Joint Poison Clan - iFOK Announcement

[Smooth]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1292826432' post='2546032']
So what would you guys have done if Athens a year ago requested allies to stay out while they got rolled for their raids KoN? You would have stepped in militarily if diplomacy failed and not let Athens get rolled. You would all be spewing that you don't let allies get rolled no matter what. You guys are not only hypocrites but you all are also cowards.
[/quote]

And then of course ignore my post.

Manly men are manly.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1292825186' post='2545978']
That is the point of non-chaining. Otherwise every MDoAP is an MADP.
[/quote]

I can see that a good number of people need to go back to treaty writing school.

In order to have treaty as you are defining it you would need to have the following exception written into the defense clause of a MDoAP:

"The defense obligations written into this clause become optional should one of the parties be attacked as a result of engaging in an aggressive war outside of the optional aggression clause as detailed in this treaty."

If such a clause is not included, or an out is not given for immediate cancellation/suspension of the treaty should one or both parties do something criminally stupid, defense is as mandatory as it is for any standard MDP.

The whole point of adding the "oA" is to give both parties the potential (but not the obligation) to engage in aggressive warfare together against a common enemy without having to negotiate a separate agreement at the last minute.

[Jgoods45]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1292826432' post='2546032']
So what would you guys have done if Athens a year ago requested allies to stay out while they got rolled for their raids KoN? You would have stepped in militarily if diplomacy failed and not let Athens get rolled. You would all be spewing that you don't let allies get rolled no matter what. You guys are not only hypocrites but you all are also cowards.
[/quote]

If you didn't notice, we said sorry and paid some reps. Get over it dude. I know we have.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1292826255' post='2546027']
It would be PB vs the world no? That's the conclusion I draw from the talk and looking at how things would go down. Doesn't look like it was a risk PB was willing to take. I wouldn't be surprised if PB alliances pressured PC and iFOK into this decision.
[/quote]

I expect you to know better then that. PB is not an island, and every single treaty, long standing friendship, nuke, and NS point that was there yesterday is there today. Every last one. Perhaps you were speaking with someone who was being a little...overzealous? Either way, shouldn't be hard to get a more realistic picture all on your own by looking at nothing more then the mind bogglingly massive amount of conflicting treaties. The situation you suggest is literally impossible.

More grounded in reality is where the actual picture lies. No one wanted this war on a global scale because friends don't want to/cannot fight friends, and so on. Just as importantly, everyone agreed that NEW was being and continued be absurd. There was no one to stand up for here. There was no one to lay down to. This was a closed environment issue, and the substantive things that should be taken away from it are very particular and narrowly tailored to the participants and their actions.

[Sephiroth]

I'm not surprised Pandora's Box was unwilling to go to war here and that PC/iFOK went with the PB decision. Although being a member doesn't seem to mean much when all it does for you is prevent you from going to war as your other allies burn, NEW is allied to 2 members and PB was still unable to show that they have any real power here.

[Gopherbashi]

My god, so many of you like whining for the sake of whining, don't you?

[AnCapistan]

nevermind delete

Edited December 20, 2010 by Mr Damsky

[joracy]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1292826534' post='2546035']
At the time, ODN held only an ODP with us. They coulda done whatever they wanted. I dont know WTF they were thinking, upgrading with us AFTER that. Clearly, they are not that bright.
[/quote]

I blame Ryxeria to be entirely honest.

[Stelios]

yea i didnt read every single page... just the point of this...

o/ PC

[Comrade Craig]

Hailing PC and iFOK might seem self-serving from a person in my position, so I'll keep it brief. I've had the distinct honor of fighting alongside iFOK, and I consider many among their ranks to be my friends. Anyone who calls them a coward reveals himself to know absolutely nothing about them.

This situation wasn't easy for any of the involved parties.

-Crai

[Louis Balfour]

Good call, my friends.

[Aurion]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1292826901' post='2546047']
nevermind delete
[/quote]

Nice edit.

Honesty don't cost a thing, sweetheart.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1292826891' post='2546045']
I'm not surprised Pandora's Box was unwilling to go to war here and that PC/iFOK went with the PB decision. Although being a member doesn't seem to mean much when all it does for you is prevent you from going to war as your other allies burn, NEW is allied to 2 members and PB was still unable to show that they have any real power here.
[/quote]
Exactly.

Someone should make some sigs to illustrate PB's utter failure in their first showing on the world stage.

[JT Jag]

By attacking Dark Fist, NEW was attacking the alliances that claimed it as a protectorate and thus this became an optional aggression obligation. This isn't that hard to understand.

Feel free to accuse me of e-lawyering.

[Alterego]

Fark were honour bound because? PC arent honour bound because?

So much for all the talk of PC never abandoning an ally. First time for everything I guess.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1292826794' post='2546042']
I expect you to know better then that. PB is not an island, and every single treaty, long standing friendship, nuke, and NS point that was there yesterday is there today. Every last one. Perhaps you were speaking with someone who was being a little...overzealous? Either way, shouldn't be hard to get a more realistic picture all on your own by looking at nothing more then the mind bogglingly massive amount of conflicting treaties. The situation you suggest is literally impossible.

More grounded in reality is where the actual picture lies. No one wanted this war on a global scale because friends don't want to/cannot fight friends, and so on. Just as importantly, everyone agreed that NEW was being and continued be absurd. There was no one to stand up for here. There was no one to lay down to. This was a closed environment issue, and the substantive things that should be taken away from it are very particular and narrowly tailored to the participants and their actions.
[/quote]

In most cases I would but things are being said and I'm sure that most everyone is content with this not going far. I just wouldn't be so sure of what would have happened if it did if I were in your shoes. Like I said probably not a risk worth taking on your part because things might have just turned out a lot different than you think. Terms would've been really soft in this war too considering the friends thing. I think it was a war worth fighting.

[Dilber]

So if you don't need to defend it, what was the red safari?

[magicninja]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1292827294' post='2546063']
By attacking Dark Fist, NEW was attacking the alliances that claimed it as a protectorate and thus this became an optional aggression obligation. This isn't that hard to understand.

Feel free to accuse me of e-lawyering.
[/quote]

I see you read my line on IRC.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1292827229' post='2546061']
Honesty don't cost a thing, sweetheart.
[/quote]

Neither does making idle threats.

[LittleRena]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1292827346' post='2546067']
Fark were honour bound because? PC arent honour bound because?

So much for all the talk of PC never abandoning an ally. First time for everything I guess.
[/quote]

Maybe you missed the post above, here it is to help.

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1292827294' post='2546063']
By attacking Dark Fist, NEW was attacking the alliances that claimed it as a protectorate and thus this became an optional aggression obligation. This isn't that hard to understand.
[/quote]

[Alterego]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1292827522' post='2546080']
Maybe you missed the post above, here it is to help.
[/quote]
For an alliance that hit Valhalla in the last big war with no CB or treaty requirement it seems funny they cant defend al ally now when it matters. They threw away the e-lawyers in Bi-Polar to get in to a winning war and now they bring the e-lawyers back to help them abandon an ally.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Alterego

[Kim Jaym Il]

Disregard NEW, acquire solidarity.



(I'm sorry, I even agree with the decision chosen here but that joke had to be made)

[Smooth]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1292827232' post='2546062']
Exactly.

Someone should make some sigs to illustrate PB's utter failure in their first showing on the world stage.
[/quote]

Still waiting, bro.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='TheNeverender' timestamp='1292824614' post='2545941']
In a nutshell:

People who were hoping for a nice war that would snowball into C&G and SF versus PB are disappointed and want to try to taunt iFOK and PC because they didn't deliver.

People who didn't want to see friends fighting each other are happy to see that they aren't and lay praise accordingly.

Well, that was easy.
[/quote]

Ah, a fellow seasoned vet. Hail and well-met. Surely you see the humor in the situation?

[Quinoa Rex]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1292824728' post='2545951']
Of course if your ally asks you not to get involved, than it is acceptable to stay out if your ally gets hit, but that still doesn't absolve your treaty, meaning you would still have the option to get involved should you so desire.
[/quote]
This is the salient point. If I hold a mutual-defence treaty with alliance A and alliance A attacks someone and is attacked back, I prepare to go in on their behalf. However, if alliance A specifically requests that I don't get involved, their wishes supersede the treaty. Going in anyway and ignoring your ally's requests is rude at best and a direct interference at worst.

As an aside, in my experience with NEW, they don't dally with cowards. If PC and iFOK were truly being cowardly, you'd have heard about it from NEW by now, I suspect.