A Statement from the Mushroom Kingdom

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='The Corrupt Teacher' timestamp='1289319884' post='2508119']
They are considered bad posters because they don't use logic, contradict themselves, make statements that don't even relate to the current arguments at hand, and are generally just idiots. On the other hand dang...Drama count in CN must be low with this getting to 23 pages so fast.
[/quote]I'm curious what your definition of logic is? Base everything on your emotions and use every fallacy within arms reach?

[Sardonic]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1289320373' post='2508134']
Oh so don't you think that was completely to NSO benefit to do this? Read both threads again without the blind support goggles and you will see that MK losses are much worse than NSO ones.
[/quote]
Nope, let's be honest, NSO will probably never be on the winning side of a war again. It is in their interest to stop such things from happening, and not antagonize people with the gumption to make it happen.
[quote]
Also drop the !@#$%^&* about "RV could have just negotiated to a reasonable price" it's pretty clear that nobody will buy that, ask for a better excuse for your MK masters because even Archon already recognized this isn't a good one:
[/quote]
Please tell me more about "my MK masters".

[New Frontier]

"These sorts of things shouldn't be aired in public, and we are saying so in a public announcement."

Other than that, good show.

[Buds The Man]

Then you sir are a fool imo. MK has friends just as MK in the past has supported some questionable actions so too would MK receive support for their questionable actions. To think otherwise would be fool hardy at best. Considering the whole switch to paperless trend as well as moldavi doctrine citings MK may not have had a huge amount of support but would have brought plenty to the table. Alas this drifts way off topic and I shall return to my enjoyment of the popcorn and drinking my coke or is it pepsi I dont know they both seem to taste the same these days.

[gantanX]

it's a Brilliant political move MK

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1289320707' post='2508144']

Please tell me more about "my MK masters".
[/quote]

They like mushrooms, propaganda, witty come backs, exaggerating a description by putting the word ever at the end of it, and the phrase "Do something about it."


Glad I could be of service Sardonic

Edited November 9, 2010 by supercoolyellow

[AirMe]

[img]http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/2667/mkbawww.png[/img]

That image is the best non-MK propaganda in the last 3 years.

[Voytek]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1289320373' post='2508134']Also drop the !@#$%^&* about "RV could have just negotiated to a reasonable price" it's pretty clear that nobody will buy that, ask for a better excuse for your MK masters because even Archon already recognized this isn't a good one:[/quote]
I for one am not trying to defend what MK did - I am simply pointing out how NSO could have done much better for themselves (both in the PR stakes and in pragmatic terms). They would have come off as far more sympathetic, and would have been much more likely to get a positive reaction out of MK, had they approached this in good faith.

Likewise - we would have gotten a better outcome in this for ourselves if we'd approached the talks a bit differently (the internal misunderstanding was not the root cause of all this).

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1289320907' post='2508150']
[img]http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/2667/mkbawww.png[/img]

That image is the best non-MK propaganda in the last 3 years.
[/quote]
Denied for grievous sentence splicing

Edited November 9, 2010 by Voytek

[D34th]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1289320707' post='2508144']
Nope, let's be honest, NSO will probably never be on the winning side of a war again. It is in their interest to stop such things from happening, and not antagonize people with the gumption to make it happen.[/quote]

Well I'm pretty sure that they won this particular PR war, now if you are talking about real wars you're probably right.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1289320707' post='2508144']
Please tell me more about "my MK masters".
[/quote]

Once upon a time there was MK, they were in need of tech sellers...

[i]Continues next week.[/i]

[Voytek]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1289321060' post='2508152']
Well I'm pretty sure that they won this particular PR war,
[/quote]
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1289321169' post='2508153']
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
[/quote]

Denied for grevious comma usage.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1289320835' post='2508146']
MK has friends just as MK in the past has supported some questionable actions so too would MK receive support for their questionable actions. To think otherwise would be fool hardy at best.
[/quote]

Not really. The PR hit for joining the war [b]with[/b] a treaty would have been bad enough. Could you imagine the PR hit for joining without one?

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

RV, I'll just skip a few pages and go straight to the point.

You claim that you couldn't negotiate the sum because, had you tried to negotiate, we would have attacked you and yours right away.

If such an affirmation is correct (and that's really what I got from your countless ridiculous statements), then how do you explain the following:
1)We spent 1h30 arguing with two of your colleagues who explicitly refused to pay anything. That was a full hour before meeting you and they were, indeed, government officials. If we were so itching for a war that you couldn't even negotiate, how come we didn't roll you people here and there?

2)You made a gigantic PR offensive, complete with nice spins and propaganda (backroom deals, extortion, etc.) and your Emperor then backtracked on the deal and refused to pay. If we were so itching for a war, how come we didn't roll you as you did that?

The truth of the matter is that you had a lot of room to maneuver but you Siths were so busy trying to paint your member as a ghost (when there was evidence, on our side, that the guy was masked as a member on your forums) that you forgot the most simple thing: to negotiate.

Also, can you tell me what's the difference between a private discussion and "backroom strong arming"? I used to think it was because Pacifican monsters were bringing an enemy leader in a room filled with 6-7 of their own guys and would just outnumber the guy, etc.

Three MKers talked with three NSOers on that night. Heck, bros2 didn't say that much to be honest. I'm wondering where's the strongarming.

[quote]MK spoke with two members of government and were told that the nation was not a member and that NSO would not be paying their demands. They then went to RV after refusing to negotiate and demanded the same thing without options.[/quote]
We were told to go after RV because your two other members stonewalled the negotiation for 1h30 and were unable to recognize simple facts such as these:
1)Guy is on your AA;
2)Guy is masked on your forums;
3)Therefore MK thinks guy is a member.

I'm quite sure that 99% of alliances out there would have agreed with us. I'm sorry if I don't take Siths at their word when I have evidence pointing to the contrary.

"No, trust us, he's not a member, he's just, well, masked you know! It happens!"

Also, RV had options. Options were always present. Sorry for not going in and saying:
"Well, we're asking 15m-250t but you know, you can take 9m-150t or 6m-100t really and we'll be cool. So, what will it be, dear?"

[bhane]

Honestly, if I ever have an issue with NSO I would charge a 100M fee just for the headache of trying to deal with RV and the rest of these degenerates. Some of you alliance leaders have way to much patience for these people.

[AirMe]

I stand by my "Son, I am disappoint" comment.

[IMG]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e110/airmike94/images.jpg[/IMG]

[D34th]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1289320937' post='2508151']
I for one am not trying to defend what MK did - I am simply pointing out how NSO could have done much better for themselves (both in the PR stakes and in pragmatic terms). They would have come off as far more sympathetic, and would have been much more likely to get a positive reaction out of MK, had they approached this in good faith.

Likewise - we would have gotten a better outcome in this for ourselves if we'd approached the talks a bit differently (the internal misunderstanding was not the root cause of all this).
[/quote]

Smart decision not try to defend what MK did anymore, because would be weird defend it when your king already recognized the mistake, but this don't stop the MK drones to keep trying to defend the extortion.

A better thing to try explain besides that is why MK, the alliance who has expertise in the use of PR war, doesn't like when it is used against them.

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1289321169' post='2508153']
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
[/quote]

Yeah mine and of the great majority of the posters of this thread, but if you think that MK image is better after this whole fiasco ok, that's just, like, your opinion.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1289321283' post='2508155']
Not really. The PR hit for joining the war [b]with[/b] a treaty would have been bad enough. Could you imagine the PR hit for joining without one?
[/quote]
It depends on what side of the web said alliance is one. On NSO's side of the web sure, there would be outrage. On MK's side of the web people really wouldn't really care about treaty ties at all. It would just be an avenue to kill NSO again, which is quite a welcome activity in those parts.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1289321436' post='2508158']
RV, I'll just skip a few pages and go straight to the point.

You claim that you couldn't negotiate the sum because, had you tried to negotiate, we would have attacked you and yours right away.

If such an affirmation is correct (and that's really what I got from your countless ridiculous statements), then how do you explain the following:
1)We spent 1h30 arguing with two of your colleagues who explicitly refused to pay anything. That was a full hour before meeting you and they were, indeed, government officials. If we were so itching for a war that you couldn't even negotiate, how come we didn't roll you people here and there?

2)You made a gigantic PR offensive, complete with nice spins and propaganda (backroom deals, extortion, etc.) and your Emperor then backtracked on the deal and refused to pay. If we were so itching for a war, how come we didn't roll you as you did that?

The truth of the matter is that you had a lot of room to maneuver but you Siths were so busy trying to paint your member as a ghost (when there was evidence, on our side, that the guy was masked as a member on your forums) that you forgot the most simple thing: to negotiate.

Also, can you tell me what's the difference between a private discussion and "backroom strong arming"? I used to think it was because Pacifican monsters were bringing an enemy leader in a room filled with 6-7 of their own guys and would just outnumber the guy, etc.

Three MKers talked with three NSOers on that night. Heck, bros2 didn't say that much to be honest. I'm wondering where's the strongarming.


We were told to go after RV because your two other members stonewalled the negotiation for 1h30 and were unable to recognize simple facts such as these:
1)Guy is on your AA;
2)Guy is masked on your forums;
3)Therefore MK thinks guy is a member.

I'm quite sure that 99% of alliances out there would have agreed with us. I'm sorry if I don't take Siths at their word when I have evidence pointing to the contrary.

"No, trust us, he's not a member, he's just, well, masked you know! It happens!"

Also, RV had options. Options were always present. Sorry for not going in and saying:
"Well, we're asking 15m-250t but you know, you can take 9m-150t or 6m-100t really and we'll be cool. So, what will it be, dear?"
[/quote]Standard procedure throughout history is to release aid thieves to face the consequences of their own actions. Granting the alliance immunity.

But you couldn't very well extort 250 tech out of such a tiny nation, so you looked to NSO.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1289315819' post='2508040']
This is so true. This whole issue is about two stubborn groups of people who were both very wrong, and refuse to bend in public to save face. I happen to think Yev, Pip, and RV each handled this very poorly, the first two with their initial offer which was far too high and for not still demanding reps after NSO released the guy for attack, what should have happened is MK just took it out on the guy who committed the offense. They were also wrong for trying to deal with RV when the rational approach would have been to continue to deal with people like Lint, who are actually interested in good faith negotiations to solve issues. RV at the same time clearly wasn't in the conversation in good faith, he was prepared from the start to not aim to reach an amicable situation but to aim to extract as much sensationalism to litter the OWF with.

That MK was initially wrong doesn't matter nearly as much as the old saying that two wrongs don't make a right. MK was wrong to go after NSO the way they did and for the amount they did, but at the same time RV decided to be wrong on top of that for the sake of spiting MK. It is because of that second wrong that the first couldn't be corrected more amicably, and caused the actual damages to NSO in MK not backing down from their initial number.

If RV entered the 'negotiations' in good faith, this situation would have been avoided and no one would have left this with their butt singed.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Oh, but I did enter the negotiations in good faith. I had no intention of taking this public until [i]after[/i] it became clear there could be no good faith negotiations, and that MK was not interested in listening to us at all.

Anyway, tell me, which is the more unforgivable offense? A larger power, in private, trying to strong arm a more weakly positioned alliance into giving into unreasonable and uncalled for demands simply because it can get away with it? Or is taking such misdeeds and abuses of power to the public eye?[/color]

[AAAAAAAAAAGGGG]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1289321060' post='2508152']
Well I'm pretty sure that they won this particular PR war, now if you are talking about real wars you're probably right.
[/quote]

It's a shame real wars are the only things that matter.

[quote]
Once upon a time there was MK, they were in need of tech sellers...

[i]Continues next week.[/i]
[/quote]

You mean Umbrella never dealt tech with GOONS?

[Mr. Teets]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1289320937' post='2508151']
I for one am not trying to defend what MK did - I am simply pointing out how NSO could have done much better for themselves (both in the PR stakes and in pragmatic terms). They would have come off as far more sympathetic, and would have been much more likely to get a positive reaction out of MK, had they approached this in good faith.[/quote]

You demand outrageous reps and now complain that they weren't sympathetic? Here's a tissue.

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1289321436' post='2508158']We were told to go after RV because your two other members stonewalled the negotiation for 1h30 and were unable to recognize simple facts such as these:
1)Guy is on your AA;
2)Guy is masked on your forums;
3)Therefore MK thinks guy is a member.

I'm quite sure that 99% of alliances out there would have agreed with us. I'm sorry if I don't take Siths at their word when I have evidence pointing to the contrary.

"No, trust us, he's not a member, he's just, well, masked you know! It happens!"[/quote]

No, I think 99% of alliances would drop the issue when NSO said he was no longer a member. Masked or not, they said they weren't protecting him, unless alliances are responsible for ghosts now...

[Voytek]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1289321735' post='2508162']Smart decision not try to defend what MK did anymore, because would be weird defend it when your king already recognized the mistake, but this don't stop the MK drones to keep trying to defend the extortion.

A better thing to try explain besides that is why MK, the alliance who has expertise in the use of PR war, doesn't like when it is used against them.[/quote]
Why do you post? Seriously what goes through your mind

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1289321735' post='2508162']Yeah mine and of the great majority of the posters of this thread, but if you think that MK image is better after this whole fiasco ok, that's just, like, your opinion.[/quote]
My opinion is that neither NSO nor MK won this PR war

[quote name='Mr. Teets' timestamp='1289321969' post='2508167']You demand outrageous reps and now complain that they weren't sympathetic? Here's a tissue.[/quote]
It's like I didn't write anything else in that post. How amazingly capable the human brain is of ignoring things it doesn't want to see.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Voytek

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1289321790' post='2508164']
Standard procedure throughout history is to release aid thieves to face the consequences of their own actions. Granting the alliance immunity.

But you couldn't very well extort 250 tech out of such a tiny nation, so you looked to NSO.
[/quote]
Or we just felt that they were trying to take the very easy road and would later welcome back the nation in their ranks, because that's exactly what they have done in the past with other offenders, you know?

Because, quite frankly, a nation with 130 levels of infrastructure doesn't face much and isn't really a waste for them.

But interesting deflection there, HoT.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Yevgeni Luchenkov

[Epiphanus]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1289311528' post='2507965']
Except that you are wrong.

MK spoke with two members of government and were told that the nation was not a member and that NSO would not be paying their demands. They then went to RV after refusing to negotiate and demanded the same thing without options. That isn't a negotiation by any definition. RV had already read the transcript of the previous conversation when entering the logged talks so he was aware of the MK position from the start.

Plus, thanks for noticing that I never bother with the subtle crap. Too little straight talk here these days for my tastes.
[/quote]
You couldn't be more wrong with your "here's how it happened." If you are going to bother to post, at least get your facts straight.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1289318109' post='2508073']
If the nation was flying 'GOONS' we would probably attack him ourselves.

Also, @ RV:

Really RV, I don't see why you even bothered taking it public, it didn't help when we 'liberated' the money from dopp, and it only made things worse here for you.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]When you got money from Dopp you actually had a reason. He aided a rogue who had attacked you. MK, on the other hand, was just unhappy that they lost a trade. There is a difference between the two situations, and they are not comparable.[/color]