Response to Rebel Virginia's False Accusations

[President Obama]

[quote name='PMoses' timestamp='1295672607' post='2590902']But please do run along, and pat yourself on the back for your alliance's supposedly defending polar. When in reality you helped them get rolled. Honestly I don't believe for one second GoD defended Polar and MK or their cronies listened to you. Archon is at least known for one thing, and thats making his own decisions, Not taking orders from a non-meaningful alliance.
[/quote]
Umm, GOD has been pretty actively trying to protect NpO from coming into conflict with PB these last few months. It's gone public a few times as well.

[Rebel Virginia]

[color="#0000FF"]Nothing to say to me, Xiphypoo? Unsurprising that someone like you would flee in the face of my superior arguments and intellect. Shall I go ahead and claim victory now?[/color]

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1295668638' post='2590670']
Everyone else is lockstep in showing Xiph hate.
[/quote]

"Everyone" as in 2 or 3 guys in this thread? The horror, the horror.

[Midkn1ght]

[quote name='PMoses' timestamp='1295672607' post='2590902']
When in reality you helped them get rolled. Honestly I don't believe for one second GoD defended Polar and MK or their cronies listened to you.
[/quote]
Did you miss the posts from higher up in Polar in this very thread that flat out say how much interference we've run lately? Or have you missed the last several months in fairly regular occurence, where folks where making fun of us nonstop for singing Polar's praises to everyone?

[D34th]

[quote name='Midkn1ght' timestamp='1295672093' post='2590887']
You can ask anyone, I was screaming my head off that the whole thing was bull... right up until I got to the part where he complained that he couldn't see the screens, and he needed them reupped, then started discussing them. We might of been able to stave this off without that part. That right there damned him, and was a stupid, stupid mistake to make, when the person on the other ends wants your head. To paraphrase something I recently said to NPO, "You all have a price on your heads, for the love of god, tell your allies to stop making treaties that do nothing but increase the bounty"
[/quote]

Read the post above of yours for the explanation for why Dajobo asked the images to be re-upped and remember that Lennox didn't spied, the screenshots where given to him by Impero.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1295672253' post='2590891']
For the sake of brevity, I will respond to literally every one of your points Dochar. But I don't think I have the energy reserves to keep it up all thread, because you are a master of word vomit, so I apologize in advance:[/quote]

awww how sweet. i love how people who have little to say attempt to use ad hominems to attempt to somehow refute what i say. it is soooooo cute.

[quote]PB didn't 'ally MK' PB was already allied to MK when it formed. They put a bloc on top of it but the ties were already there. And while they do dislike Polaris, Pacifica is a lot higher on their govs hitlist - just a fact. RoK did defend Polaris, this much is true, but it was only after Kait and Hoo kicked up a big fuss. I'm not saying the communication wasn't there - but RoK wasn't putting in the boots-on-ground work to keep people off of Polar's back, non-allies were. That's what I find sad and evidence of weak relations.[/quote]

iirc- MK dropped all their treaties around that time. as for RoK- i would say that only Polaris and RoK know what the communication level was. but fact is, according to RoK- Hoo had no bearing on their decision to defend Polaris. so unless you are trying to state that an ally of yours is lying or somehow just puppets of a person now in Polaris...

[quote]And no, actually. I don't mean Polaris dropping allies because PB said so. I actually said Polaris should drop allies who abuse their trust, and firepower, to try and extort blocs and allies of blocs that wish them ill. Not only does it make sense, it makes sense! Polar gets to chuck some leeches, and PB gets confirmation that all the crap those little micros have been throwing at them wasn't endorsed by Polar privately.[/quote]

well, to you they are leeches. To Polaris they are allies. amazing the difference in viewpoint someone can have. also, we have seen how your so-called allies in VE treat other alliances (\m/ anyone) as well as their own allies (RoK anyone). so according to your philosophy, you and other VE allies should be dropping VE instead of [i]actually[/i] being used as meatshields....

[quote]Polar has not had sovereignty in quite some time. They have been slaves to the agendas of people who cling to their underbelly, and too soft and cowardly to pry them off and be the alliance they actually can be.[/quote]

i would say most of their actions prove otherwise. man i wish i could remember some of the stuff spewed by your side about Polaris when they allied Legion... but i think it was more along the lines of Polaris not caring about their allies or using their allies or some such. now, you are attempting to turn that propaganda around... which is it? either Polaris is the puppetmaster or the puppet. it would be rather difficult to be both.

[quote]Because a lot of innocent people and alliances die for them if they don't. It shows a pretty casual disregard for your own well being and that of your allies if you don't. I am not the only one that stressed this point to them.[/quote]

i would say that a lot of innocent people and alliances are dying because you and VE set up Polaris. not because Polaris did not try and make friends. again, according to your own words- it was your allies who were openly hostile and aggressive towards Polaris. so if i was Polaris, i sure as hell would not jump in bed with alliances like VE who would most likely throw Polaris under the bus the first chance they got (aka repeat of history there ya know).

[quote]I did that, successfully. See the 2 months of peace. I was giving Polaris advice on making that lasting, and not dependent on myself being in the middle of it.[/quote]

obviously you misread what i wrote. i said you should talk to your allies. not Polaris. since ya know, it was your allies who were openly hostile and aggressive and your allies that caused you to be pushed in the middle. Polaris had nothing to do with it. Polaris was helping an ally out that from what you wrote- your allies were in the middle of blowing up some silly !@#$ and acting hostile towards a Polar ally...

[quote]I have not done. You seem to have ignored a lot of non-so-subtle blame I've slung around in this thread.
[/quote]

honestly- i have not read this entire thread. if you are blaming other alliances that deserve to be blamed good on ya. In this instance- and from what i have read of your posts- it appears that your allies were the ones who have been for the last two months trying to war Polaris. Polaris is not one to cower and hide. and this was a set up job puts most of the blame on VE/you (from your own admission).

the posts i read of yours though- you appear to lay full blame on Polaris for this war, when Polaris is the least to blame for this war out of all involved. Hell, you are more to blame for this war than Polaris.

so basically what i got from this post was mostly your attempt at taking over that cute little title you gave me.

[KCToker]

[quote name='PMoses' timestamp='1295672607' post='2590902']
Heh, depends on who you ask? Your side or mine? Its okay. I ate bigger trolls then you could dream of being for lunch. But please do keep trying.

I haven't been wrong yet, except for in the eyes of those that seem to be backing the options of living in a CN where now war can be any given moment in the game due to being allowed to now Create CBs openly.
But please do run along, and pat yourself on the back for your alliance's supposedly defending polar. When in reality you helped them get rolled. Honestly I don't believe for one second GoD defended Polar and MK or their cronies listened to you. Archon is at least known for one thing, and thats making his own decisions, Not taking orders from a non-meaningful alliance.
[/quote]
So then, all the people from Polar saying how much Xiph helped them in [i]not[/i] getting rolled is irrelevant then, I take it? And the people [i]who were part of Q[/i] saying that Q crafted CB's, too?

Who am I kidding, of course they are, they don't fit your narrow little world view. Why [i]wouldn't[/i] they be irrelevant?

[Midkn1ght]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1295673044' post='2590920']
Read the post above of yours for the explanation for why Dajobo asked the images to be re-upped and remember that Lennox didn't spied, the screenshots where given to him by Impero.
[/quote]

Just read it, missed it before. He seems like a nice guy who just got screwed over. The smart thing to do would of been what any decent leader would of done, hell I've been in the same situation in the distant past. The instant someone starts talking to you about spying, you go into cya mode, and you go running for whoever's the leader of that alliance and let him know something's going down, maybe it's legit, maybe it's not. At the most you have a spy, at the least you have an idiot member who's trying to cause major FA problems. You don't sit there and open stuff and discuss it and think nothing of it. Daj said himself something didn't seem right about a new member having access to that sort of info, but he just didn't think like a governmental head should think. If he'd just went straight to Random, like that second instead of talking to Lennox about it, or ran right into VE's room and grabbed a gov member, or hell even went and grabbed Xiph, all this stupid mess could of been avoided. I honestly feel bad for the guy, that he was put in such a crap position, but it's entry level FA that you have to cover your butt 24/7 when you're that high up in government, especially in a hostile environment. I don't know what to say except we tried.

[D34th]

[quote name='Midkn1ght' timestamp='1295674135' post='2591026']
Just read it, missed it before. He seems like a nice guy who just got screwed over. The smart thing to do would of been what any decent leader would of done, hell I've been in the same situation in the distant past. The instant someone starts talking to you about spying, you go into cya mode, and you go running for whoever's the leader of that alliance and let him know something's going down, maybe it's legit, maybe it's not. At the most you have a spy, at the least you have an idiot member who's trying to cause major FA problems. You don't sit there and open stuff and discuss it and think nothing of it. Daj said himself something didn't seem right about a new member having access to that sort of info, but he just didn't think like a governmental head should think. If he'd just went straight to Random, like that second instead of talking to Lennox about it, or ran right into VE's room and grabbed a gov member, or hell even went and grabbed Xiph, all this stupid mess could of been avoided. I honestly feel bad for the guy, that he was put in such a crap position, but it's entry level FA that you have to cover your butt 24/7 when you're that high up in government, especially in a hostile environment. I don't know what to say except we tried.
[/quote]

I agree with everything you said, you just seems to forgot one detail, that Lennox wasn't a random guy but and old friend of Dajobo. Anyone who says that they would have not talked with an old friend because he as talking about spy on someone is just lying.

[Mergerberger II]

[quote name='Midkn1ght' timestamp='1295674135' post='2591026']
Just read it, missed it before. He seems like a nice guy who just got screwed over. The smart thing to do would of been what any decent leader would of done, hell I've been in the same situation in the distant past. The instant someone starts talking to you about spying, you go into cya mode, and you go running for whoever's the leader of that alliance and let him know something's going down, maybe it's legit, maybe it's not. At the most you have a spy, at the least you have an idiot member who's trying to cause major FA problems. You don't sit there and open stuff and discuss it and think nothing of it. Daj said himself something didn't seem right about a new member having access to that sort of info, but he just didn't think like a governmental head should think. If he'd just went straight to Random, like that second instead of talking to Lennox about it, or ran right into VE's room and grabbed a gov member, or hell even went and grabbed Xiph, all this stupid mess could of been avoided. I honestly feel bad for the guy, that he was put in such a crap position, but it's entry level FA that you have to cover your butt 24/7 when you're that high up in government, especially in a hostile environment. I don't know what to say except we tried.
[/quote]

And no one has denied any of that. Dajobo put his trust in a man who would abuse it, and he let down his guard for a man who would seek to deceive him. Dajobo believed him to be a friend, and that he was merely talking and joking with a friend, and in hindsight it is clear that that is his mistake. Indeed he did spring the trap and there is no denying that. The point of it all is, however, simple, that the Viridian Entente set up this operation and series of events in order to start their war. And I do not believe we disagree in that regard.

[Balder]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1295672843' post='2590914']
[color="#0000FF"]Nothing to say to me, Xiphypoo? Unsurprising that someone like you would flee in the face of my superior arguments and intellect. Shall I go ahead and claim victory now?[/color]
[/quote]

I'm sorry but I just felt the need to point out how sad you come across lately. I'm not entirely sure how you can even compare yourself to Xiphosis. You may bark constantly and consistently (about everything), but Xiph has the bite.

Stop talking about grandiose plans for future glory. If you've got a problem, come solve it and put your money where your mouth is. Otherwise you'll continue to be taken for the rambling has been you've become. Nipping at the heels of the influential doesn't bring back any prestige you may have had.

[bkphysics]

[quote name='Midkn1ght' timestamp='1295674135' post='2591026']
Just read it, missed it before. He seems like a nice guy who just got screwed over. The smart thing to do would of been what any decent leader would of done, hell I've been in the same situation in the distant past. The instant someone starts talking to you about spying, you go into cya mode, and you go running for whoever's the leader of that alliance and let him know something's going down, maybe it's legit, maybe it's not. At the most you have a spy, at the least you have an idiot member who's trying to cause major FA problems. You don't sit there and open stuff and discuss it and think nothing of it. Daj said himself something didn't seem right about a new member having access to that sort of info, but he just didn't think like a governmental head should think. If he'd just went straight to Random, like that second instead of talking to Lennox about it, or ran right into VE's room and grabbed a gov member, or hell even went and grabbed Xiph, all this stupid mess could of been avoided. I honestly feel bad for the guy, that he was put in such a crap position, but it's entry level FA that you have to cover your butt 24/7 when you're that high up in government, especially in a hostile environment. I don't know what to say except we tried.
[/quote]

Not going to refute that Daj made an error in judgement ... hell he even admits as much. The problem is the whole CB hung on Daj seeking this info in a premeditated fashion to spy on VE. Clearly anyone who is above drooling on their own keyboard in the IQ department can see that Daj was not such a fiend. Then, when he approaches VE to rectify/notify them of the situation, entry level FA is abandoned and the tanks are rolling.

in the end though, it doesn't matter. Daj's reputation is not tarnished now that the truth has all been aired out <frowning at Lennox> and we here on Bob get to pull up our drawers and quit the pissing contest that has been going on around here forever. The real casualties in this war in my eyes and many of us regular grunt Polars, are the alliances that are being dragged into all these conflicting battles (GATO, RoK, etc) ... It sucked when we did it to our allies in Bi-Polar (and yes, believe it or not many of us Polars felt awful about that and still do) and it sucks that VE put them all in this position now.

With that said, let's just enjoy this little "gift" we have received and believe it or not, let's enjoy this fairly even war going on.

PS:
Xiph, u know I still love ya even though u r on that dirty side

Edited January 22, 2011 by bkphysics

[Corinan]

[quote name='Balder' timestamp='1295674782' post='2591085']
I'm sorry but I just felt the need to point out how sad you come across lately. I'm not entirely sure how you can even compare yourself to Xiphosis. You may bark constantly and consistently (about everything), but Xiph has the bite.

Stop talking about grandiose plans for future glory. If you've got a problem, come solve it and put your money where your mouth is. Otherwise you'll continue to be taken for the rambling has been you've become. Nipping at the heels of the influential doesn't bring back any prestige you may have had.
[/quote]

One day I'll dance on your alliances grave.

[Dajobo]

Midkn1ght you are absolutely correct that I made some bad decisions and I 100% agree with you and the huge number of people who have said that.

I just get ticked at Impero spewing his lies and trying to make my involvement something it wasn't.

[DictatatorDan]

[color="#FF0000"]Why do I even bother posting in these things eleven pages in, with an article that will no doubt, change nobodys mind what-so-ever? I guess it is because I am gods enlightened gift to humanity et cetera.

First off, I am the most direct and untactful person in the cyberverse. I admit freely that I hate Polaris for very personal reasons, and more specifically, certain members of Polaris. This war is absolutly delightful to me on many levels. My only regret is I dont get to dictate any of the terms for its ending; which is probably more fortunate for NpO's health. I have been advocating for months that a CB is manufactured to draw them into a war for no other reason to satiate the grudge that I bear. I freely admit that I am a petty individual when it comes to these things, and that I am not allured to the excessively pious masquerade of moralism that most alliances put on. That is not to say that I lack character, but rather to say that I am indifferent to the petty rhetoric of others that attempts to unnaturally make us docile against the wishes of my baser needs.

However, my desire to see Polaris rolled has never reached the extent that I would betray the trust of any of the few people that have genuinly befreinded me. To do so is against my character.

Unfortunatly with the outset of this war, Dajobo, a very good friend of mine whose only fault is being too trusting, got caught with his hand in the "cookie-jar". Receiving confidential data about other alliances, especially those with a less than friendly relationship has always been a valid CB for war. There are those that will never be satisfied at the legitmacy of any Casus Belli, and will always be unsatisfied no matter what way we cook the books; however they will be more than satisfied when their allies turn around and do the same.

Those that seek an airtight CB, or a simple "we dont like you" statements are only intent on killing any remaining political depth within the game. The first scenario is entirely impossible as long as another side is allowed to speak out, and indeed there is enough goings-on in the game to cast a shadow of doubt on anything that arises dependent on how far some are willing to dig. The other simply reduces alliances to petty factions competing for pixelated dominance.[/color]

[Charles Stuart]

Low down dirty liars.

[Midkn1ght]

[quote name='Dajobo' timestamp='1295674963' post='2591133']
Midkn1ght you are absolutely correct that I made some bad decisions and I 100% agree with you and the huge number of people who have said that.

I just get ticked at Impero spewing his lies and trying to make my involvement something it wasn't.
[/quote]
Everyone makes mistakes mate, maybe this will give the air a good chance to clear, like it did for our two alliances after BiPolar? Look at it this way, your name is going down in history as the start of a crazy, fun war.

[Xiphosis]

[quote]PS:
Xiph, u know I still love ya even though u r on that dirty side[/quote]

It's mutual, I'm surprised to see you're still around!

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1295675772' post='2591246']
[color="#FF0000"]
Unfortunatly with the outset of this war, Dajobo, a very good friend of mine whose only fault is being too trusting, got caught with his hand in the "cookie-jar". [b]Receiving confidential data about other alliances, especially those with a less than friendly relationship has always been a valid CB for war.[/b] There are those that will never be satisfied at the legitmacy of any Casus Belli, and will always be unsatisfied no matter what way we cook the books; however they will be more than satisfied when their allies turn around and do the same. [/color]
[/quote]

that is false. VE very clearly stated that receiving confidential data about other alliances is not a valid CB for war. Ask NPO about that. i am fairly certain a rather large and CN-altering war was started over the fact that VE felt NPO [b]did not[/b] have a valid CB to go to war with OV.

so, this is not one of those "this CB is not good enough", it is that precedent has been set that "this CB is definitely not good enough" then there is the whole manufacturing done by Impero to set up Dajobo.

[Felix von Agnu]

All this talk of how terrible we are, yet no one attacks us. Hmm...

[King Srqt]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295677918' post='2591372']
that is false. VE very clearly stated that receiving confidential data about other alliances is not a valid CB for war. Ask NPO about that. i am fairly certain a rather large and CN-altering war was started over the fact that VE felt NPO [b]did not[/b] have a valid CB to go to war with OV.

so, this is not one of those "this CB is not good enough", it is that precedent has been set that "this CB is definitely not good enough" then there is the whole manufacturing done by Impero to set up Dajobo.
[/quote]
If you actually look passed the propaganda of Karma this isn't really true. VE did what they needed to do to protect OV and try to prevent a war. NPO screwed themselves when they attacked mid negotiation and pissed off TOP. I was in all the relevant back rooms before the war and those of us on the Karma side thought we were dead in the water until NPO attacked pre-maturely. A great many of the people on Karma's side thought NPO's CB was fine but we handled the diplomatic and PR fronts better to spin it.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='King Srqt' timestamp='1295678806' post='2591428']
If you actually look passed the propaganda of Karma this isn't really true. VE did what they needed to do to protect OV and try to prevent a war. NPO screwed themselves when they attacked mid negotiation and pissed off TOP. I was in all the relevant back rooms before the war and those of us on the Karma side thought we were dead in the water until NPO attacked pre-maturely. A great many of the people on Karma's side thought NPO's CB was fine but we handled the diplomatic and PR fronts better to spin it.
[/quote]

oh i know that Karma was fought for many separate reasons but officially VE stated that what Sethb did was not a valid CB for war. nothing else matters about why Karma was fought. so, you can call it spin now, but that just makes VE look even more pathetic. at least stick by some sort of standard. i don't care if it is "what Sethb did was a valid CB but VE sure as hell will not allow OV to go it alone" or what they actually did which is "what Sethb did was not a valid reason for a war and we will not allow OV to go it alone should NPO attack them".

what VE is trying to do is have it both ways. they defended Sethb and now attacked Polaris for the very reason they defended Sethb. to me it shows that VE is not an honorable alliance unless you are an ally (of course that is unless you are an ally they don't care much about at all).

[SoADarthCyfe6]

I do find it amusing how all the mindless hails (meaning hails) on the first two pages all come from PB and allies.

Polar was set up by VE so they could remove opposition and get their 'war'.

Congratulations CN, you have now laid way for the new hegemony.

[King Srqt]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295679204' post='2591450']
oh i know that Karma was fought for many separate reasons but officially VE stated that what Sethb did was not a valid CB for war. nothing else matters about why Karma was fought. so, you can call it spin now, but that just makes VE look even more pathetic. at least stick by some sort of standard. i don't care if it is "what Sethb did was a valid CB but VE sure as hell will not allow OV to go it alone" or what they actually did which is "what Sethb did was not a valid reason for a war and we will not allow OV to go it alone should NPO attack them".

what VE is trying to do is have it both ways. they defended Sethb and now attacked Polaris for the very reason they defended Sethb. to me it shows that VE is not an honorable alliance unless you are an ally (of course that is unless you are an ally they don't care much about at all).
[/quote]
They defended Seth because they had a treaty that obliged them to. Any other reasons are superfluous.

Of course it was spin, and that doesn't make anyone pathetic. Most of what NPO said was spin too just like most of what everyone on both sides of this war is saying. This is a political forum where people will come to debate and win PR points, here and back channels are where wars are won and lost and they ware won by talking and convincing. Whoever is better at that is who will win in the long term.

There is no black and white, there is no right or wrong, any war can be justified or deemed unjust, you just need to be skilled enough to make people believe what you are saying.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1295671427' post='2590848']
We actually talked to Sparta and any fears turned out to be unsubstantiated. You have not listed the main culprits.
[/quote]

Yea I was naming the alliances that were with you guys until you hit Polar that wanted absolutely nothing to do with hitting GOONS over some "honey-pot CB or whatever the $%&@ they were calling it". My point overall was by drawing a target on Polar's back and forcing people who were once your friends to a different side you done something very immoral. Of course right now it won't bite you in the ass. People aren't ready to stand up. If you continue those policies however you'll find yourself in the same exact position those you defeated are in. I only hope you guys turn around, because I had respect for most of you.