Response to Rebel Virginia's False Accusations

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='janax' timestamp='1295714305' post='2592024]
If there ever comes a day when Pandora's Box is truly acting like tC and their ilk, there will be a new Karma. That's how the world works.
[/quote]

This looks a lot like noCB to me. Who's to say there isn't one already forming?

Edited January 22, 2011 by Omniscient1

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1295710892' post='2591944']
[color="#FF0000"]You can go to your war-screens and indeed confirm that this CB is, as I have stated, "good enough".[/color]
[/quote]

any CB is good enough depending on the alliance. you seem to think that there won't be issues in the long run for VE though. sure you have some blind fools out there, but not everyone is blind. This CB is not good enough and all those defending Polaris or on Polaris's side has stated as such.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295723253' post='2592191']
any CB is good enough depending on the alliance. you seem to think that there won't be issues in the long run for VE though. sure you have some blind fools out there, but not everyone is blind. This CB is not good enough and all those defending Polaris or on Polaris's side has stated as such.
[/quote]

It's the deceitful, "two-faced" CB that isn't good enough.

If he really had any integrity, he would have called it as it was. And that would have been good enough. Still would have sucked for Polaris being on the end they're on, but it would have been good enough.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1295723466' post='2592199']
It's the deceitful, "two-faced" CB that isn't good enough.

If he really had any integrity, he would have called it as it was. And that would have been good enough. Still would have sucked for Polaris being on the end they're on, but it would have been good enough.
[/quote]

Impero has no honor, integrity, or any thing like that. we have seen how Impero acts before. also, to me it is not just the CB that is not good enough, VE in and of itself has become a worthless alliance. I hope all those allied to VE that are allied to Polaris realize that VE manufactured a CB to hit your ally, Polaris. hoping to see some treaties be dropping since it appears that Impero is more than willing to lie to his so-called "allies".

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='leprecon' timestamp='1295700111' post='2591766']
The ones who disagree with me are mentally numb moronic simpleton cowardly clowns. You are quite a humble man, you who prefers mentally stimulating challenges which can be solved using your superior argumentative skills and intellect. Maybe we too can learn how to defeat our opponents in debate by being overly insulting! We should all aspire to be like Rebel Virginia, constantly striving to improve ourselves in such a manner.



Very productive indeed.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Finally, someone in VE and its associated alliances who understands the greatness that is Rebel Virginia. There may be hope, for you at least anyway.[/color]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1295697007' post='2591736']
You realize you're like TV to us, right?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]One man's television is another man's hero.[/color]

[iamthey]

[quote name='janax' timestamp='1295714305' post='2592024']
We are tied to 2 members of the "world police 2.0". Umbrella, one of our oldest allys and one who have put their own wishes and their alliance on the line to back us up, even when they didn't agree with what was going on. As long as I am Emperor, we will go to hell and back for them. The other is VE, who have been nothing but friends to us. Whether or not we agree with what has happened is something we'll deal with our allies about. Privately.

I will admit it's a huge bonus that NpO was the one to mess up. While I never agreed with what TOP and IRON and friends did in their preemptive strike, switching sides and stabbing them in the back was worse. I'm a petty person, and I am enjoying watching them pay.[/quote]

Not referring to umbrella, I really don't have much criticism for them. In either case though, I guess I just thought argent was the sort of alliance that put its principles above the personalities involve. What you are telling me is, 'maybe VE's CB is questionable, but I like them, and I sure as hell don't like their enemy so I'll give them a pass'. Simply put if it were NPO, (as in fact I guess it has been in the past) I imagine the message would be different.


[quote]"unoffensive allliance"? Polar? Really?

If there ever comes a day when Pandora's Box is truly acting like tC and their ilk, there will be a new Karma. That's how the world works.
[/quote]

Polar wronged IRON and TOP yes; I'll conceded it is possible that the entire war was lost [i]because[/i] of polar's stunt in that conflict. That being said, I see no line item in VE's DoW in reference to polar's crime against TOP, and supposedly that is not what this war is about. The claim is that Polar [i]condoned[/i] spying against VE. In actuality however it was a begrudged and bored lennox, later with an accomplice, impero, that approached polar, induced them to spy and offered them the impero supplied pictures. Polar wasn't doing anything to threaten VE, and likely would never have done anything to threaten anyone, much less spy on VE. I'm sure you have a different view given your friends and your position in the world, but from where I stand this entire affair is really nothing more than a pretense to hobble any viable alternative to PB.

[William Blake]

Sad to see you being of that opinion, Janax. Seems like a bit of a shift from how those in Argent felt back when they formed, you know, when you were worried about being rolled for no reason by the powers that be.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1295687993' post='2591629']
We landed ourselves in this position? Please.
[/quote]

Yes you did, leaving aside the wider issues, this particular incident never could have happened without Polar gov first aiming a spy at VE. That key starting point is all on you, without it there would be no war now.

[quote]Our leadership did not like PB, nor did it like VE. Well, so what? In a universe where people complain about treaties and people kissing each others asses that is not a vice, it is a virtue. At least provided we did not try to unjustly wage a war of aggression against either PB or VE. Which we didn't. So on that count, you are full of !@#$.[/quote]

I realize this is a distinction lost on many here on bob, but there is in fact a state of being between the two extremes of Friend and Enemy. There are even positions between Friend and Treaty Partner. You don't like us? Cool, but for the love of god, engage in some basic diplomacy to aim for the middle ground for your own survival.

Have you noticed how a significant number of the people condemning us for how this war started are also adding variations on "but you know what? I hate polar more, so happy nuking!"

[quote]As for our allies, we don't attempt to control them because we are not NPO under Moo or Xiphosis. So you cannot hold Polar accountable for their actions, at least unless you are willing to be purposely illogical. So on that count as well, you are full of !@#$.[/quote]

There is a difference between "controlling" your allies and telling them to knock off stupid !@#$. When your own smaller allies are throwing around your weight when picking fights, you do get a say in who they can pick a fight with.

[quote]Also you made a reference to UPN "building a coalition" in one of your posts. I laughed because your point revealed the depth of your ignorance. "Worst Coalition Ever" was organized by the likes of Schattenman and MrWhite in regard to an issue unrelated to UPN drama. Once they found out about UPN's problems, however, they tried to incorporate them into their greater cause, but Polar helped convince UPN not to get sucked in. So on that count, you are also full of !@#$.[/quote]

I don't think anybody has ever disputed that the WCE earned its name and was never going to go anywhere. The point from that that relates here is success (or likelyhood of) is not the measuring stick, the fact that it was tried at all has relevance. You sent a spy and got nailed for it, the fact that you failed to get away with it does not make you any less guilty.

EDIT:

[quote]I want to go to bed, but people aren't posting. So instead of triple posting, I'll just incorporate my final thoughts in here:

Dajobo never called you the enemy. He actually specifically said we had no issues with you, but that you seemed to have issues with us.

So, basically, stop making !@#$ up.[/quote]

Right back at you, stop making !@#$ up. We're not the enemy but hes cool pointing a spy at us? You know what I'd do if somebody appraoched me about spying on one of my friends? I'd !@#$@#$ well warn them, not suggest they go after them.

So yea, stop making !@#$ up. Your entire alliance is backpedaling as hard as it can because we caught you with your hand in the cookie jar.

[quote]
Ragnarok talked to Mergerberger, our Minister of Foregin Affairs. Mergerberger did not approach VE, however, because he and the government on at the time did not know Dajobo's side of the story, as Dajobo had not shared the information's existence because he thought it was fake and a waste of time. so the government on at the time rightly decided to wait for Dajobo to get on IRC and represent his case in person, which Dajobo did. Unfortunately, Impero had already made up his mind and within several hours we were getting attacked in an unjustified war of aggression.
[/quote]

Brilliant talk to somebody other than the people who might roll you for getting spied on!

Also, I see still going with the "I thought it was fake" defense.

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1295710884' post='2591943']
It may have been addressed elsewhere, and if so I apologize, but has an explanation for Impero waiving Lennox's entrance into VE on the 12th, prior to the conversations with Dajabo, been provided? He applied and was passed through the academy in 4 minutes.

Just curious.
[/quote]

Since you answered your own question

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1295711260' post='2591951']
Which implies that Impero was aware of who Lennox was before he applied to VE.
[/quote]

You are making a major leap between knowing who he was and knowing why he returned. Those are two different pieces of information. The timeline RV is trying to push is that the entire thing was a setup by VE, this is not the case, Lennox came to us after being sent by polar to spy on us. Crime already done. Our sting was not to trick polar into spying on us, they'd already tried at that point, our sting was to get polar to give us proof that they'd spied on us. Which they did.

[Fallen Fool]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1295729553' post='2592292']I realize this is a distinction lost on many here on bob, but there is in fact a state of being between the two extremes of Friend and Enemy. There are even positions between Friend and Treaty Partner. You don't like us? Cool, but for the love of god, engage in some basic diplomacy to aim for the middle ground for your own survival.[/quote]Ignoring the fact that a particularly handsome individual from Polar showed up at your forums over a month ago, let me just reiterate that a lack of "basic diplomacy" is not a credible casus belli.

[quote]Have you noticed how a significant number of the people condemning us for how this war started are also adding variations on "but you know what? I hate polar more, so happy nuking!"[/quote]Most of those people are still obsessed with BiPolar, not with any other act we've committed in the year since, so trying to paint us as arrogantly aggressive is misleading and disingenuous.

[quote]There is a difference between "controlling" your allies and telling them to knock off stupid !@#$. When your own smaller allies are throwing around your weight when picking fights, you do get a say in who they can pick a fight with.[/quote]Throwing our weight around? Like when? Was it when our allies said mean things and hurt your feelings? Were we supposed to drop them then to soothe your collective ego?

[quote]I don't think anybody has ever disputed that the WCE earned its name and was never going to go anywhere. The point from that that relates here is success (or likelyhood of) is not the measuring stick, the fact that it was tried at all has relevance. You sent a spy and got nailed for it, the fact that you failed to get away with it does not make you any less guilty.[/quote]"WCE" was killed, in large part, by Polar's efforts. That's clear evidence that not only did we not condone aggressive acts, but we actively worked against them.

And no, we did not send a spy to VE.

[quote]Right back at you, stop making !@#$ up. We're not the enemy but hes cool pointing a spy at us? You know what I'd do if somebody appraoched me about spying on one of my friends? I'd !@#$@#$ well warn them, not suggest they go after them.

So yea, stop making !@#$ up. Your entire alliance is backpedaling as hard as it can because we caught you with your hand in the cookie jar.[/quote]We've had the same stated position since the get go, which means we're not backpedaling from anything.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1295661490' post='2590234']
[ 17:57:20 ] (Xiphosis[GOD]) how well do you know this guy?
[ 17:57:38 ] (Xiphosis[GOD]) because I know some [like Schatt] would [censored] their pants if they could get you to believe something like this
[ 17:57:55 ] (Impero[VE]) rather well[/quote]

And here I was beginning to think you guys were serious when you say I'm insignificant.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1295732704' post='2592365']
Ignoring the fact that a particularly handsome individual from Polar showed up at your forums over a month ago, let me just reiterate that a lack of "basic diplomacy" is not a credible casus belli.
[/quote]

Nobody ever claimed that, but being friendly, or even cordial, can be the difference in how disputes get resolved. Someone you are friendly with will be more inclined to hear explanations and believe excuses. Someone you have a crappy relationship will on the other hand not be inclined to believe you.

[quote]Most of those people are still obsessed with BiPolar, not with any other act we've committed in the year since, so trying to paint us as arrogantly aggressive is misleading and disingenuous.[/quote]

Your response is misleading and disingenuous, I never even suggested why people don't like you, I merely pointed out that you are so unpopular world wide that even when people stand there telling us our CB is crap, they are still happy that its [i]you[/i] we went after.

[quote]
Throwing our weight around? Like when? Was it when our allies said mean things and hurt your feelings? Were we supposed to drop them then to soothe your collective ego? [/quote]

Others (who were actually there when it happened) have already cited specific examples, if you are going to be dense just to push an agenda that's fine, but outright ignoring evidence is a little silly. Also, for the black and white crowd you seem to be a card carrying member of, there is a difference between 'soothing egos' as you so diplomatically put it and simply making sure you don't needlessly antagonize people.

[quote]"WCE" was killed, in large part, by Polar's efforts. That's clear evidence that not only did we not condone aggressive acts, but we actively worked against them.[/quote]

It appears my point sailed clear over your head, never mind.
[quote]
And no, we did not send a spy to VE.[/quote]

Yes, you did.

[quote]20:34 Dajobo|NpO| pick someone worth spying on
20:35 Chancy Give me suggestions
20:36 Dajobo|NpO| VE or MK are the two who are heavily involved in world politics[/quote]


[quote]
We've had the same stated position since the get go, which means we're not backpedaling from anything.
[/quote]

That you didn't spy, that he thought the screen shots were fake, or that he was just kidding, or that the whole thing was a setup by VE? There are so many version of your position out there its hard to keep track.

[janax]

[quote name='William Blake' timestamp='1295729009' post='2592284']
Sad to see you being of that opinion, Janax. Seems like a bit of a shift from how those in Argent felt back when they formed, you know, when you were worried about being rolled for no reason by the powers that be.
[/quote]

Look back over the last year, and find me "no reason" from Polar...and I will agree with you.

[Aurion]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1295734622' post='2592432']
And here I was beginning to think you guys were serious when you say I'm insignificant.
[/quote]

Is he wrong?

[Solaris]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1295732704' post='2592365']
Ignoring the fact that a particularly handsome individual from Polar showed up at your forums over a month ago, let me just reiterate that a lack of "basic diplomacy" is not a credible casus belli.[/quote]
Must object.

Was not handsome.

[Geoffron X]

So, this changes... nothing.

[Joe Izuzu]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1295738655' post='2592532']
....That you didn't spy, that he thought the screen shots were fake, or that he was just kidding, or that the whole thing was a setup by VE? There are so many version of your position out there its hard to keep track....
[/quote]


Actually all four of those assertions are correct and none of them are mutually contradictory. Dajobo didn't spy, although he did receive info from Lennox, the info that Impero intentionally gave to Lennox to pass on to Dajobo. As VE and Co. was so adamant about in Karma, receiving information does not constitute spying. Moreover, Dajobo almost immediately came to you with the purloined information, but you didn't want to listen, having gotten the [s]"evidence"[/s] relatively innocuous logs from your mole. Furthermore, Dajobo NEVER sent Lennox on you, Lennox and Impero chose you themselves, as per their plan. And Dajobo, by his own admission in the logs you posted, WAS only joking around with Lennox. Finally, as evidenced by the info posted by RV and subsequently (unintentionally?) confirmed by Impero, the whole thing WAS a setup, which everyone knows but which you and your allies still refuse to admit.

The most relevant excerpt from the logs posted in your DOW:

21:14 Chancy Am I supposed to be taking screenshots of whatever the govt. says, or just everything
21:14 Chancy to make them angry
21:14 Dajobo|NpO| [b]what ever floats your boat[/b]
21:15 Dajobo|NpO| [b]I'm not part of this just lolling with you[/b]

Also, you never answered the question posed by Ivan. How come the date stamp on the logs of Impero's conversation with Lennox (the 12th) apparently predates the logs posted in your DOW?

[William Blake]

[quote name='janax' timestamp='1295739253' post='2592556']
Look back over the last year, and find me "no reason" from Polar...and I will agree with you.
[/quote]
We are allegedly being attacked for a recent event, not something that happened a year ago. Maybe MHA thought they had a "reason" to roll you back in the day too.

Edited January 23, 2011 by William Blake

[shahenshah]

meh, edit nvm, moddel.

Edited January 23, 2011 by shahenshah

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Joe Izuzu' timestamp='1295742698' post='2592627']
Actually all four of those assertions are correct and none of them are mutually contradictory. Dajobo didn't spy, although he did receive info from Lennox, the info that Impero intentionally gave to Lennox to pass on to Dajobo. As VE and Co. was so adamant about in Karma, receiving information does not constitute spying. Moreover, Dajobo almost immediately came to you with the purloined information, but you didn't want to listen, having gotten the [s]"evidence"[/s] relatively innocuous logs from your mole. Furthermore, Dajobo NEVER sent Lennox on you, Lennox and Impero chose you themselves, as per their plan. And Dajobo, by his own admission in the logs you posted, WAS only joking around with Lennox. Finally, as evidenced by the info posted by RV and subsequently (unintentionally?) confirmed by Impero, the whole thing WAS a setup, which everyone knows but which you and your allies still refuse to admit.
[/quote]

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. A senior member of government worked with a spy to the point of thinking up names and picking the alliance to spy on. Much like the drug dealer is a better catch than the drug user, the spymaster is a better catch than the spy.

As you seem completely incapable of making the distinction between passively accepting information and actively taking part in acquiring it (thats why daj asking for the rehost was pure gold) let me spell it out for you, "accepting information" was a crap CB in Karma for two reasons, the most important one, and the one that lost NPO the PR war for it was when Moo gave the infamous 'all alliances accept information' line. NPO being a subset off "all" Moo had just said that they wanted to kill OV for something they had done, you may recall the wonderfully leading question of how NPO could know OV had accepted information without also doing the same.

The other lesser reason is that there is a difference between accepting information passively that is handed to you and actively taking part in its gathering. I realize fully that nobody on your side wants to recognize the difference because its the closest thing to a defense of Daj's actions, but you just look silly trying since its pitifully transparent, and even if it wasn't Daj has already admitted he made mistakes. The only logical point of contention you have left is that our going to war was hasty and/or an over reaction. But nobody's tired to address that yet without covering the place with Grade A Cow Patties.

You continually try to dress this up as some master plan by VE to get you rolled but forget that none of this could have happened without Daj first sending us a spy, that was the crime, the setup was tricking Polar into handing us proof. No matter how many times you try to regurgitate the same lies it won't change that this all started with a chat between Lennox and Daj, which we knew nothing about until Lennox flipped on Polar. Polar made two mistakes, the sent us a spy in the first place, then they gave that spy proof he could use against them.

The 'material' posted by RV proves nothing, it is largely lies and misrepresentation, easily dis-proven at that, the fact that you belive them simply proves your ignorance, or that you are more interested in preaching from a political platform rather than anything related to the facts of the case.

Either way, it still changes nothing, no matter how much garbage is spewed out onto the OWF by Polar and its allies, the fact is we moved for an offense we felt warranted this response, and we are winning this war. No amount of spin can change those two facts.


[quote]The most relevant excerpt from the logs posted in your DOW:

21:14 Chancy Am I supposed to be taking screenshots of whatever the govt. says, or just everything
21:14 Chancy to make them angry
21:14 Dajobo|NpO| [b]what ever floats your boat[/b]
21:15 Dajobo|NpO| [b]I'm not part of this just lolling with you[/b][/quote]

And that was covered in in the DoW, its a feeble throwaway one liner in a CYA attempt, that we are not buying, since it was in the same conversation as him suggesting somebody go spy on us.

[quote]
Also, you never answered the question posed by Ivan. How come the date stamp on the logs of Impero's conversation with Lennox (the 12th) apparently predates the logs posted in your DOW?
[/quote]

I hadn't noticed, I'd guess timezones, IRC clients typically log in local time.

[D34th]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1295748534' post='2592731']
And that was covered in in the DoW, its a feeble throwaway one liner in a CYA attempt, that we are not buying, since it was in the same conversation as him suggesting somebody go spy on us.
[/quote]

Of course you just believe in what you want right? Typical.

[Heft]

I guess the fact that you worked with Lennox to set this up explains why you didn't feel like you were being used as a tool by him. Still feel that way, now that he's revealed your duplicity?

I await the Polaris declaration of war on VE for the espionage committed against their alliance.

[Ragashingo]

[quote]The 'material' posted by RV proves nothing, it is largely lies and misrepresentation, easily dis-proven at that, the fact that you belive them simply proves your ignorance, or that you are more interested in preaching from a political platform rather than anything related to the facts of the case.[/quote]

I'm sure y'all will get around to disproving RV real soon right? Because so far all VE and co have done is admit to and post logs confirming RV's story.

[quote]You continually try to dress this up as some master plan by VE to get you rolled but forget that none of this could have happened without Daj first sending us a spy, that was the crime, the setup was tricking Polar into handing us proof. No matter how many times you try to regurgitate the same lies it won't change that this all started with a chat between Lennox and Daj, which we knew nothing about until Lennox flipped on Polar. Polar made two mistakes, the sent us a spy in the first place, then they gave that spy proof he could use against them.[/quote]

Who started that fateful chat anyway? Who contacted who?

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1295748534' post='2592731']
And that was covered in in the DoW, its a feeble throwaway one liner in a CYA attempt, that we are not buying, since it was in the same conversation as him suggesting somebody go spy on us.
[/quote]
I can't wait til VE declares war on CoJ for [i]suggesting [/i]that applicants we reject join VE.

[DictatatorDan]

[quote]Not referring to umbrella, I really don't have much criticism for them. In either case though, I guess I just thought argent was the sort of alliance that put its principles above the personalities involve. What you are telling me is, 'maybe VE's CB is questionable, but I like them, and I sure as hell don't like their enemy so I'll give them a pass'. Simply put if it were NPO, (as in fact I guess it has been in the past) I imagine the message would be different. [/quote]

[color="#FF0000"]Actually if NPO were allied and rolling an alliance we didn't like, on a solid, but imperfect CB given, I would give you guys a pass too. However the roles are completely reversed if you were attacking an ally. The main extropolation from most of CN history, is that a CB is never considered suffiecent or valid by the opposing side. When it comes to Argent and her allies, much like Polar and her allies, it always is, and will always be, bro's before angle-headed gardening implements.[/color]





[quote]Polar wronged IRON and TOP yes; I'll conceded it is possible that the entire war was lost [i]because[/i] of polar's stunt in that conflict. That being said, I see no line item in VE's DoW in reference to polar's crime against TOP, and supposedly that is not what this war is about. The claim is that Polar [i]condoned[/i] spying against VE. In actuality however it was a begrudged and bored lennox, later with an accomplice, impero, that approached polar, induced them to spy and offered them the impero supplied pictures. Polar wasn't doing anything to threaten VE, and likely would never have done anything to threaten anyone, much less spy on VE. I'm sure you have a different view given your friends and your position in the world, but from where I stand this entire affair is really nothing more than a pretense to hobble any viable alternative to PB.[/quote]
[color="#FF0000"]
It is important to concede that the trap laid for Dajobo and it's outcome was not the sole reason for VE's declaration. Just encouraging Lennox to spy on VE was enough for them to roll tanks. It was only at the encouraging of Xiphosis, that more evidence was gathered.

Another thing is, that even though Polar may not be getting rolled on principle alone, the end result is still the same. We all get to satiate our baser and juvenile needs. We would all be more compelled to care if it was someone other than Polar, like for instance NPO, who has existed in it's own turtle shell for over a year now.[/color]

[Bill Wallace]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1295752208' post='2592807']
I can't wait til VE declares war on CoJ...[/quote]

You have to admit, it would be a lot of fun. Watching you go bananas in the DoW thread, yeah that would be something.