Backroom Extortion is Back

[heggo]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1289247791' post='2506452']
You cannot know that which you did not try to find out <...> is the linchpin of the situation.
[/quote]
Well you're about right at least when I edit your post that way. Let's be honest. Do you think MK was looking for a fair and just resolution when they could, just by showing an unwillingness to investigate further, extort us for the princely sum they've taken, or perhaps have the opportunity once more to see my alliance rolled for spurious reasons? No, doubtlessly they would benefit more from either of the latter, and therefore were angling for those.

Now, we at the NSO are no strangers to the idea of realist power politics, and frankly are neither baffled nor insulted by either those who practice power politics plainly and justify their ways through an appeal to strength or by those who, with their sophistry, build up pretensions that MK isn't engaging in power politics at all. (Though we have known both, I will admit to finding it a tad odd that they're trying to both play politics with the big boys and pretend they're doing no such thing simultaneously.)

Still, we being perhaps better equipped than others to recognize the employ of both power politics and propaganda, felt in someway obliged to the rest of you to point out their practice of it and to remind you that those who will not stand together to check those in power will find themselves living only by its grace apart.


PS -
A word of advice for MK about playing power politics right. Typically, it is better to outright kill people than to merely insult us. Were we dead, we would be silent and a problem to you no further. Yet since we live, the air is filled with our just complaints and whispers of whatever else the future may hold.

[King Louis the II]

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1289239308' post='2506269']


This is blatant extortion. MK knows that it's blatant extortion. And you know, if this had been done to some decent alliance, I would be disappointed in MK a lot right now. But it wasn't done to a decent alliance. It was done to NSO. NSO, this is the price you pay for your own attempts at extortion and various other diplomatic malfeasances over the time you have been alive. This is the price you pay for blowing smoke at someone with a lot of nukes and an itchy trigger finger. This is the price you pay for trying to play Machiavelli and showing no long-term loyalty whatsoever to your allies. It does eventually catch up with you.
[/quote]

^ this sums all....

[Ardus]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1289251937' post='2506526']
Yeah it has, read the thread and you will see at least 3 different excuses, I know it's hard to find but they are there, a little hidden because of the [i]ad hominem[/i] attacks and insults against NSO but there.

My favorite, hands down, is that your alliance is asking NSO to pay punitive reparations because MK is trying to prevent the declination in world population.
[/quote]
Somebody suggested blowing up the individual would have been better. I gave a reason why that might not be. A tangent in a larger thread, not a core point or reason.

[2burnt2eat]

Oh boy. MK upholds another one of their cherished values...

or not.

Just a few days ago, MK attacked President Hardin because they didn't like what he posted (i.e. telling Lebubu to stop being a troll). Oh, how I do reminiscence those days where [i]"you can't post something the Hegemony didn't like without being afraid of being attacked"[/i] was a talking point.

Full circle, huh?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='citizenkane' timestamp='1289244759' post='2506396']
This isnt tech deals and this isnt[i] every[/i] alliance. This is the same NSO that chose to go to war over something that could have been sorted for 3mil.
[/quote]

and i am not exactly the hugest fan of NSO at all. yet, to me it does not matter who the alliance is. what matters are the actions that MK took. and frankly, this precedent as all precedents in the past have several venues with which they can take. One of which, a nation screws MK on a tech deal and MK will then go to the alliance and regardless of whether they alliance gives the scammer over to MK, MK will extort or attempt to extort 750 tech from said alliance.

so as i stated, i hope all other alliances take a good long look at this and hopefully cease conducting tech deals or trade circles with MK until MK gets over this ridiculous notion that they have some right to extort alliances, regardless of who the alliance is.

[quote name='MagicalTrevor' timestamp='1289246012' post='2506425']
Should have been 3mil50tech, nothing more.


The "masked ghost" stuff is some of the worst e-lawyering i've seen on on CN, good job on that RV.
[/quote]

should have been no more than 3million or the cost that the MK member actually spent. as for the masked ghost bit, who honestly cares. the only line that is relevant is the one where RV specifically states said nation is no longer under protection of the NSO. the fact that you and others have stressed this membership issue shows how pathetic this crap really is. ya'll keep conveniently ignoring the fact that RV offered up the scammer on a silver platter to ya'll. it is just some cheap PR attempt to cover up the extortion you are extracting for no reason.

that is the worst e-lawyering i've seen on CN.

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1289246211' post='2506430']
You know as well as I do that the logic does not impute there (at least I hope so).

Anyway, as for my thoughts on this, [b]those who scam aid are universally subject to punishment[/b], and this situation is no different in that regard. Perhaps a bit harsh? Maybe, but that facet of the situation is subjective and does not speak to the validity of the action as a whole. As for the actions of the nation being projected onto NSO, it entirely depends if the nation is going to be treated as a member and granted the privileges and immunities provided to such a classification (which includes the alliance paying for the mistakes of the member when he is unable to do so), and there undeniably is a great deal of confusion in those logs about whether or not that is the case. Assuming the worst is always prudent when presented with such confusion, and that is all that happened. No great evil was committed here in my opinion, despite the fact that I personally may have handled it differently.
[/quote]

fact is, the scammer is not being punished in the least. so this situation is vastly different in that regard. the fact is, the scammer had any protection ceased yet MK still extorted NSO. there is absolutely no confusion unless you personally put it there in an attempt to somehow justify extortion.

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1289250015' post='2506499']
I would just like to chip in and tell people to stop throwing the word "extortion" around like it fits whatever negative context you want it to. Extortion has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of compensation asked for. So HoT, even if you only asked for 6m, in this situation, that'd [i]still[/i] be extortion! Please people, stop the proliferation of buzz words.
[/quote]

except for extortion fits quite well with this situation. if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck,looks like a duck, it is a duck.

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1289251884' post='2506525']
Thanks, RV. I do appreciate being in major logs for the first time.

Tungsten got it absolutely right on page 2 or 3 but I'll do a small recap nevertheless.

We approached NSO because one of their members had scammed us. There's no "not a member" "a masked ghost" or "perhaps a ghost". Lintwad, their former Emperor and Prophet, first told us that the guy was a full member. Then, two of RV's colleagues spent an hour and a half trying to argue that the guy had never been a member, despite the fact that there was [url=http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/4428/lordrevanacolyte.jpg]a guy on their forums, with the same name, masked as a member[/url].

They said we would hear back from RV or Heggo and we, indeed, were contacted by RV an hour later. RV would go on to confirm that the guy [i]was a member[/i] and that they had $%&@ed up. Logs, posted by RV himself, confirms that and he says his two colleagues were in the wrong. Now, one could point out that it's a bit problematic when higher govt doesn't know who's a member and who isn't but hey.


As for the reparations themselves, we asked for token reparations. 3m-50t for each of the trade circle members, ammounting to 15m-250t, takes a single nation only a single aid cycle to pay. The very definition of "token". Yes, we held NSO responsible. What's interesting is that they did cold hard maths instead of protecting their member: should we pay 15m-250t or just throw the guy out, after all, he only has 130 levels of infrastructure. They decided to go with the cheaper solution. We refused. They would never try to bargain again through the whole ordeal.

Yet, through all of this, none of them took the time to [i]negotiate[/i]. We demanded 15m-250t because, get this, we know how negotiations usually work. Yet, the Siths did not. They spent all of the evening trying to lie through their teeth to avoid having to pay a single cent, contradicting each other many times in the process, and then just accepted our demands without even blinking (kinda showing that, for them too, it was a minimal ammount to pay).

Here's a lesson: next time, learn to negotiate. Of course, we'll ask for an higher figure. That's just how things work.

As a sidenote, to all those who scream that they won't trade with us, I'm quite confident that you're already not trading with us. Moreover, we don't pursue punitive damages from people who cancel on us after trading with us for some time. We'll seek retribution if you take up aid-for-trade and cancel [i]two days later[/i], scamming us like thieves.

That's about it.
[/quote]

except you keep leaving out where NSO dropped the member and said they were no longer protecting him. 3m/50t is not token reps at all. the initial 3m being given back is the only reps necessary. that was the entire amount scammed and you raised it by 750%. if you raise the reps by 750% that is hardly token regardless of the actual amount and how quickly it can be done.

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289250363' post='2506504']
I'm willing to bet he'd be laughing, would probably offer slightly lower payment (as he is most reasonable), then realize RV posted logs of his conversation on here, and then continue laughing.
[/quote]

Interesting ill remember that. Im heading back to the popcorn machine anyone else need a refill

[Banksy]

[quote name='2burnt2eat' timestamp='1289252654' post='2506534']
-Slander-
[/quote]
I'd watch your back if I were you!

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1289251374' post='2506517']
Heh, I like how the equivalent of MK's demands have gone up from $20m (which is is) to $30m, somehow. I'm assuming it has something to do with witchcraft.[/quote]Please tell me where you are getting 250 tech for only $5 million (Or, as such a rate is more commonly expressed, 3 million for 150 tech). I'd love to be in on a deal that sweet. 'cause nowadays, it's hard to get even 100/$3m going. Usually you have to settle for 50/$3m.

[quote]Anyways. Extortion is, in essence, obtaining goods from a third party via coersion. You might say that if one is entitled to those goods then it falls outside the range of extortion, but generally in the case of reps "entitled to" is entirely subjective. Honestly I don't care if what MK did was "extortion" - but that doesn't mean you can pull the "bigger man" routine, decrying MK's extortion while claiming you'd take an alternate, less harsh route of [i]extortion[/i].

I think the word you're looking for is "extortionate", or perhaps even "exorbitant". (Careful though, they're adjectives, not verbs, so adjust your complaints accordingly!)

Edit: For the record, I don't think it's extortion. I have no sympathy for NSO, as it appears they either have no idea how to negotiate, or had no intent to anyways.
[/quote]Right, because MK didn't coerce NSO into paying fees for damages that were outside NSO's responsibility? Maybe MK feels entitled to it, but it doesn't mean they can make anyone they want pay. The person paying has to be responsible for the damages caused, and in this case, NSO falls short of that requirement. Therefore, it is extortion.

It's like if your neighbor shot me in the leg, and I demanded that you should pay my medical bills because I saw you at a party with him last week. So it is not merely extortionist, it is straight up extortion. Literally, extortion, I'm not using the word as a sensationalized cry of wrongdoing. It is, literally, extortion.

In my example, I give them an [i]option[/i], where they can pay damages to retain the member [i]or[/i] release the member. There is no such option here, and that is the big issue. Whether or not I would eventually settle on an additional $3m "slot usage fee" is irrelevant to the bigger picture.

NSO isn't optionally taking responsibility to retain a member, they are being blamed for something that they clearly had no responsibility for, nor do they desire to take responsibility. Placing blame on them is an artificial construction by MK in order to extort money from NSO.

[tolkheleknar]

Yes, please interpret this as hard, unchangeable MK policy towards all canceled trades, ever, in the future. This logic is bedrock-solid.

[2burnt2eat]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1289253076' post='2506538']
I'd watch your back if I were you!
[/quote]

I don't have a back. I am a simple piece of toast.

[Cotillion]

[quote name='2burnt2eat' timestamp='1289252654' post='2506534']
Oh boy. MK upholds another one of their cherished values...

or not.

Just a few days ago, MK attacked President Hardin because they didn't like what he posted (i.e. telling Lebubu to stop being a troll). Oh, how I do reminiscence those days where [i]"you can't post something the Hegemony didn't like without being afraid of being attacked"[/i] was a talking point.

Full circle, huh?
[/quote]

Yes, full circle. I literally attacked President Hardin because I was enraged at his slander of dear leader.

dealwithit.gif

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='2burnt2eat' timestamp='1289252654' post='2506534']
Oh boy. MK upholds another one of their cherished values...

or not.

Just a few days ago, MK attacked President Hardin because they didn't like what he posted (i.e. telling Lebubu to stop being a troll). Oh, how I do reminiscence those days where [i]"you can't post something the Hegemony didn't like without being afraid of being attacked"[/i] was a talking point.

Full circle, huh?
[/quote]What's your nation and NS? Don't feel you need to be on at update [IMG]http://imgur.com/DsZLn.gif[/IMG]

[Banksy]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1289253090' post='2506539']
Please tell me where you are getting 250 tech for only $5 million (Or, as such a rate is more commonly expressed, 3 million for 150 tech). I'd love to be in on a deal that sweet. 'cause nowadays, it's hard to get even 100/$3m going. Usually you have to settle for 50/$3m.[/quote]
Your economic minister appears to be [doin it rong].

[Banksy]

[quote name='2burnt2eat' timestamp='1289253169' post='2506541']
I don't have a back. I am a simple piece of toast.
[/quote]
Deflecting and back-tracking will not allow you to escape punishment for your crimes against The Kingdom[sup]TM[/sup]

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1289253076' post='2506538']
I'd watch your back if I were you!
[/quote]As MK members continue to make threats against speaking one's mind, only to invariably fall back on the weak defense of "lol we're only joking, stop being so uptight, lolol." I don't think many people are buying it anymore.

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1289253435' post='2506547']
As MK members continue to make threats against speaking one's mind, only to invariably fall back on the weak defense of "lol we're only joking, stop being so uptight, lolol." I don't think many people are buying it anymore.
[/quote]It's hard for us to bear when everything in your minds are objectively awful.

[2burnt2eat]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1289253363' post='2506545']
Deflecting and back-tracking will not allow you to escape punishment for your crimes against The Kingdom[sup]TM[/sup]
[/quote]
Let me know where you find where I did that.

[Goldie]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1289251752' post='2506523']
Sal hit it on the head here. Even if the nation that left the trade circle was and is a fully-fledged member of NSO, the most MK could possibly be justified for asking for is the return of the 3M and/or the expulsion of the nation. Considering NSO explicitly stated they would not be harbouring him, I'm having a hard time seeing how they are in any way liable for the actions of that nation. Especially so since the damages caused to the MK nations came in such a roundabout way as losing revenue from losing a trade during a backcollect. NSO had nothing to do with that loss of revenue.
[/quote]

I agree with this sentiment to the point of I think NSO, by releasing the person to be attacked, should have seen the end of it from their end. If they did not want to release him for attack, then reps would come into play in order to help MK get the justice for its nations it deserved. I was hoping to see this end with MK just ZI'ing the person, and look forward to a much more amicable solution for both parties than has been presented throughout the thread.

[Cotillion]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1289253435' post='2506547']
As MK members continue to make threats against speaking one's mind, only to invariably fall back on the weak defense of "lol we're only joking, stop being so uptight, lolol." I don't think many people are buying it anymore.
[/quote]

Watch it, punk, you'll be next.

[brickyard]

haters gon hate.

You know the political landscape of Bob is in a rut when [i]this[/i] is taken to such proportions. Obviously, MK are evil overlords who want nothing more than to extort other players. Its a requirement to join, really.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

When members $%&@ up, it's not just an "individual" !@#$@#$ up. That individual is a member of an alliance and he's wearing colours. That's the basis of most CBs out there, that alliances are responsible for the actions of their members. How many were rolled for actually accepting information or having a spy in their midst? Did the whole alliance get rolled or just an individual?

Obviously, as the offense wasn't as serious, we didn't pursue war, despite NSO trying to throw their members out there as some kind of cheap bargaining tool.

Dochartaigh, if NSO had been so opposed to the ammount, don't you think that they would have tried to bring it down? We talked to three of their higher ups, and an imperator emeritus, and none of them has tried to bring the numbers down. Not once. They never counter-offered anything.

If they don't want to pay, next time, they can also, you know, negotiate.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1289253298' post='2506544']
Your economic minister appears to be [doin it rong].
[/quote]Besides not having any ministers at all, 64Digits does not make a policy of resigning our new members to a life of tech slavery so that the upper tier can grow without bound. I'm sorry to hear that is now new members of MK are treated.

[Banksy]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1289253435' post='2506547']
As MK members continue to make threats against speaking one's mind, only to invariably fall back on the weak defense of "lol we're only joking, stop being so uptight, lolol." I don't think many people are buying it anymore.
[/quote]
Why exactly would be be defending our position here? If you back-chat us in public, we'll give you the back of our hand. It's quite a simple policy.

[quote name='2burnt2eat' timestamp='1289253522' post='2506549']
Let me know where you find where I did that.
[/quote]
In your previous post. I hope you have a decent warchest.

[2burnt2eat]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1289253708' post='2506556']
In your previous post. I hope you have a decent warchest.
[/quote]
Saying isn't the same as finding. I hope you have enough money to jump to my level.

[Banksy]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1289253631' post='2506555']
Besides not having any ministers at all, 64Digits does not make a policy of resigning our new members to a life of tech slavery so that the upper tier can grow without bound. I'm sorry to hear that is now new members of MK are treated.
[/quote]
As a rule, MK doesn't have internal sellers. It's hardly our fault that other alliances like yours and apparently the NSO are incompetent enough to settle for 3/50 deals.