bzelger Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 The social scientists* in my illustrious nation have been pondering lately that most pressing of questions: "how would the Mushroom Kingdom skew a poll about this war?" Unfortunately, the community's erstwhile pollmaster that has served us faithfully and prolifically in the past was last seen frothing and gibbering in the propaganda thread and is not expected to return to (reach for the first time?) sanity in the foreseeable future. As such, I have carefully crafted for your abuse several hard-hitting questions. True to historical practice in these parts, I have done my best to ensure that these questions are rife with tricky wording, inadequate breadth, and joke options. If I have fallen short in that regard I beg forgiveness and am happy to accept suggestions. If the right option isn't there for you, select 'other' and post. For questions regarding whether the CB was "valid," I understand that any CB that impels a war is technically valid. What is really meant is whether YOU would take the issue in question to war - or would want your alliance to - and for the comparisons, how strongly (relatively) would you would stick to that conviction? *not actually scientists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Greenberg Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Hey...I'm glad VE attacked us. We like war too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyriq Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Good war, nothing wrong with what VE did. However, I like competitive balance and do not believe in 'rolling' an alliance, so I'm also hoping that NpO's allies stand up for them. So far so good, this is looking like a very competitive and compelling war. I am amused that Xiph's 'side' so quickly broke into warring factions though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salmia Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 A well presented poll. Kudos to you, bzelger. The results should be interesting at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branimir Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Hopefully, this will be the conflict that rejuvenates this place a bit more, contrary to the thread title. In regards to it, I can only say that it was interesting to see VE taking initiative on that side of the web but it makes sense once analyzing the rest of "hard hitters" there. It is hard to beat all the craziness of "BiPolar" which was fun to fallow, but its an interesting conflict thus far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedestro Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) Your poll is using the concept of CB as a premise, when it's becoming more clear "valid" CBS are less relevant. That's the kind of Planet Bob I want to be in at least, End-times war? Did you just make that up Edited January 21, 2011 by thedestro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Social non-scientists from League of Dunces? I voted: VE presented the situation dishonestly and it didn't merit war anyway. None of these Polar does not deserve to be rolled for their alleged offense. Although, for the last question, "Nothing against Polar, the CB was weak, but I'm glad for war of any sort" also rings true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razgriz90 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) VE presented the situation dishonestly and it didn't merit war. Maybe if they tried to solve it diplomatically, it could have been worked out. Hell, NPO and TORN had a better CB against OV in Karma. In the end, Polar shouldn't have been rolled. Edited January 21, 2011 by Razgriz90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locke Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 The first question...doesn't really capture my opinion. It could be a war worthy offense, but only after other avenues of diplomacy had failed. In this case, the CB wasn't much of consequence compared to the desire for war. My votes were the same as Tyga's. "VE's CB sucks, but Polar deserves to be rolled on general principle" made me giggle a little though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 All CBs are valid. But I think the war was started for as good a reason as any we've had on this planet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigrun Vapneir Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 On the first question: Other. The spying CB is perfectly valid, but it is obviously misapplied. It's clear Lennox was never actually working for Polaris, but for VE. Therefore the CB is nonsense as applied (by VE to attack NpO) but would have been quite valid had Polaris attacked over it. Of the precedents, the beginning of Karma war makes a pretty precise parallel. I hope at least a few of us can remember why this is ironic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masterof9puppets Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 All war is good war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zessa Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 The option "VE deserves to be rolled for producing the best CB in years [b]against themselves[/b]" is missing. But good luck to your social scientists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergerberger II Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Merger is banned from voting. This is unacceptable. Also I was under the impression the name of this war was 'Neville'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3nowned Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 There would be many out there that would roll Polar on principle, especially after the BiPolar war and the switching of sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 [quote]Nothing against Polar, the CB was weak, but I'm glad for war of any sort[/quote] I voted this option, as I was getting sick of all the threads made by some of PB's allies to try provoking what they considered the other side into war with aggressive actions, then insisting the one they are targeting DoW them first so they could chain all their MDPs. The thread by SLCB to provoke SOS Brigade comes to mind and the one by MK to provoke NPO as recent ones. Eventually the threads were reminding me of little grade school kids harassing someone and trying to get someone else to throw the first punch, so when someone catches them fighting they can claim self defense and get the other guy in trouble. Eventually the 'no u hit us first' if you want to fight comments were getting old, so it was refreshing to see one of them willing to DoW to start a war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAAAAAAAAAGGGG Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 [quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1295578533' post='2587592'] All CBs are valid. But I think the war was started for as good a reason as any we've had on this planet. [/quote] Pretty much this. Every complains that there hasn't been a war, then when shows up, the validity of the CB is being analyzed under a microscope. In my opinion there's only two types of CBs on Bob: absolutely awful ones (i.e. NEW's on DF), and questionable ones. Just be happy ya'all got a neat war out of this. This has probably been one of the more interesting wars I've seen build up to, none of which really has to do with the CB. If VE solved this without war, we'd just be sitting around doing nothing again, waiting for something to happen. In the end, your allies and military might will be the strength of you, not your e-lawyering of how airtight the CB was. Live and let live sometimes, and glow a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Believland Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Casus Belli is just a reason for war. It does not have to be bad or good. It just is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerschbs Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 [quote name='AAAAAAAAAAGGGG' timestamp='1295633287' post='2589323'] Pretty much this. Every complains that there hasn't been a war, then when shows up, the validity of the CB is being analyzed under a microscope. In my opinion there's only two types of CBs on Bob: absolutely awful ones (i.e. NEW's on DF), and questionable ones. Just be happy ya'all got a neat war out of this. This has probably been one of the more interesting wars I've seen build up to, none of which really has to do with the CB. If VE solved this without war, we'd just be sitting around doing nothing again, waiting for something to happen. In the end, your allies and military might will be the strength of you, not your e-lawyering of how airtight the CB was. Live and let live sometimes, and glow a little. [/quote] I agree with this man. NpO presented VE with one of the better CB's we have seen in a while, which is saying something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alterego Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 [quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1295575511' post='2587538'] Hey...I'm glad VE attacked us. We like war too [/quote] Then you will love the reps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCRABT Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 [quote name='AAAAAAAAAAGGGG' timestamp='1295633287' post='2589323'] Pretty much this. Every complains that there hasn't been a war, then when shows up, the validity of the CB is being analyzed under a microscope. In my opinion there's only two types of CBs on Bob: absolutely awful ones (i.e. NEW's on DF), and questionable ones. Just be happy ya'all got a neat war out of this. This has probably been one of the more interesting wars I've seen build up to, none of which really has to do with the CB. If VE solved this without war, we'd just be sitting around doing nothing again, waiting for something to happen. In the end, your allies and military might will be the strength of you, not your e-lawyering of how airtight the CB was. Live and let live sometimes, and glow a little. [/quote] While I agree with the majority of what you have said the perceived validity and whether or not it is acceptable by social convention does have a role to play. Not least it can often decide where those with split commitments will fall and can sway fringe alliances who can sometimes be the difference. The CB is just another political tool used to justify the enforcement of an alliances will. If it is contentious it can be exploited in favour of the defending alliance, that is providing they are competent enough to do so. In this case the CB is not so relevant as it is merely an excuse rather than a cause for war and the sides bar a couple of alliances were already pretty well formed prior to the DOW. Probably the most significant consideration when assessing a CB is how it will be viewed 6-12 months down the line, again a contentious CB can be a potent propaganda tool a good example of this is that used in the Woodstock massacre which was well exploited by Karma and vox-populi activists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leprecon Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 [quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1295580017' post='2587644'] On the first question: Other. The spying CB is perfectly valid, but it is obviously misapplied. It's clear Lennox was never actually working for Polaris, but for VE. Therefore the CB is nonsense as applied (by VE to attack NpO) but would have been quite valid had Polaris attacked over it. Of the precedents, the beginning of Karma war makes a pretty precise parallel. I hope at least a few of us can remember why this is ironic. [/quote] Lennox didn't choose VE as a target. He was told to go to VE. [quote] [b]20:33 Chancy I should spy on MHA[/b] 20:33 Chancy Just to make them mad [b]20:33 Dajobo|NpO| nah they aren't the enemy[/b] 20:34 Dajobo|NpO| pick domeone worth spying on 20:35 Chancy Give me suggestions [b]20:36 Dajobo|NpO| VE or MK are the two who are heavily involved in world politics[/b][/quote] Unless Dajobo is a VE spy and we told Dajobo to tell Lenox (another VE spy) to spy on the VE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Fingolfin Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 "VE's CB sucks, but Polar deserves to be rolled on general principle." Made me lol. Everyone around me looked at me awkwardly. Ended up going with "Polar deserves to be rolled for their crime against VE AND on general principle." though. A well made poll good sir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigrun Vapneir Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 [quote name='leprecon' timestamp='1295635581' post='2589373'] Lennox didn't choose VE as a target. He was told to go to VE. [/quote] Trying to hang a heavy weight from such a gossamer thin strand is a recipe for disaster. You have (received from your spy) an informal and private conversation where Dajobo humors Lennox a bit and plays what-if. Pretty much the same as every ruler on the planet does every day. You dont have Dajobo asking Lennox to do anything, you dont have him offering any sort of inducements. The information actually sent was next to useless, and formatted to be extra useless, and was never requested. You have no evidence that Polar did *anything* with the information eventually delivered to them except come to you with it - a courtesy towards you that they had no obligation to give but tried to give anyway. On the other hand, Viridia is clearly making use of the information the spy gave *you*, and Viridia is rewarding him for it. Anyone with the proverbial two brain cells in service can see what happened here. I have to say though, this does make things interesting for me. I have always been fond of Viridia and Viridians, happy to count several of you as friends though the years, I voted for Free Quebec until she deleted, I worked overtime arranging quarters for the surviving refugees when the Entente disbanded, and was proud to be the one waiting with the welcome baskets at the door when they flooded into my home. And later when your protectorate OV faced attack based on the same ludicrous nonsensical charges you are attacking Polaris under, I was among those making it clear to my alliances government that it was absolutely unacceptable, insisting that we intervene on your behalf, treaty or no treaty. On the other hand, those you are attacking excite no strong emotion in me either way, and on the broader front I see many I would like to burn till they stayed burnt. If there was any way I could possibly rationalise supporting you, I would. But there isnt. And trying to sell this fantasy-land where Polaris is responsible for your own spy, studiously ignoring just how eerily and precisely similar what you argue now is to what Pacifica argued when they demanded SethB... it only insults the intelligence of each and every ruler who reads it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashoka the Great Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 As CBs go, this one was terrible. "We don't like you" would have been preferable, plus it would have had the advantage of being completely honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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