A Recognition of Hostility

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295338070' post='2580842']
Encouraging him to pick between VE and MK when Lennox was originally going to MHA is giving direction. I never said he answered anything, I said he discussed screenshots from within VE. How did Dajobo know he wasn't spying for VE? Oh maybe because he's the one who encouraged lennox to spy on VE in the first place. Regardless of the fact that during that whole time frame, he never decided to let VE know about a spy being within their ranks.
[/quote]

Which would be entirely consistent if he didn't know there was a spy within their ranks because he never sent one.

[erikz]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1295337805' post='2580827']
I don't see him telling Lennox to spy on VE. Discussing the information, which he considered to be fake anyway, is answering a question about it? How do we know Lennox was not spying for VE and using a faked screenshot to get warchest info from Dajobo?
[/quote]
Come on Tyga. Dajobo should have never entered this conversations about 'picking another one' etc. etc. He should have said: "go away, dont bother me about spying someone."
That way he wouldn't even have to direct him to VE or MK.

[Earogema]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1295338239' post='2580847']
Which would be entirely consistent if he didn't know there was a spy within their ranks because he never sent one.
[/quote]
Well, using WC's logic, the quote "I will consider spying on VE" should have made Dajobo go to VE and warn them that somebody (a reroll in fact) would be spying on them, and to check all nations that were obvious rerolls.

EDIT: Or rather that somebody might be attempting to join to spy on them. Even Vox was sometimes warned about people attempting to be spies in our ranks.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Earogema

[Legend]

Interesting. Enjoy being curbstomped, Polar! =D

[Tygaland]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295338070' post='2580842']
Encouraging him to pick between VE and MK when Lennox was originally going to MHA is giving direction. I never said he answered anything, I said he discussed screenshots from within VE. How did Dajobo know he wasn't spying for VE? Oh maybe because he's the one who encouraged lennox to spy on VE in the first place. Regardless of the fact that during that whole time frame, he never decided to let VE know about a spy being within their ranks.
[/quote]

He didn't say that either. Lennox asked who was the powerful alliance at the moment and assumed MHA because they were the largest. Dajobo told him VE and MK were more politically powerful at this time. Not once did he encourage Lennox to do anything of the sort, Lennox made that decision himself. Dajobo didn't discourage him but he did not "place" a spy in VE at all.

The whole time frame of how long exactly? Dajobo assumed Lennox was having a lend of him, his only error was to ignore what he considered a fake screenshot rather than take it to VE. To me that does not constitute spying nor does it constitute placing a spy in VE for nefarious purposes. I do see how you and your friends would want to package it that way, however.

[Sal Paradise]

[quote name='Shodemofi' timestamp='1295334667' post='2580666']
I'm sorry you've sank to the level of Impero, VE. You used to be an alliance worth respecting.
[/quote]

They've never been an alliance worth respecting. Though I've done a great job fooling a whole lot of you.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1295338239' post='2580847']
Which would be entirely consistent if he didn't know there was a spy within their ranks because he never sent one.
[/quote]

You mean beside the fact that a guy told him he wanted to be a spy and then Dajobo himself actively told him VE and MK would be good targets. Followed by Lennox showing him screenshots from VE forums?

[Timeline]

[quote name='TheNeverender' timestamp='1295336077' post='2580737']
I'm not sure whether to be amused or distressed that people can't imagine mobilizing an alliance from peacetime and declaring war in under 20 hours as a do-able feat.
[/quote]

TheNeverender never fails to make himself look foolish, you can take an alliance from peacetime to declaring war within moments when you have been planning it for months, come on even your pet cat Lebubu would have the brain power to understand that, even if he can not translate it from meow meow meow to words people can understand.

The point here is not how fast VE and Co attacked NpO, the point is more outlined to the fact VE never tried to come to a diplomatic solution with NpO, well after all why would they this has to be the best set up I've seen in a long time.


[quote name='mdnss69' timestamp='1295336490' post='2580759']
Interesting war, sounds to me like VE couldn't muster the rest of PB fast enough. Polaris have some serious ability to break down VE, PC, iFOK and Misfits before bringing anyone else in.

Meh CB. The "I don't like you" could have saved everyone a long trawl through all these threads.
[/quote]

I think you misunderstand, the rest of PB know very well what was going on, this has been in the planning for sometime, the only thing that was missing was a CB, so they had to set it up, the rest of PB are on stand by to see who attacks, VE, iFOK and PC, how ever I do find it odd that in 20 hours all three alliances had talked to all their treaty partners and sorted out targets, damn silly me they did that two weeks ago.

[cookavich]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295337786' post='2580826']
Yes, unlucky he got caught directing a spy and working with him.

Just because he was sold out by a friend doesn't excuse him from his own actions.
[/quote]Unlucky that his friend came into the discussion with the intention of manufacturing a CB.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1295338399' post='2580852']
Well, using WC's logic, the quote "I will consider spying on VE" should have made Dajobo go to VE and warn them that somebody (a reroll in fact) would be spying on them, and to check all nations that were obvious rerolls.

EDIT: Or rather that somebody might be attempting to join to spy on them. Even Vox was sometimes warned about people attempting to be spies in our ranks.
[/quote]

VE already knew it was Lennox who had joined them. Impero approved his application immediately citing him as an experienced nation leader who was not required to pass through the academy. Hours later he had warchest info to show Dajobo. Either VE is grossly incompetent allowing a new member and a re-roll to access such information so soon after joining or this was a set up. I'm leaning towards the latter.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='erikz' timestamp='1295338276' post='2580848']
Come on Tyga. Dajobo should have never entered this conversations about 'picking another one' etc. etc. He should have said: "go away, dont bother me about spying someone."
That way he wouldn't even have to direct him to VE or MK.
[/quote]

Yes, because every one you shoot the !@#$ with on IRC is being serious all the time. Dajobo did say he had no interest in spying.

[D34th]

[quote name='erikz' timestamp='1295338276' post='2580848']
Come on Tyga. Dajobo should have never entered this conversations about 'picking another one' etc. etc. He should have said: "go away, dont bother me about spying someone."
That way he wouldn't even have to direct him to VE or MK.
[/quote]

You are right, he should have said "$%&@ off" but this doesn't make your CB more consistent.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295338579' post='2580861']
You mean beside the fact that a guy told him he wanted to be a spy and then Dajobo himself actively told him VE and MK would be good targets. Followed by Lennox showing him screenshots from VE forums?
[/quote]

He did not say they were good targets, he said they are more politically relevant than MHA.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1295338509' post='2580858']
He didn't say that either. Lennox asked who was the powerful alliance at the moment and assumed MHA because they were the largest. Dajobo told him VE and MK were more politically powerful at this time. Not once did he encourage Lennox to do anything of the sort, Lennox made that decision himself. Dajobo didn't discourage him but he did not "place" a spy in VE at all.

The whole time frame of how long exactly? Dajobo assumed Lennox was having a lend of him, his only error was to ignore what he considered a fake screenshot rather than take it to VE. To me that does not constitute spying nor does it constitute placing a spy in VE for nefarious purposes. I do see how you and your friends would want to package it that way, however.
[/quote]

Okay, so a guy comes to you and say he wants to spy and names off a target. Then you decide to name off 2 other targets that you say are more politically important. You don't think that's directing at all? If Dajobo didn't want him spying, he wouldn't have mentioned anything period, or if he did he would have warned the alliances that he had just directed Lennox to.

Taking all of this into account, the fact that he was approached first by a guy who wanted to be a spy then directing him towards another alliance, being handed a screenshot from said alliance should have immediately made him go to VE. But of course you and your friends would want to package it as a careless mistake by Dajobo, wouldn't you.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295338579' post='2580861']
You mean beside the fact that a guy told him he wanted to be a spy and then Dajobo himself actively told him VE and MK would be good targets. Followed by Lennox showing him screenshots from VE forums?
[/quote]

You show me the word target or equivalent in those logs and I'll liquidate my nation and give it all to VE. It was a casual chat, the intent that you apparently see to place a spy was not there.

[erikz]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1295338756' post='2580869']
You are right, he should have said "$%&@ off" but this doesn't make your CB more consistent.
[/quote]
I'm not talking consistency here, I'm talking stupidity, and negligence shown by Dajobo.

He should have told Lennox to @#$& off the moment he even started talking about spying, and then warned the original targeted alliance by said spy, and not suggesting two other influential alliances.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='cookavich' timestamp='1295338651' post='2580863']
Unlucky that his friend came into the discussion with the intention of manufacturing a CB.
[/quote]

And unlucky to not warn VE about said spy? Though at that point, I don't think it comes down to luck but personal choice.

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1295338660' post='2580866']
VE already knew it was Lennox who had joined them. Impero approved his application immediately citing him as an experienced nation leader who was not required to pass through the academy. Hours later he had warchest info to show Dajobo. Either VE is grossly incompetent allowing a new member and a re-roll to access such information so soon after joining or this was a set up. I'm leaning towards the latter.
[/quote]

Yes, in the logs between Lennox and Dajobo Lennox did say he would be revealing that he was himself when joining.

Also VE has already confirmed that when people sign in with their warchest, anyone of their members can see the information.

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1295338775' post='2580871']
He did not say they were good targets, he said they are more politically relevant than MHA.
[/quote]

So, you don't consider that directing him to those 2 alliances when he originally had 1 target in mind?

[Earogema]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1295338660' post='2580866']
VE already knew it was Lennox who had joined them. Impero approved his application immediately citing him as an experienced nation leader who was not required to pass through the academy. Hours later he had warchest info to show Dajobo. Either VE is grossly incompetent allowing a new member and a re-roll to access such information so soon after joining or this was a set up. I'm leaning towards the latter.
[/quote]
Well, if we assume that VE is indeed incompetent with warchest information, then the onus is still on Dajobo to have informed them that Lennox may have posed a threat and that he considered spying on VE. It seems this is the case. I figure that larger alliances may in fact have warchest problems. I mean, even Blackstone was able to get NPO warchest screens.

Granted, I understand the premise of a set-up. How did these screens reveal VE warchests? Via forum posts or through that neat system thing that Bob made?

I mean, surely now that they've already been used for a war, we can spread those around right?

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1295339055' post='2580883']
You show me the word target or equivalent in those logs and I'll liquidate my nation and give it all to VE. It was a casual chat, the intent that you apparently see to place a spy was not there.
[/quote]

Context is key, and I'm sure you're smart enough to realize this. Lennox said he wants to be a spy and said he would go after MHA. Then Dajobo said VE and MK were more politically important. If you don't think that's giving someone a direction/target, then you're being blissfully ignorant.

[bigwoody]

[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1295338586' post='2580862']
TheNeverender never fails to make himself look foolish, you can take an alliance from peacetime to declaring war within moments when you have been planning it for months, come on even your pet cat Lebubu would have the brain power to understand that, even if he can not translate it from meow meow meow to words people can understand.

The point here is not how fast VE and Co attacked NpO, the point is more outlined to the fact VE never tried to come to a diplomatic solution with NpO, well after all why would they this has to be the best set up I've seen in a long time.




I think you misunderstand, the rest of PB know very well what was going on, this has been in the planning for sometime, the only thing that was missing was a CB, so they had to set it up, the rest of PB are on stand by to see who attacks, VE, iFOK and PC, how ever I do find it odd that in 20 hours all three alliances had talked to all their treaty partners and sorted out targets, damn silly me they did that two weeks ago.
[/quote]
I've done a 12 hour turnaround before from a cold start. It is completely reasonable to imagine VE making a 20 hour turnaround.

Granted, I would have no trouble believing that VE had this planned for days, but saying a 20 hour turnaround isn't possible simply isn't true.

(Unless you are Sparta)

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1295338509' post='2580858']
He didn't say that either. Lennox asked who was the powerful alliance at the moment and assumed MHA because they were the largest. Dajobo told him VE and MK were more politically powerful at this time. Not once did he encourage Lennox to do anything of the sort, Lennox made that decision himself. Dajobo didn't discourage him but he did not "place" a spy in VE at all.

The whole time frame of how long exactly? Dajobo assumed Lennox was having a lend of him, his only error was to ignore what he considered a fake screenshot rather than take it to VE. To me that does not constitute spying nor does it constitute placing a spy in VE for nefarious purposes. I do see how you and your friends would want to package it that way, however.
[/quote]
[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1295338775' post='2580871']
He did not say they were good targets, he said they are more politically relevant than MHA.
[/quote]

20:33 Chancy I should spy on MHA
20:33 Chancy Just to make them mad
20:33 Dajobo|NpO| [b]nah they aren't the enemy[/b]
20:34 Dajobo|NpO| pick domeone worth spying on
20:35 Chancy Give me suggestions
20:36 Dajobo|NpO| VE or MK are the two who are heavily involved in world politics
20:36 Dajobo|NpO| anything that happens will come through them first

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295339105' post='2580885']
Also VE has already confirmed that when people sign in with their warchest, anyone of their members can see the information.
[/quote]

Which, for the record, is insane. If you came to me and said "Hey, I'm a regular member of alliance X and I have screens of all warchest information", my initial thought would be "this looks shoop'd", because what alliance has that info out in the open?

[Tygaland]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295338858' post='2580873']
Okay, so a guy comes to you and say he wants to spy and names off a target. Then you decide to name off 2 other targets that you say are more politically important. You don't think that's directing at all? If Dajobo didn't want him spying, he wouldn't have mentioned anything period, or if he did he would have warned the alliances that he had just directed Lennox to.
[/quote]

You keep using the word targets which no one, including Dajobo used. Lennox asked who was politically powerful at the moment and mentioned MHA. Dajobo said MK and VE were more politically powerful, that is it. What of what he said is incorrect? Where did he tell Lennox to join VE and send him info? Dajobo said he did not condone spying and wanted no part of it in the same conversation.

[quote]
Taking all of this into account, the fact that he was approached first by a guy who wanted to be a spy then directing him towards another alliance, being handed a screenshot from said alliance should have immediately made him go to VE. But of course you and your friends would want to package it as a careless mistake by Dajobo, wouldn't you.
[/quote]

It was naive of Dajobo to have the discussion that he did in the current environment.That does not prove malice though. He assumed Lennox was talking !@#$ and now it has come back to bite him. As for the screenshot, he should have gone to VE immediately but again assumed Lennox was full of !@#$ and ignored it. He didn't ask about it, he didn't request more information. Some apy master.

You and your friends wanted a "CB" and Lennox gave you one while effecting revenge on Polar for whatever reason he has. Enjoy your war, you don't need to make !@#$ up to justify yourselves anymore, the war is on, the CB is now irrelevant.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' timestamp='1295339355' post='2580896']
Which, for the record, is insane. If you came to me and said "Hey, I'm a regular member of alliance X and I have screens of all warchest information", my initial thought would be "this looks shoop'd", because what alliance has that info out in the open?
[/quote]

Several alliances do actually. Regardless if I received a screenshot from a spy, I would immediately proceed to notify that alliance about it, not keep it to myself.

[hankidan]

Best of luck to Polaris and her allies!

/o Polar