34] <~Brehon[NPO]> Lets not be gerneal lets be direct.
[15:34] <&OsRavan[ODN]> 'punished'
[15:34] <&Kestral> even if the deals are sorted out seperately and at different times
[15:34] <&OsRavan[ODN]> my concern and i think i speak for all of cng.. is we dont want to shut down but hten find that our allies in dh are being denied terms
[15:34] <&OsRavan[ODN]> and kept in some indefinite war
01[15:35] <~Brehon[NPO]> No one has desire for indefinite war.  That is good CN propaganda but not realistic in any way.
[15:35] <@Teh1337Guy> Right
01[15:35] <~Brehon[NPO]> Simple question:  Do you feel you have lost? 
[15:35] <&OsRavan[ODN]> then out of curiosity why cant we agree to terms for everyone fighting npo/dr
[15:35] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i mean we are all here
[15:35] <&OsRavan[ODN]> we are willing to concede defeat yes
01[15:35] <~Brehon[NPO]> That is not what I asked
[15:36] <@Teh1337Guy> [18:31] <~Brehon[NPO]> Then I request in good faith for TOP, CnG to shut down
[15:36] <@Teh1337Guy> [18:31] <~Brehon[NPO]> That is my request
[15:36] <@Teh1337Guy> [18:31] <&OsRavan[ODN]> what do you mean by shut down? // still wondering what this means
[15:36] <&Kestral> we've lost, but we could keep fighting if that makes sense?
[15:36] <&OsRavan[ODN]> what kestral said. we've lost clearly, but we arent toothless in our loss ::grins::
[15:36] <@Momentum> Teh1337Guy: That CnG and TOP close their fronts (peace out) first
[15:36] <@Momentum> at least that's what I understood from it
01[15:37] <~Brehon[NPO]> Correct Momentum
[15:37] <&OsRavan[ODN]> can you explain to me why that needs to happen first if you plan to offer dh terms?
[15:37] <&quiz> may i inquire as to why that needs to happen?
[15:37] <@Teh1337Guy> ^^
01[15:37] <~Brehon[NPO]> Because they are add ons to the original war dec
[15:38] <@Momentum> The same problems that could prevent a coalition wide peace will still be there when negotiating separately
[15:38] <&Kestral> if we get the peace for CnG/NG etc ironed out on paper, would you be willing to then sort out the DH/DR/NPO peace terms for them to come into effect at the same time?
[15:38] <&OsRavan[ODN]> brehon you always say to ask you directly, so im asking you directly.  Do you intend to hold dh in war once cng peaces out?  Im not sure i understand why cng can be told what would be demanded of them when you cant tell dh the same?
[15:38] <&ncc[NG]> Hello, sorry I couldn't be here earlier.
[15:38] <@Momentum> Hey ncc[NG]
[15:39] <&OsRavan[ODN]> peacing out together for the record is something thats alwyas been allowed in all recent global wars when it was *wanted*
[15:39] <@Teh1337Guy> Kestral yeah that's what I thought we're working towards here
[15:39] <&ncc[NG]> Just had a quick glance over what has been said so far.
[15:39] <&OsRavan[ODN]> or kestral said it well
[15:39] <&ncc[NG]> Am I right in thinking that you're leaning towards peacing our front out first, and then dealing with DH separately?
[15:39] <&NobodyExpects> semantics OsRavan[ODN] never happened in practice and without some "terms" attached
01[15:39] <~Brehon[NPO]> On the DH front there are additional requests we have to take into account.  First and foremost reps are not on the table.  White peace is not on the table.
[15:39] <&NobodyExpects> I admire your CN romanticism mind
[15:39] <&OsRavan[ODN]> tell us what the terms are then
[15:40] <@Momentum> We can hear those terms, and we can hash separate peace terms even.
01[15:40] <~Brehon[NPO]> There is talk of limiting outside aid to them for a period of time.
[15:40] <@Momentum> but the timing should be similar
02[15:40] * @AirMe|GoWanderers Quit (Ping timeout)
[15:40] <&ncc[NG]> Anyone? :+
[15:40] <&Kestral> you see this had to be the concern Brehon, that if we all peace out first, what happens if these 'extra terms' end up being worse than expected?
[15:40] <&ncc[NG]> Yes/No
[15:41] <@Momentum> ncc[NG]: Yes
[15:41] <@Daikos> Yes ncc
[15:41] <&NobodyExpects> I don't believe in terms personally, only war or peace
[15:41] <&Kestral> it's why we feel we can't bail on DH on this
[15:41] <&ncc[NG]> Ok. Thankks.
01[15:41] <~Brehon[NPO]> Are they being charged reps, absolutely not
[15:41] <&ncc[NG]> NobodyExpects: you have to wrap things up some how. :+
[15:41] <&NobodyExpects> a handshake
[15:41] <&Kestral> baring in mind that CnG might be a peripheral front, but we're still a defensive one
[15:41] <&Kestral> we're not talking oppourtunists here
[15:42] <&OsRavan[ODN]> true but not reps leaves a lot of open ground.  Can you not tell us what you want exactly?
[15:42] <&Kestral> we came in for DH, so you have to see why we don't want to leave without them
[15:42] <&ncc[NG]> Well, ok. But that would be your prerogative and I'm not sure the rest of your front will buy into absolutely zero terms.
[15:42] <&ncc[NG]> I thought you (AI) were keen on getting Umbrella to apologize?
01[15:42] <~Brehon[NPO]> Oh I thought you came in for ODN and INT Kestral
[15:42] <&ncc[NG]> That seems contradictory tbh.
[15:42] <&Kestral> I was talking about CnG as a whole Brehon
[15:42] <&ncc[NG]> (I'm not trying to be a dick, just wondering where you stand.)
01[15:43] <~Brehon[NPO]> give me a sec and let me pull up something
[15:43] <&Kestral> of course
[15:44] <&NobodyExpects> unmeant, forced and demanded apologies are less useful than !@#$ on your shoe
[15:44] <@Daikos> Agreed
[15:47] <&ncc[NG]> That's nice to hear!
[15:47] <&ncc[NG]> Does this mean you'll be ruling out an apology as a term, then?
[15:48] <&quiz> <~Brehon[NPO]> There is talk of limiting outside aid to them for a period of time. < regarding this, do you mean restricting outside aid to DH broadly or each DH alliance specifically?
01[15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> Umbrella - 5 months no outside tech deals, all AA jumpers back to their AA's, those in AA's not declared that are taking part in wars (undeclared as in jump to another AA or created an AA) that are not back will be treated as rogues without intervention:  Everyone else (and NE etc correct me if I missed anything) admission of defeat and surrender (this includes Umbrella)
01[15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> DH has to do her own tech deals
01[15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> sorry Umbrella has to do her own tech deals internally
01[15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> Not outside
01[15:48] <~Brehon[NPO]> at all, not even DH
[15:49] <&quiz> wow no take-backs
[15:49] <@Daikos> welp
[15:49] <@Daikos> no chance we will ever agree to that.
01[15:49] <~Brehon[NPO]> Okay
[15:50] <&quiz> is this the only term?
01[15:50] <~Brehon[NPO]> NE have I missed anything?
[15:50] <&NobodyExpects> You still need to be my !@#$%* quiz that was on our forums afair 
[15:50] <&NobodyExpects> but that aside no seems to be the list of stuff other people have thrown out there
[15:50] <&ncc[NG]> 5 months is a long time...
[15:50] <&quiz> 
[15:50] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ive gotta ask out of curiosity.  Is 'no reps' just a pr thing? it seems to me you are trying to do the damage of reps without being forced to say the word reps
[15:51] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i.e pick the same itme period it would normaly cost to pay huge reps
[15:51] <&quiz> and yes, five months without outside aid is worse than reparations in many regards
[15:51] <&OsRavan[ODN]> and tie up slots the same as if they were paying
01[15:51] <~Brehon[NPO]> It is up to you to offer a counter.  We still have a lot of alliances to talk to/with, as do you.
[15:51] <&OsRavan[ODN]> if the goal here is to stunt someones growth and 'punish' them for past actions (what exactly is umbrella being punished for by the way?) why not just call a horse a horse
[15:52] <&OsRavan[ODN]> im just trying to understand the logic
[15:52] <&OsRavan[ODN]> both 1) why the extra demands are being leveled on umbrella.  2) my question about reps. if the goal here is to do what reps do without calling it reps why dance around? just put up a rep number
[15:52] <&ncc[NG]> Can you remember when idea of restricting Umbrella's tech deals was conceived, btw?
01[15:53] <~Brehon[NPO]> Umbrella was the cause.  that answers #1
[15:53] <&Kestral> so 5 months of no external aid for slot filling?
[15:53] <&OsRavan[ODN]> right, but why was umbrella the cause? are you saying its 5 months with no aid cause mp slot filled?
01[15:53] <~Brehon[NPO]> for #2, are they paying anyone?  No.  If you feel that is not proper, then you can of course offer a counter.
[15:54] <&quiz> Daikos, as you are the representative for Umbrella, what sort of terms would you be willing to accept?
03[15:54] * Sardonic has joined #hardsheep
[15:54] <&OsRavan[ODN]> umbrella did the mp thing or didnt do it whatever.  AI went to war with them on that cb.  Then won that war.
03[15:55] * Teh1337Guy sets mode: +s
[15:55] <&OsRavan[ODN]> so what is umbrella being punished for now?
01[15:55] <~Brehon[NPO]> If you want a philosophical debate, this is not the place for it.
[15:55] <&quiz> more importantly, as kestral has pointed out, why does slot-filling merit five months of no outside aid?
[15:55] <&OsRavan[ODN]> not philosiphical. specific
[15:55] <&OsRavan[ODN]> what has umbrella done that others have not
[15:55] <&OsRavan[ODN]> that they are getting extra terms?
01[15:56] <~Brehon[NPO]> If you have something to offer a counter, lets here it.  I am waiting for Umbrella to respond if they have something they wish to offer.
[15:56] <&Kestral> Ok sure, in the meantime if I may ask a question
01[15:56] <~Brehon[NPO]> We have done (certainly I) have done the list of greviences I have with Umbrella.  I have no desire to go over them again.
[15:56] <@Daikos> Well it's pretty obvious that there is a strong attempt right now to cripple us for the forseable future.  Everyone knows that this war was being pushed for by parties on both sides.  As NobodyExpects already pointed out, false apologies are worthless. 
01[15:56] <~Brehon[NPO]> By all means Kestral
01[15:57] <~Brehon[NPO]> Dont want an apology
[15:57] <&Kestral> are you receptive to the idea of the peaces being sorted out seperately, but coming into effect when peace has been agreed on on all fronts?
[15:57] <&NobodyExpects> Aye we dont
01[15:57] <~Brehon[NPO]> I would be willing to give that idea to the coalition for them to discuss that point of it.
[15:57] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i thought the whole point here though, was we were moving past those sorta terms.  That it was a new era where you had an issue with umbrella. we all fought and fought hard. and then we move on
[15:57] <@Daikos> Well, I've already stated the terms you put down will never be accepted.
[15:57] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i.e wasnt the whole WAR your 'punishment'
[15:58] <@Teh1337Guy> ^
01[15:58] <~Brehon[NPO]> So Daikos what do you have for a counter?
[15:58] <@Daikos> And pretending they aren't reps is ludicrous.
[15:58] <@Daikos> <&OsRavan[ODN]> i.e wasnt the whole WAR your 'punishment'
[15:58] <Sardonic> I distinctly remember the war being the punishment being a big thing with you brehon
[15:58] <&NobodyExpects> Umbrella dont want peace
[15:58] <@Daikos> there you go.  you gave us the punch in the mouth you wanted.
[15:58] <&NobodyExpects> is there any point to this sham
[15:58] <&NobodyExpects> if thats the truth of the matter?
[15:58] <@Daikos> If we didn't want peace we wouldn't be here.
[15:59] <&NobodyExpects> enforced surrenders are as pointless as enforced apologies after all?
01[15:59] <~Brehon[NPO]> Then this is your opportunity to offer a counter.
[15:59] <&NobodyExpects> and your peace is clearly enforced
[15:59] <@Teh1337Guy> Daikos has to bring it back to Natan anyways
[15:59] <&OsRavan[ODN]> my counter would be we admitt you won, we shake hands and say 'good fight' and all move on
[15:59] <&OsRavan[ODN]> since when did that become a bad thing?
01[15:59] <~Brehon[NPO]> I am pretty sure Leet, Daikos can talk for himself.
[16:00] <@Daikos> Since it became clear the intent is to cripple Doomhouse for some time.
01[16:00] <~Brehon[NPO]> So you have no counter?
[16:00] <&ncc[NG]> This doesn't seem particularly productive guys.
[16:00] <&OsRavan[ODN]> my counter was legit brehon
[16:00] <&Voodoo> Hello all
[16:00] <&OsRavan[ODN]> i speak for all of us on that
[16:00] <@Daikos> I am agreeable to what Os stated
[16:01] <&OsRavan[ODN]> and if someone screws with you again
[16:01] <&ncc[NG]> There's no good just shouting at them about how unjust their original suggestion is.
[16:01] <&OsRavan[ODN]> you punch them in the face again
[16:01] <&Kestral> I would also concur to that, a good handshake is hard to beat
[16:01] <&NobodyExpects> summer solstice
[16:01] <&NobodyExpects> handshakes all round
[16:01] <&Kestral> plus perpetual war helps SF/XX and none of us
[16:01] <&quiz> MK finds those terms agreeable
01[16:01] <~Brehon[NPO]> So end that war front
[16:01] <&NobodyExpects> seems fair
[16:01] <&OsRavan[ODN]> to me Nobody, based on our earlier convo, what this reads as is you trying to turn an honorable fight into a 'punishment' fight.
01[16:02] <~Brehon[NPO]> NE isn't doing anything of the osrt
01[16:02] <~Brehon[NPO]> of the sort
[16:02] <&ncc[NG]> Didn't NobodyExpects say he likes no terms, fight and walk away?
01[16:02] <~Brehon[NPO]> I have given to you some of the things talkeda bout in our coalition about wants.
[16:02] <&OsRavan[ODN]> im not angry, but im dissapointed in what im hearing here i have to admitt. I was under the impression that when this war was ready to end we would shake hands like adults and move on
[16:03] <&Kestral> Brehon, we can't end one front before the others
01[16:03] <~Brehon[NPO]> NE likes war, that was his personal take on it, which was then used by those involved on your side to run around and push how NE wanted eternal war.
[16:03] <&Kestral> you know we're not like that
01[16:03] <~Brehon[NPO]> Then it was used about how SF/XX want to keep things at war.
01[16:03] <~Brehon[NPO]> That crap has to stop
[16:03] <&Kestral> and I know you wouldn't do the same if the situation was switched
01[16:03] <~Brehon[NPO]> Show the faith and shut them down.
[16:03] <Sardonic> With what leverage are we supposed to do that?
[16:03] <&OsRavan[ODN]> how can we do that when what you are now demanding of dh is against what youve been impling you wanted from day one
[16:04] <&Kestral> it's not you lot I don't trust, but SF/XX even might then take a shot at DH for all we know
01[16:05] <~Brehon[NPO]> I was on the opposite side and was run roughshod so that pity wont work on me.  As for NPO, we are right were we started NPO doesn't want reps, we are fine with it shutting down.  But regardless the voice and needs of the coalition have to be met as well.  If you want to do the all shut down, you now know what is having to be dealth with.  So... if we can get the others shut down and Umbrella gets to dance with us, I think everyone will be more happy.
01[16:05] <~Brehon[NPO]> So shut down SF/XX
01[16:06] <~Brehon[NPO]> aka shut down the CnG front
[16:06] <&Kestral> I haven't passed this by Umb, but in order for us to even consider that, we'd need a definate limit on how long the war could possibly extend for after we left
[16:06] <&Kestral> and honestly, I don't see a good solution coming from that
01[16:06] <~Brehon[NPO]> Like I said, you need a counter that is more progressive than what you have stated.  I can't fix your sf/xx concerns in that way, at all.
01[16:06] <~Brehon[NPO]> No one here can.
[16:06] <&ncc[NG]> Brehon[NPO]: this is my concern which I'm sure you've heard from others as well as me already.
[16:07] <&ncc[NG]> If we peace out this front, we (NG) specifically need something concrete to know you're not going to $%&@ over MK.
[16:07] <&Kestral> it's not my SF/XX concern here
[16:07] <&ncc[NG]> GOONS too, I guess.
[16:07] <&Kestral> my concern is, that if we peace out that front
[16:07] <&OsRavan[ODN]> right
[16:07] <Sardonic> Your opening offer can't seriously be no aid for 5 months for all of DH?  How are we supposed to counter that?
[16:07] <&OsRavan[ODN]> im not at all worried about sf/xx they can do what they want to us
[16:07] <Sardonic> It's barely even within good faith
[16:07] <&Kestral> we have no control if you suddenly decide not to offer DH peace
01[16:08] <~Brehon[NPO]> $%&@ over MK how... and I bent over backwards for NG on that, you konw this.
[16:08] <&ncc[NG]> I know you did.
[16:08] <&quiz> so, just to be clear on what you are offering: if we opt to continue pushing for everyone to peace out at once, umbrella must go without outside aid for five months. if we opt to work towards peace on three separate fronts, umbrella (and, consequently, DH) will be kept in an indefinite period of war.
[16:08] <&Voodoo> I will say this, it will be very difficult to get TOP or any alliance on our front to leave Umb or MK behind without 1) Anything concrete and 2) by assuming it's on good faith when we know the disdain you have for both
[16:08] <Sardonic> This is leagues worse than reps brehon in economic damages, and I think you know that.
[16:08] <&ncc[NG]> I'm just repeating my concern for the benefit of the discussion.
[16:08] <&NobodyExpects> no war for a couple to a few months
[16:08] <&NobodyExpects> not extending beyind the summer solstice
[16:08] <&Kestral> your other problem Brehon, is that on one hand you're stating a single offer - and not budging, yet refuting any counter as 'not progressive enough'
01[16:09] <~Brehon[NPO]> I never, EVER said Umbrella  or DH will be kept in an indefinite period of war.  If you have a time frame or something in mind, I guess that would be your problem.
[16:09] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ;:considers;: let me raise a possible counter
[16:09] <&ncc[NG]> Assume we have peaced out this front, what can/will you offer to those on our side who are allied to DH.
[16:09] <&OsRavan[ODN]> you let DH off with surrender, and ODN pays reps to those who feel our ally have wronged them
[16:09] <&quiz> i'm not looking to put words in your mouth, Brehon[NPO], just asking for clarification
01[16:09] <~Brehon[NPO]> No reps
[16:09] <&Kestral> So would you be willing to negate the external aid block, for a small window of DH/DR straight out?
[16:09] <&ncc[NG]> I believe you when you say they will not be kept in an indefinite war. I'm not suggesting that.
[16:10] <&Kestral> again, not passed by our side
[16:10] <&Kestral> I just want to test the water
01[16:10] <~Brehon[NPO]> I would be willing to bring it to the coalition
[16:10] <&OsRavan[ODN]> say we pay out 100,000 tech? (and I would need to run that by our senate)
[16:10] <&ncc[NG]> But we need to have some rough idea, because it would be no good to resolve that and then for DH to be hit with e.g. 5 months no aid.
[16:10] <&OsRavan[ODN]> we being only odn
01[16:10] <~Brehon[NPO]> NCC that is a fair comment.
[16:10] <&NobodyExpects> no reps
01[16:10] <~Brehon[NPO]> and NPO will not allow for reps
01[16:10] <~Brehon[NPO]> No one is paying anyone anything
[16:10] <&Kestral> the 5 month no external aid is worse than reps
[16:10] <&ncc[NG]> This is really pseudo-reps imo.
[16:10] <Sardonic> but, this is worse than reps
[16:10] <Sardonic> by a lot
[16:10] <&Kestral> don't kid yourself
[16:11] <&OsRavan[ODN]> what kestral said
[16:11] <&OsRavan[ODN]> what i dont like
[16:11] <&OsRavan[ODN]> is you are saying no reps
[16:11] <&ncc[NG]> quasi-reps? Whatever you want to call it.
01[16:11] <~Brehon[NPO]> But if you want peace, I need a quantifiable counter I can bring to the coalition
[16:11] <&OsRavan[ODN]> for PR reasons
[16:11] <&OsRavan[ODN]> but demanding something worse
[16:11] <&ncc[NG]> Which is fine in and of itself, but 5 months is a long time.
[16:11] <&ncc[NG]> That's my view, but that part is for DH itself to agree with you, not any of the rest of us.
[16:11] <&quiz> if umbrella is to be kept at war for a definite period of time, we would like to be made aware of how long that would be
[16:11] <&ncc[NG]> It is, however, unlikely we will agree to anything ourselves if that is the sort of thing which is on the table as we are leaving.
01[16:11] <~Brehon[NPO]> Quiz, NE said 2-3 months
01[16:12] <~Brehon[NPO]> Correct NE?
[16:12] <&NobodyExpects> Aye and thats a negotiable number plucked from thin air
[16:12] <&NobodyExpects> but indicative of how I personally see things
[16:12] <@Teh1337Guy> Right
01[16:13] <~Brehon[NPO]> Let me make this simple
[16:13] <&Kestral> So you'd be willing to drop the external aid stipulation for an extended war against DH?
[16:13] <&Kestral> that's what you're saying with that?
[16:13] <&NobodyExpects> and anyone who wishes to war with them
01[16:13] <~Brehon[NPO]> No demands of people leaving the war on our side.
01[16:14] <~Brehon[NPO]> But I think that could be a start
01[16:14] <~Brehon[NPO]> a start to finding a resolution
[16:14] <&Kestral> See that's where it gets interesting Brehon
[16:14] <&quiz> so, hypothetically speaking -- i am speaking out of curiosity, and am by no means implying that umbrella or DH would agree to this -- would you be willing to negotiate an extended war for a definite length of time in a peace treaty?
[16:14] <&Kestral> because lets say it was just DH fighting
[16:14] <&Kestral> there would surely have to be a limit on how many alliances can get in on that
01[16:14] <~Brehon[NPO]> They have a slot limit
01[16:14] <~Brehon[NPO]> So what they take is then limited to that
01[16:15] <~Brehon[NPO]> Quiz to answer your question, I think that is a hell of a start
01[16:16] <~Brehon[NPO]> Something I would have to bring to the coalition at large, again NE and I are also putting out their wants and concerns.
[16:16] <&ncc[NG]> Just for clarification, these are terms which will apply only to Umbrella?
[16:16] <&ncc[NG]> The rest of DH will not be subject to aid restrictions?
[16:16] <&ncc[NG]> Well, would not*
01[16:16] <~Brehon[NPO]> extended war, the aid restriction.  Of course no one would be able to aid or rejoin while the war was continuing.
01[16:16] <~Brehon[NPO]> ncc, yes, but no AA hoping to avoid it.
[16:17] <&ncc[NG]> Okey.
[16:17] <&Kestral> I still don't get why you're so insistant of getting everyone else out though, what if we just sat down now and agreed to all fight for another 2 weeks then shake hands? 
[16:17] <@Momentum> Extended war and then aid restriction on Umbrella?
[16:17] <&ncc[NG]> This will get confusing if we are all involved for this sort of minutae though.
01[16:17] <~Brehon[NPO]> Please note the very early bit about ending the aa hoping as a whole and those that still did it to be treated as rogues without interference.
[16:17] <&ncc[NG]> NobodyExpects, Brehon[NPO]: I think you need to talk to Umbrella directly about this.
[16:17] <&Kestral> and brehon, to confirm what you just said, and Momentum picked up on, you wouldn't be dropping the aid restriction for the extended war?
[16:17] <&quiz> <~Brehon[NPO]> Something I would have to bring to the coalition at large, again NE and I are also putting out their wants and concerns.
[16:17] <&quiz> fair enough
[16:17] <&ncc[NG]> Then we will be able to solve the wider war as that progresses.
01[16:18] <~Brehon[NPO]> I would bring it to the coalition
[16:18] <&ncc[NG]> Thanks for starting these discussions though.
01[16:18] <~Brehon[NPO]> And this ncc is why we are also for doing the fronts vs all at once.
[16:19] <&ncc[NG]> I presume you're splitting down the two broad lines, as opposed to alliance by alliance?
01[16:19] <~Brehon[NPO]> No one is looking to punish treaty defenders.  It was stupid when you all did it, its stupid to do it now.
01[16:19] <~Brehon[NPO]> ncc correct
[16:19] <&ncc[NG]> "you all did it"
[16:19] <&ncc[NG]> ouch
01[16:19] <~Brehon[NPO]> Umbrella was the goal, you all interferred.
01[16:19] <~Brehon[NPO]> 
[16:19] <&Kestral> didn't you already score though?
[16:19] <&ncc[NG]> Wow
[16:19] <&Kestral> it feels a bit like you're teabagging the goaly with some of those aid restrictions
[16:19] <&ncc[NG]> I'm going to take that as a joke. !@#$%*. :+
01[16:19] <~Brehon[NPO]> ncc 
01[16:20] <~Brehon[NPO]> Kestral I am bringing the coalition wants to the table, that is the duty NE and I have here.
[16:20] <&ncc[NG]> Kestral: would have been pretty funny if Umbrella bent over and took that straight away though. 
[16:20] <&Kestral> I'm watching the MK invitational at the same time
[16:20] <&Kestral> I couldn't help the reference
01[16:21] <~Brehon[NPO]> So umbrella is the goalie?
[16:21] <&Kestral> I think so
01[16:21] <~Brehon[NPO]> Too bad it was a boxing match where there is not goalie
[16:21] <&Kestral> well if umbrella was the goal, I imagine that must mean a goal against them
01[16:21] <~Brehon[NPO]> See you guys entered for the wrong reason.
[16:21] <&Kestral> so they must've been the goalie
[16:22] <&Kestral> I didn't see us having the choice 
01[16:22] <~Brehon[NPO]> You always have a choice.
01[16:22] <~Brehon[NPO]> Always
[16:22] <&Kestral> we do love us some CnG
[16:22] <Sardonic> Seriously though
[16:22] <&Kestral> yeah but I like what CnG stands for a little too much to squidge it into the mud and leave ODN and Int to it
[16:22] <Sardonic> aid restrictions?
01[16:23] <~Brehon[NPO]> Lets all remember how negotiations work... something is offered, something is counter offered.
01[16:23] <~Brehon[NPO]> If we are going to complain about them, well we have the OWF for that.
[16:23] <&Kestral> yes, but our counter offers weren't progressive enough
[16:23] <&Kestral> so you ignored them 
01[16:23] <~Brehon[NPO]> Quiz had a solid question /counter in there
01[16:23] <~Brehon[NPO]> if I recall
[16:23] <&Kestral> lets not get into double standards now
[16:23] <&Kestral> sure
[16:23] <Sardonic> you talk big about wanting shorter wars with light terms, but your starting offer is a half of year of economic starvation?
01[16:23] <~Brehon[NPO]> Where I said I would bring it back to the coalition
01[16:23] <~Brehon[NPO]> Yeah those kinds of things suck dont they Sard.
[16:24] <&NobodyExpects> I am for longer wars with non terms Sard 
[16:24] <&Kestral> and yet you're not after TLR, and our consitutents probably got you the last nasty reps NPO faced?
[16:24] <Sardonic> so, forced disbandment then, NobodyExpects? 
01[16:24] <~Brehon[NPO]> But like I said, give a real counter offer.  If that counter offer is a period of additional war with Umbrella or etc, okay, I can take that back.
[16:24] <&Kestral> even if I don't think GR had a seat at the table...
[16:24] <Sardonic> you're going to need a time machine then, the inititive era died a long time ago
[16:24] <&Kestral> I think it has to be taken as a legitemate counter offer Brehon
01[16:24] <~Brehon[NPO]> Oh stop the dramatics Sard.
[16:24] <&NobodyExpects> lol Sard
[16:25] <&Kestral> the idea that we just shake hands like adults and walk away
01[16:25] <~Brehon[NPO]> Which Kestral?
[16:25] <Sardonic> I was making a joke
[16:25] <&NobodyExpects> that was weak at best
02[16:25] * @Momentum Quit (Ping timeout)
01[16:25] <~Brehon[NPO]> So is it shake hands and walk away or extended war with Umbrella
[16:26] <&Kestral> well that depends, if you're feeling really nice my nation could even use some tech back
01[16:26] <~Brehon[NPO]> So again... is your counter a or b
[16:26] <&Kestral> I think we need to clarify something anyway
[16:26] <&Kestral> on both sides
01[16:26] <~Brehon[NPO]> if its a, this went no where, if its b, then we have something to discuss with our coalition.
[16:26] <&Kestral> the idea of an extended warwith Umbrella
[16:26] <&Kestral> are people assuming that to mean just Umbrella, or DH too?
[16:26] <&ncc[NG]> Brehon[NPO]: we can't speak for Umbrella.
01[16:26] <~Brehon[NPO]> You tell me
[16:27] <&Kestral> yeah b does seem more likely, but I think that's Umb's call
01[16:27] <~Brehon[NPO]> Umbrella is here.
[16:27] <&ncc[NG]> Oh, well it'd be nice to hear them
01[16:27] <~Brehon[NPO]> god I agree
[16:27] <&ncc[NG]> (not something I ever thought I'd say)
[16:27] <&NobodyExpects> Aye
[16:27] <&Kestral> I'm meaning both side Brehon, I was just wondering how you were interpreting this
[16:27] <&Kestral> consider it testing the water if you will
[16:27] <@Daikos> We are interested in an extended war depending on those involved and length.
[16:27] <&Kestral> trying to figure what will actually float each way
01[16:27] <~Brehon[NPO]> Honestly Kestral, I am fine with either.
01[16:28] <~Brehon[NPO]> Daikos you only have so many slots
01[16:28] <~Brehon[NPO]> So if we fill them it doesn't much amtter who is filling them.
01[16:28] <~Brehon[NPO]> If you want that limited lets here it.
01[16:28] <~Brehon[NPO]> aka give me a solid counter offer.
[16:29] <@Daikos> Well first I would want to know if you want it with just us or DH as a whole.
01[16:29] <~Brehon[NPO]> make an offer
[16:30] <@Daikos> I'd have to discuss with the rest of my alliance and Doomhouse before we even began to make an offer.
01[16:30] <~Brehon[NPO]> k
[16:30] <&Kestral> at least this talk has been a step in the right direction though
[16:31] <Sardonic> yes, the table has been set
[16:31] <Sardonic> even if somebody decided to stick a knife into it like some sort of viking action hero 
01[16:31] <~Brehon[NPO]> Like I said, I have to give the coalition wants without putting out who is saying it.  The coalition folks have to be heard.
01[16:32] <~Brehon[NPO]> So I put it on the table, asked for a counter.  you all (DH) have to talk about that counter... good.
[16:33] <Sardonic> well I can't speak for anybody but goons but I'd be fine with an extended war, within reason.
[16:33] <&Kestral> lets just hope any talks with SF/XX can go so well
01[16:33] <~Brehon[NPO]> Kestral on that front... what are you willing to offer
01[16:33] <~Brehon[NPO]> So I can bring all information back
[16:33] <&Kestral> I'm not sure to be quite honest
01[16:33] <~Brehon[NPO]> Well you are here   lets make the most of it.
[16:34] <&Kestral> I'd honestly like to think that everyone involved saw it as a clean peripheral front, and we could just white peace it out
[16:34] <&Kestral> I don't think reps should be on the table
01[16:34] <~Brehon[NPO]> alright
01[16:34] <~Brehon[NPO]> is surrender/defeat an avaialable offer?
[16:34] <&Kestral> so yeah, my offer has to be shaking hands and congratulating them
[16:34] <&Kestral> sure
01[16:34] <~Brehon[NPO]> Alright.
01[16:34] <~Brehon[NPO]> TOP what about you?
06[16:35] * ~Brehon[NPO] nudges Voodoo
[16:35] <&Voodoo> I'd have to discuss it with the legislature
01[16:35] <~Brehon[NPO]> Please do.
[16:35] <&Voodoo> As we've mentioned previously when DT offered, white peace would work just fine. Everyone walks away like gentlemen
01[16:35] <~Brehon[NPO]> So outside of that you have nothing to offer?
01[16:35] <~Brehon[NPO]> ahh alright
01[16:36] <~Brehon[NPO]> is surrender/defeat an available offer?
[16:36] <&Voodoo> If the Heptagon supports it, I'll let the front know
01[16:36] <~Brehon[NPO]> Very good.
[16:37] <&NobodyExpects> we are on that front Voodoo so pls dont forget us, its been known to happen
[16:37] <&Voodoo> We told your allies to contact you
[16:37] <Sardonic> oh please don't start that BS
[16:37] <&Voodoo> and I'll leave it at that
01[16:38] <~Brehon[NPO]> Voodoo, you are capable of contacting Ai directly
01[16:38] <~Brehon[NPO]> or NPO
01[16:38] <~Brehon[NPO]> so lets not play games.
[16:38] <&Voodoo> I'm not. NPO wasn't on the front and AI's allies are also more than capable. The OWF propaganda doesn't work here
01[16:39] <~Brehon[NPO]> So now NPO is, and as NE has stated, contact there whould be.
[16:39] <&Voodoo> It's a moot point
01[16:39] <~Brehon[NPO]> Exactly Voodoo so don't be a !@#$.
[16:39] <&Kestral> but he's so good at it
01[16:40] <~Brehon[NPO]> Oh I agree
[16:40] <&Kestral> but the petulance from both sides is getting just slightly stale
01[16:41] <~Brehon[NPO]> Voodoo give Ai the respect to talk to them directly since you attacked them.  No propaganda no anything.  Do the right thing.
03[16:41] * &Voodoo  has left #hardsheep
03[16:41] * Voodoo has joined #hardsheep
03[16:41] * ChanServ sets mode: +oa Voodoo Voodoo
[16:41] <&Voodoo> Damn keyboard
01[16:42] <~Brehon[NPO]> heh
[16:42] <&Voodoo> Brehon, as I said. It's a moot point, so whatever makes you sleep better at night.
06[16:42] * ~Brehon[NPO] sighs
[16:42] <&Voodoo> Now, can we move on?
[16:43] <&Voodoo> Ok, good. Contact will be given to the front
01[16:43] <~Brehon[NPO]> See how easy that was
01[16:44] <~Brehon[NPO]> Any other issues/fronts or etc that need questions/comments etc?
[16:44] <Sardonic> Brehon, Is condesention really warranted?
01[16:44] <~Brehon[NPO]> I would ask the same
[16:44] <Sardonic> not from me
[16:45] <&OsRavan[ODN]> ok gang its superl ate and ive got an early and busy day
[16:45] <&OsRavan[ODN]> so night
[16:45] <&quiz> see you OS
[16:45] <@Teh1337Guy> Nope. I imagine MK will peace out our various SF/XX fronts with TOP/CnG
[16:45] <@Daikos> I have nothing else.
[16:45] <@Teh1337Guy> however they want to proceed with those, we are willing to do so as they will
03[16:47] * Dre4mwe4ver|GATO () has joined #hardsheep
02[16:48] * &Dre4m Quit (Quit: something broke)

Edited by Schattenmann

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Wait, this is a debate about something in said once 2011?  We have damn global war going on.  Can you all not at least argue about that instead.  Or at least something from this year? 2011? Really?  

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;:grins:: The Schatt can't let go.... I suppose if I was in his position this war, I would want to keep reliving equilibrium too.

 

Heh and good point Shimmer.  I think i'll go back to ignoring this sub-forum of the OWF.

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˙ɟʍo ǝɥʇ ɟo ɯnɹoɟ-qns sıɥʇ ƃuıɹouƃı oʇ ʞɔɐq oƃ ll,ı ʞuıɥʇ ı  ˙ɹǝɯɯıɥs ʇuıod pooƃ puɐ ɥǝɥ

That's what I would advise you to do if I were in your shoes.

Edited by Schattenmann

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Wait, this is a debate about something in said once 2011?  We have damn global war going on.  Can you all not at least argue about that instead.  Or at least something from this year? 2011? Really?  

For as long as OsRavan says that he never did XYZ when he in fact did do XYZ, I will point out that he did do it.  See my sig for more.

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Heh and good point Shimmer.  I think i'll go back to ignoring this sub-forum of the OWF.


I don't even care about 2011 [or any of this topic to begin with] ... Could be 2009, or 2013 ... But ignoring what is right in front of you is something you do well ..

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I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'll just point out that the eQ war was in 2013, not 2011, since I've seen that year thrown around a couple of times.

 

Carry on.

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i read all of the logs and it still doesn't look like a joke to me

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I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'll just point out that the eQ war was in 2013, not 2011, since I've seen that year thrown around a couple of times.
 
Carry on.

Right, I missed that in TBB's post.  Eq was 2013, we have been pointing out Os's doublespeak and generally sadistic disconnect with reality since 2011 when it first baffled us.
 

i read all of the logs and it still doesn't look like a joke to me

I, for one, when I purposefully make a joke in the middle of extremely tense high-level negotiations, make sure I use a smiley.  No smileys here.

Edited by Schattenmann

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The TWiP material was much better, nothing particularly interesting here unless it was buried in that massive logdump.

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How about you choose something more recent to harp on obessively. Bring back TWI, it was a lot more intresting.

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