Announcement from VE, PC, Fok, iFOK, MN, and NpO

[Haflinger]

[quote name='neneko' timestamp='1300195539' post='2665542']
While keeping the enemy out of peacemode if possible is important it doesn't really have that big effect on these nation since they can only do this against people at their size.

Overall nations like penkalas and methrages have little more impact on the war effort than the average nation at that size.
[/quote]
Well, they can only do it against people who are currently in their range, yeah. But a guy like Penkala can hit nations who used to be 30K or so, given that they've been blown up in war.

It's rare actually for individual nations to have much impact in the war effort, barring in the over-100K range, though, anyway.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1300190625' post='2665502']
It's quite rational to believe that he might sell tech, yes. If we weren't at war, I'd want to buy from him actually, to add another entry to my list of Tech Bought From Famous Old CN Personages.

You however collected taxes today with 1K infra. You obviously don't have enough warchest left to reach tech-buying size.
[/quote]

You don't know me very well. I've collected at 1k infra with well over $100 million before.

[quote]It's Penkala, it's what he does. Stays tiny, attacks poxy little nations then brags about how he defeated them in his stupid blogs. [/quote]

If by 'attacking little nations' you mean 'attacks the most challenging, often nuclear, nations in range', then yes, that's what I do.

Of course, you'd know that if you bothered to do anything other than look at my NS. Just look at my last 3 wars for a good example of the wars I fight. 3 targets, 2 of them active and fighting back, one of them that I'm just helping keep at war. 1 of them has nukes (and an SDI!) and tons of money, plus 90% spy odds on me. I don't have an SDI.

Does that look like I'm "picking on the little guys to you"?

[quote]You don't hear of many war heroes whose job it was to beat up children in already captured territory. On a nation-size scale, there's nothing wrong with it, they're just kind of losers who can't fight the real war where it matters. [/quote]

Once again.. these aren't "children". I'm attacking the targets that are causing VE the most trouble.

[quote]Overall nations like penkalas and methrages have little more impact on the war effort than the average nation at that size. [/quote]

I highly disagree. If you mean costing NpO hundreds of millions in war aid (Wasdrogan required $35 + million alone while fighting me) and saving VE hundreds of million in war and rebuilding aid is "little more impact ... than an average nation at that size [can do]", then, simply put, you're wrong.

In the overall outcome of the war, I'm unimportant because of how small my nation is. But when compared to an "average nation" at my strength I'm dozens of times more effective and efficient. When I can take someone from a $41m warchest to nothing in 3 days (and then she needed aided...), I'm having a lot more impact than what one of our "average nations" can do.

Basically... if you're really saying that I'm not more effective than an average member at my NS, you're kind of an idiot. If we're talking about on the overall war effort, I still do more to help it than an average member, but I still don't do a whole lot. The main difference is in how I can affect aid flow and aid slot usage, not preventing peace mode, by the way. I am reducing it significantly for VE and increasing it significantly for NpO. Forcing NpO to send a lot more aid to 5k NS nations drains their warchests and prevents the aid from getting to those who can use it to damage our higher NS nations.

[quote]You know there is an old quote out there somewhere about letting sleeping dogs lay. I will give you this piece of advice Penkalla you are not in the same class as sponge and if he wants you he will eventually get you. His track record speaks for itself. Take the WOTC out of it where he was basically forced from power hes been a string puller on bob before you or I ever got here. No im not a sponge fan but I can give respect where it is due. Bravado is great but being stupid is just being stupid. [/quote]

Maybe in 2007 you'd have a point... but it's not. Sponge can enjoy trying to "get me". I'll enjoy posting up his hilarious threats every time we make him surrender to us.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Penkala

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1300205278' post='2665593']
You don't know me very well. I've collected at 1k infra with well over $100 million before.
[/quote]

That's kind of stupid, why are you squandering my investments?

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1300178513' post='2665439']
Just to clear up that misconception, you lost around [i]170 [/i]nations. We lost about 60 (40 maybe), but don't recruit really during war. Be careful not to actually buy into your own propaganda.[/quote]
GOONS [i][b]gained[/b][/i] about 90.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1300205663' post='2665596']
That's kind of stupid, why are you squandering my investments?
[/quote]

I wasn't in CSN at the time, and I was saving up for something.

[Buds The Man]

[quote]Maybe in 2007 you'd have a point... but it's not. Sponge can enjoy trying to "get me". I'll enjoy posting up his hilarious threats every time we make him surrender to us. [/quote]

nature of life here on bob, tables turn so unless your planning on retireing soon, ill call bs on this one. I watched Xiph wait for an extraordinary amount of time to get someone and guess what he did. But hey you live in a world that your invulnerable I look forward to seeing you eat those words. Nothing personal mind you just something to look forward too.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Buds The Man

[Goldie]

I wish I had 10 more nations like Penkala's to unleash amongst the kinder

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1300205278' post='2665593']
You don't know me very well. I've collected at 1k infra with well over $100 million before.
[/quote]
You don't know me very well if you think I'll be convinced that 100M is sufficient warchest for a tech-buying nation.

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1300207619' post='2665610']
I wish I had 10 more nations like Penkala's to unleash amongst the kinder
[/quote]
I wish he would grow a bit.

[Monster]

[quote name='Sir Humphrey' timestamp='1300191544' post='2665513']
I'm not exactly sure what point you are arguing, but I don't see how anything that you have said contradicts the point of my post (that is, that NPO's independent entry into the PB/NpO war would not have assisted Polar's side). (Should the bolded read NpO? That might solve part of my confusion)

More broadly (unrelated to my previous post), Doomhouse's characterisation of its DoW as "preemptive" is incorrect. "Preemptive" suggests that there was a specific identifiable and immediate threat that Doomhouse was preempting. On the contrary, the Doomhouse DoW [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97693"]asserts[/url] that NpO and its allies were protecting NPO from entering the war, suggesting that there was no immediate threat. It seems that a better characterisation of the DoW is that it represents a "preventative" war, designed to prevent the future threat of a stronger NPO and address the balance of power. This is still purely based on Doomhouse's assumptions regarding NPO's actual intentions, but it seems a better description of its public justification for the war (though I still prefer FAN's honesty in admitting that it hit NPO simply because it wanted to).
[/quote]

It would have helped Polar's side if let's say they go in after all the swing alliances go in(I guess the time would be after all the AZTEC alliance's chained in(like NoR, DT,AB, etc.) , they could at least inflict damage on someone with an attack before getting countered if they had gone with a similar upper tier pm strategy and then entered. Because NPO had not entered they didn't do any damage to anyone on VE's side. It was funny since they pre-empted the pre-empt by sitting back, TPF beefing up militarily, and moving people to PM days in advance causing the pre-empt to actually happen. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy because until they started doing that, preemption was not definite.

No, it doesn't assert that at all. Basically, everyone on one end of the spectrum has taken advantage of what it supposedly asserts and it's helped you that Archon hasn't been around(he completely disappeared after the DoW) to clarify, but the point was that NPO/NPO allies were being held off. It does not say "NPO was not going to enter at all." I know this because I knew what his intent was when he wrote it because he was referring to the line "NPO cannot come out now. They must be protected," that would be leaked later on. I've clarified his perspective on the war and I've had to address this a million times.

[quote][19:53] <Archon`away> I think NPO/NSO/TPF will probaby try to draw us out.
[19:54] <Archon`away> They have looked at this entire war the same way as I am - an elaborate dance between Doomhouse and Pacific.
[/quote]

I've had to show this a million times but this is how he saw the war.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[Penguin]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1300181854' post='2665453']
Penguin, I'm obviously never happy.

But yea, I had you guys pinned in my head at 380ish at the start up for some reason, which is where the difference lie. Also, original point stands, but doesn't matter since like I said, all water under the bridge at this point.
[/quote]
Someone built a dam under the bridge into my nation. Demolition crews estimate it will take at least a month before the fish can flow back in.

[Kilkenny]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300220776' post='2665753']
It would have helped Polar's side if let's say they go in after all the swing alliances go in(I guess the time would be after all the AZTEC alliance's chained in(like NoR, DT,AB, etc.) , they could at least inflict damage on someone with an attack before getting countered if they had gone with a similar upper tier pm strategy and then entered. Because NPO had not entered they didn't do any damage to anyone on VE's side. It was funny since they pre-empted the pre-empt by sitting back, TPF beefing up militarily, and moving people to PM days in advance causing the pre-empt to actually happen. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy because until they started doing that, preemption was not definite.

No, it doesn't assert that at all. Basically, everyone on one end of the spectrum has taken advantage of what it supposedly asserts and it's helped you that Archon hasn't been around(he completely disappeared after the DoW) to clarify, but the point was that NPO/NPO allies were being held off. It does not say "NPO was not going to enter at all." I know this because I knew what his intent was when he wrote it because he was referring to the line "NPO cannot come out now. They must be protected," that would be leaked later on. I've clarified his perspective on the war and I've had to address this a million times.



I've had to show this a million times but this is how he saw the war.
[/quote]


TPF's beefing up and going into PM was in response to the rumor that we were going to be attacked in an effort to draw NPO into the fray. It seems we were mistaken in that it was NPO who was hit, not us. The fact doesn't change that the entire war was run in a way to draw NPO into the war. NPO attempted to stay out of it, to no avail. Funny that Archon's view of the war was the same as TOP's when they pre-empted MK in Bi-Polar...something Archon & Co were very critical of TOP for. Funny, they don't seem to have an issue using it, just having it used on them.

[Kyaris]

[quote name='O-Dog' timestamp='1300128592' post='2664744']
Nope, vindictive will do. And what vengence does [i]this[/i] GOONS seek?
[/quote]

It's spelled vengeance. I'm but a pawn, I have no vengeance to seek. I just kill what I'm told to kill.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Kyaris' timestamp='1300224869' post='2665814']
It's spelled vengeance. I'm but a pawn, I have no vengeance to seek. I just kill what I'm told to kill.
[/quote]

Mindless pawns in Doomhouse? Why I... I never imagined such a thing could be true.

[Kyaris]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1300226914' post='2665836']
Mindless pawns in Doomhouse? Why I... I never imagined such a thing could be true.
[/quote]

Haha, I'm hardly mindless, friend. Hardly.

[foxfire99]

[quote name='Penguin' timestamp='1300221624' post='2665764']
Someone built a dam under the bridge into my nation. Demolition crews estimate it will take at least a month before the fish can flow back in.
[/quote]

What kind of demolition crews do you employ? Mine have never taken more than an hour. Although people do try to stand very far away...

[Choson]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1300226914' post='2665836']
Mindless pawns in Doomhouse? Why I... I never imagined such a thing could be true.
[/quote]
At least we're not quitters!

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Kyaris' timestamp='1300227795' post='2665854']
Haha, I'm hardly mindless, friend. Hardly.
[/quote]

Even being a "brilliant pawn" isn't saying much.

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1300229566' post='2665873']
At least we're not quitters!
[/quote]

Meaning?

[hizzy]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1300205278' post='2665593']
You don't know me very well. I've collected at 1k infra with well over $100 million before.



If by 'attacking little nations' you mean 'attacks the most challenging, often nuclear, nations in range', then yes, that's what I do.

Of course, you'd know that if you bothered to do anything other than look at my NS. Just look at my last 3 wars for a good example of the wars I fight. 3 targets, 2 of them active and fighting back, one of them that I'm just helping keep at war. 1 of them has nukes (and an SDI!) and tons of money, plus 90% spy odds on me. I don't have an SDI.

Does that look like I'm "picking on the little guys to you"?



Once again.. these aren't "children". I'm attacking the targets that are causing VE the most trouble.



I highly disagree. If you mean costing NpO hundreds of millions in war aid (Wasdrogan required $35 + million alone while fighting me) and saving VE hundreds of million in war and rebuilding aid is "little more impact ... than an average nation at that size [can do]", then, simply put, you're wrong.

In the overall outcome of the war, I'm unimportant because of how small my nation is. But when compared to an "average nation" at my strength I'm dozens of times more effective and efficient. When I can take someone from a $41m warchest to nothing in 3 days (and then she needed aided...), I'm having a lot more impact than what one of our "average nations" can do.

Basically... if you're really saying that I'm not more effective than an average member at my NS, you're kind of an idiot. If we're talking about on the overall war effort, I still do more to help it than an average member, but I still don't do a whole lot. The main difference is in how I can affect aid flow and aid slot usage, not preventing peace mode, by the way. I am reducing it significantly for VE and increasing it significantly for NpO. Forcing NpO to send a lot more aid to 5k NS nations drains their warchests and prevents the aid from getting to those who can use it to damage our higher NS nations.



Maybe in 2007 you'd have a point... but it's not. Sponge can enjoy trying to "get me". I'll enjoy posting up his hilarious threats every time we make him surrender to us.
[/quote]

As a fellow small nation with big guns I gotta call !@#$%^&* on everything. It seems like you're actually trying to justify your own existence but there's no way you can possibly believe that nonsense. I'm at 10K NS and I have no allusions to the damage I'm causing, so I don't know what exactly you think you're doing at 4K.

Being that small in an alliance war is just pointless. Maybe if you went rogue on an alliance that wasn't at war it would have more of an impact simply because the effects would be amplified ("hey look, a whole alliance can't stop 1 guy!")... but even then it's more of a morale issue. Take me vs. GOONS (or TGE or CSN)... each of those 3 issues had different effects on the alliances; GOONS had fun with it, their people got war experience and morale was unaffected. TGE cried a !@#$ load, nobody fought back, and then they disbanded. CSN tried fighting back, then tried sanctioning, and then just gave up (unless they want to sanction me on a couple more colours, whatever). In any case you can't have any misconception of the damage you're causing; I'm not going to cripple CSN single-handedly, but at the end of the day I will nuke enough of their tech, and if a few of their members cry and/or leave CSN then that's a bonus.

Don't take it too personally, but your 4K NS and non-existent political clout had absolutely no bearing on the war against NpO.

[Penguin]

[quote name='foxfire99' timestamp='1300228660' post='2665863']
What kind of demolition crews do you employ? Mine have never taken more than an hour. Although people do try to stand very far away...
[/quote]
The structural integrity of the dam is pretty weak, but the process of obtaining the necessary permits and environmental impact studies has proven to be more difficult than I imagined. My advisers tell me that a hasty demolition without taking these precautions may lead to longer lasting problems for my nation. Rest assured, we have our best and brightest trying to get water flowing back under the bridge as we speak.

[Penkala]

[quote name='hizzy' timestamp='1300231801' post='2665907']
Don't take it too personally, but your 4K NS and non-existent political clout had absolutely no bearing on the war against NpO.
[/quote]

You do realize that's literally what I said, right?

...

Like I said, I'm not debating my effect on the war as a whole, though I [i]do[/i] have much more of an impact than a similar 4k NS nation without an MP or experience. And that I WILL debate. I do TONS more damage than an average 4k NS nation. That being said, in a single of war, Bob Janova's nukes will do just as much damage to Polaris as my entire participation in the war did.

Again, used properly at my NS, nukes give me a massive advantage and do allow me to cause headaches for an alliance. I have no illusions about changing the outcomes of wars, though.

[quote]CSN tried fighting back, then tried sanctioning, and then just gave up (unless they want to sanction me on a couple more colours, whatever). In any case you can't have any misconception of the damage you're causing; I'm not going to cripple CSN single-handedly, but at the end of the day I will nuke enough of their tech, and if a few of their members cry and/or leave CSN then that's a bonus.[/quote]

Yeah, I noticed these wars too. You're lucky your old home is also my old home, and that I still have a soft spot for NV, otherwise I'd return the favor at some point in the future.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Penkala

[mmansfield68]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1300189408' post='2665493']
What?! His nation is 600 NS. It's quite rational to believe that he would sell tech and that I might buy it.

Seriously, what are you going on about?[/quote]
Penkala, you're just a miserable little antagonist. This is a surrender thread, and you're rubbing it in the noses of the surrenderees.

There will be a bill for this sort of behavior. There always is.

You did the same thing in the DT thread where we were negotiating our surrender.

There will be a bill, and you will pay it.

There is always a bill.

[Penkala]

[quote name='mmansfield68' timestamp='1300237568' post='2665979']
Penkala, you're just a miserable little antagonist. This is a surrender thread, and you're rubbing it in the noses of the surrenderees.

There will be a bill for this sort of behavior. There always is.
[/quote]

I'm simply offering a helping hand to Sponge. I know that, in the wake of their crushing defeat, a few bucks will go a long way toward repairing their nations. So I'm offering them some assistance. They can take my help or leave it, but stop bashing me for extending a hand of friendship and offering aid, even when I wouldn't normally purchase technology and would rather use the cash to rebuild. I'm trying to help, here. It's not my fault that they're too proud to accept it.

[quote]
You did the same thing in the DT thread where we were negotiating our surrender.
[/quote]

I helped DT more than you can possibly imagine and was one of the biggest supporters of reps reductions. Go ask CSN yourself. While your allies in NoR actually made things worse, *I* helped. So please, spare me.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Penkala

[mmansfield68]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1300238939' post='2666006']
I'm simply offering a helping hand to Sponge.[/quote]
Sponge has forgotten more about this game than you will ever know. Please drop the Samaratin mask - it couldn't look more obvious if it had chin-straps.


[quote] I know that, in the wake of their crushing defeat, a few bucks will go a long way toward repairing their nations. So I'm offering them some assistance. They can take my help or leave it, but stop bashing me for extending a hand of friendship and offering aid from even when I wouldn't normally purchase technology and would rather use the cash to rebuild. I'm trying to help, here. It's not my fault that they're too proud to accept it.[/quote]
I'm sure that if your generous offerings are deemed acceptable, they'll get up with you. I have a sneeking suspicion that the NpO, Electron Sponge and his compadres might have a rebuilding plan that does not include YOU.

[quote]I helped DT more than you can possibly imagine and was one of the biggest supporters of reps reductions. Go ask CSN yourself. While your allies in NoR actually made things worse, *I* helped. So please, spare me.
[/quote]
With friends like you, who needs enemas?

[Sir Humphrey]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300220776' post='2665753']
It would have helped Polar's side if let's say they go in after all the swing alliances go in(I guess the time would be after all the AZTEC alliance's chained in(like NoR, DT,AB, etc.) , they could at least inflict damage on someone with an attack before getting countered if they had gone with a similar upper tier pm strategy and then entered. Because NPO had not entered they didn't do any damage to anyone on VE's side. It was funny since they pre-empted the pre-empt by sitting back, TPF beefing up militarily, and moving people to PM days in advance causing the pre-empt to actually happen. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy because until they started doing that, preemption was not definite.[/quote]
I disagree that it would have made a difference. Any damage in the window between NPO entering and being countered would not have altered the result, some of the swing alliances on NpO's side might still have switched sides to attack NPO, and NPO would likely have been countered by a larger group of alliances entering due to treaty chains (rather than only those alliances in your coalition that ended up attacking NPO). Nonetheless, the point is moot given that it is purely hypothetical and cannot be proven.

[quote]No, it doesn't assert that at all. Basically, everyone on one end of the spectrum has taken advantage of what it supposedly asserts and it's helped you that Archon hasn't been around(he completely disappeared after the DoW) to clarify, but the point was that NPO/NPO allies were being held off. It does not say "NPO was not going to enter at all." I know this because I knew what his intent was when he wrote it because he was referring to the line "NPO cannot come out now. They must be protected," that would be leaked later on. I've clarified his perspective on the war and I've had to address this a million times.[/quote]
I referred to the DoW because I presumed that was the official explanation for why you, well, declared war. The subsequent explanation still does not support the characterisation of the Doomhouse/NPO war as "preemptive". It still depends purely on Doomhouse's [i]assumptions[/i] regarding NPO's actual intentions with regard to the PB/NpO war, i.e. NPO's lack of action was entirely consistent with an intention not to enter the war. As for TPF beefing up, Kilkenny provided a perfectly rational explanation above, and attacking one alliance on the basis of the actions of its ally is hardly preemption (notwithstanding your public contempt for following treaty chains).

Ultimately, if the Doomhouse attack was preemptive, then you are left with no reason to be at war with NPO now that NpO has exited. The fact that you are still at war suggests that your intention is to neutralise NPO as a potential future threat (again, based purely on your assumptions regarding its intentions). That is preventative, not preemptive.