Pandora's Box

[Aurion]

UPN really and truly doesn't deserve ODN.

Seriously, how can an alliance that terrible luck into an ally willing to save them from their own idiocy?

Edited October 8, 2010 by Aurion

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1286560028' post='2478961']
Care to respond to me calling you a liar? You posted a bunch of unrelated things then ignored it.
[/quote]

I'm quite sure I already did:

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1286556192' post='2478913']
Dear boy, you wouldn't know wit if I put it on the sole of my shoe while I tapdance all around you.
[/quote]
[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1286557056' post='2478920']
That's a cute little thing to say, nice phrase, but believe me I would.[/quote]


This is a stupid-joke that you wrote for me. It's soooo satisfying. Kill the [OOC]Nancy Grace act Impero, she's smarter.[/OOC]

[Bob Janova]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1286559850' post='2478958']
You recognize its an alliance war yet you still use your sanctions to support GOONS in it. Seems your not using your senate seat for the benefit of the green team if your allowing a black team alliance, GOONS who are the only alliance on black rejected from NOIR as far as I know, decide how you use it.
[/quote]
I wasn't referring to KN there, which as I explained to you in PM has been determined not to be an alliance by the council of the UJA, hence the sanction. I was talking about UOKCB or whatever they're called.

All of this seems fairly irrelevant to this bloc though.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1286559901' post='2478959']
[20:49] <%Biff[CoJ]> If we do, DoW, we should just say it is about Methrage
[/quote]
Everyone can still DoW GOONS if they want and just use this CB. Probably a better CB than most wars these days.

[Nobody Expects]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1286559019' post='2478946']
Here's what they thought their side was:

[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> CoJ (in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> Nemesis (in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> NoR (in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> NpO (in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> LoSS(in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> IAA (in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> GATO(maybe)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> NSO(in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> 64Digits (in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> DT (In with NoR)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> Valhalla (Vote)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> UPN (in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> Invictia(Vote)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> BAPS(Vote)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> OcUK (in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> NV (Hold 4 MDoAPs..)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> AZTEC (If NV is in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> STA (in with NpO)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> Sparta (Vote)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> ODN (In with UPN)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> Asgaard (in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> DarkFist (will defend Nemesis)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> \m/ (votes so maybe)

So no, not even close to even.
[/quote]

You have to love the way it works, one of BAPS triums joins a chan he's invited to, and all of a sudden we are rolling GOONS with UPN. I can tell you, Sardonic, hell would have to freeze over before I went to bat with flakes like UPN and NpO, let alone on a CB pulled out of someones behind. We paid you 15m for the rogue who expressed a wish to join us, that was decided the day before all this nonsense kicked off, and tbqh I think 15m was a bargain price to pay and very reasonable. Now please stop dragging BAPS name up with regard to this coalition led by unreliable incompetents.

[Shaazzam]

edit: the twists and turns of theses threads always get me

Edited October 8, 2010 by Shaazzam

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Nobody Expects' timestamp='1286561426' post='2478973']
You have to love the way it works, one of BAPS triums joins a chan he's invited to, and all of a sudden we are rolling GOONS with UPN. I can tell you, Sardonic, hell would have to freeze over before I went to bat with flakes like UPN and NpO, let alone on a CB pulled out of someones behind. We paid you 15m for the rogue who expressed a wish to join us, that was decided the day before all this nonsense kicked off, and tbqh I think 15m was a bargain price to pay and very reasonable. Now please stop dragging BAPS name up with regard to this coalition led by unreliable incompetents.
[/quote]
My apologies, no offense was intended, I was merely going off of what I had in the log.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1286557161' post='2478921']
"First of all, we can't be assed to raid correctly one damn time in the middle of a war with 4 alliances and a week after a thread displaying over 60 bad raids is published on the OWF while we're trying to convince 5 alliances that it's a good idea to include us in a bloc which will put them on the hook for us and courting MK to give us a new treaty. We couldn't give the government of UPN proof 3 days ago, but don't worry we've had plenty of time to cook some up so it's on its way soon, you'll see! We consider $1m sufficient reps for attacking a member of an alliance for at least the 61st time this year, but we'll be damned if we get less than a brazillion when someone makes a mistake with us."

Blah blah blah. Pathetic. What's it like to be unable to control the alliance you founded?
[/quote]
"I suffer from cognitive distortion and actually believe my terrible deflections, faulty logic, belittling debate style, and ability to outright ignore any question that would be damaging to my arguments makes me a clever and witty person."

Bloo bloo bloo. Deplorable. What's it like to be unable to fully control your own cognitive processes?

[Sardonic]

Also just to highlight Schatt's lying once again, I was right about the raided nation being the one to request the 1m.

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2082/74509753.jpg

They both should have confirmed with their governments beforehand, but whatever.

[Jens of the desert]

[quote name='Logan' timestamp='1286405714' post='2477496']
Yeah this block looks it includes most of the better alliances around, I am in support.
[/quote]
Shame a significant proportion of the bloc hates one of your closest allies.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1286561965' post='2478983']
Also just to highlight Schatt's lying once again, I was right about the raided nation being the one to request the 1m.

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2082/74509753.jpg

They both should have confirmed with their governments beforehand, but whatever.
[/quote]

Since when do individual nations negotiate reps with alliances and vice-versa? UPN's government was discussing the issue with you, you subverted the process and turned tail as fast as you could.

[Gobb]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1286556885' post='2478919']
Well, Gobb, now you know. And knowing's half the battle.
[/quote]
Well, you see I was referring to your post by not knowing enough, since you have a history of presenting your 'adversaries' in worse light than it really is. After Sardonic's post, I now know something from both sides of the story and it looks like yet again GOONS is not the boogyman you paint them as. Still, I won't be engaged in an argument about this, as it clearly would be better handled by GOONS.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1286557355' post='2478923']
The raid against [url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=401396"]Flame Pillars[/url]. The war was deleted because GOONS is quick to erase what evidence they can, but you can see the $1 million in his aid slot.
[/quote]
I think that was covered above.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1286557355' post='2478923']
As for 64Digits, if someone rogues on us, we will, depending on our mood that day, ZI them, or at most go in and ZT and ZL them as well. But once they've been destroyed, we let them go, provided they're not going to continue roguing on us. No reps or anything. There would be reps if they wanted to get off the hook before they were completely destroyed, but nothing that they couldn't pay themselves.

And we would pursue them through peace mode, and I am not saying that UPN wasn't incorrect to claim GOONS was wrong for doing so. Rogues must seek peace from their pursuers. GOONS was wrong in that their demands were unreasonable, but wrong to the former UOKMB nations and not wrong to UPN. UPN was, at most, stepping up to the plate to tell GOONS that they were wronging these nations and that they would defend those nations. And, as per NSO policy in the past, the nations' membership in UPN is irrelevant to whether or not UPN would have supported or defended them against GOONS directly. All in all, it would have been a shaky cause for war.
[/quote]
All I have to say regarding these rogues is you reap what you sow, and it's all subjective. Personally, if I were to go rogue I wouldn't expect my targets to just let me off easily when I'm done. The subjective part it that what are considered unreasonable reps by you are in my opinion perfectly reasonable. The rogues have caused hundreds of millions in damage and I don't see why UPN couldn't pay 15M per rogue if they wanted them. If the rogues wanted to peace out on their own, I'm sure GOONS would offer an alternative if 15M was completely unbearable.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1286557355' post='2478923']
What would have been a better cause, and what was ongoing at the same time, was the [i]completely separate[/i] attack by GOONS against a longstanding UPN member, as mentioned above, and the subsequent bully tactics utilized by GOONS to pay a mere $1 million to make UPN shut up. UPN didn't have to take that kind of crap from GOONS, and this would have been a far more valid cause for war, but by the looks of it, they backed down in the end and let GOONS push them around.
[/quote]
I can't wait to see these infamous bully tactics GOONS used.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1286557355' post='2478923']
And it's not relevant to the 15m demanded of the UOKMB group, although it certainly helps to highlight the general attitudes of GOONS. I never claimed the two were relevant or had anything to do with each other beyond you guys setting up a straw man with them. I did not even address the $15m per UOKMB nation incident except to point it out as a straw man. What I did claim was relevant was the contrast between GOONS demanding that everyone pay them $90 million per offense against them versus GOONS demanding that they only be liable for $1 million when they themselves screw up, to highlight one of the many reasons why people hate GOONS.
[/quote]
And the difference here is the 1M was paid for a raid on a nation under 1k infra (they apparently thought was a ghost), whereas Methrage is a known nuclear rogue and secretly aiding him shows a clear intention of harming GOONS.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1286558520' post='2478937']
you apparently aren't reading what HoT posted. i would damn well call it extortion if i had a GOONS member rogue an IAA member and we got a measly $1-3 million over it but if an IAA member rogues GOONS, they demand $90 million.

i am not entirely sure what is all going on but that is the impression i got from reading HoT's post. i am not stating GOONS did this or did not do this but i don't think HoT is specifically stating that taking reps from a nuke rogue is extortion just that given that GOONS was only willing to pay $1 million for their rogue, it is extortition ($90m vs $1m or 90 times bigger reps for roguing GOONS vs GOONS roguing you).
[/quote]
Uhh, the UPN guy lost a whopping 138 NS in the one day attack of this GOONS "rogue". Honestly, calling that a rogue and making it look like it's the same as secretly aiding a known nuclear rogue isn't really encouraging me to reply to you in any serious and coherent way.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1286562559' post='2478994']
Since when do individual nations negotiate reps with alliances and vice-versa? UPN's government was discussing the issue with you, you subverted the process and turned tail as fast as you could.
[/quote]
Right. Or maybe UPN told Flame Pillars to arrange the whole thing so they'd have PR ammo against GOONS. If the $1m was so unacceptable, what other reason would Flame Pillars have for accepting it?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1286559019' post='2478946']
Here's what they thought their side was:

[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> CoJ (in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> Nemesis (in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> NoR (in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> NpO (in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> LoSS(in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> IAA (in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> GATO(maybe)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> NSO(in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> 64Digits (in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> DT (In with NoR)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> Valhalla (Vote)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> UPN (in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> Invictia(Vote)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> BAPS(Vote)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> OcUK (in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> NV (Hold 4 MDoAPs..)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> AZTEC (If NV is in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> STA (in with NpO)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> Sparta (Vote)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> ODN (In with UPN)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> Asgaard (in)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> DarkFist (will defend Nemesis)
[19:46] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> \m/ (votes so maybe)

So no, not even close to even.
[/quote]

again, i really don't have a clue just going off of what others say. thanks for the lineup. i would kind of liked to be in war regardless of whether we got crushed or not. though, not sure what your side would have looked like though. not to mention if ODN went in, there would be a good chance Athens, =LOST=, and GR would have joined in (IAA and ODN). also, is OcUK even relevant at this point?

also just to point out, i really don't care about UPN. i don't like them nor hate them as others do, simply indifferent towards them. but i just like war.

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1286559315' post='2478948']
Incorrect. That is, unless the IAA member joins a group of rogues, plots to destroy GOONS for months, then nukes us for weeks

In which case we ask for $15m, not $90m.
[/quote]

well if the IAA member joined a group of rogues, then they would hopefully not be on our AA.

[quote name='Lord Gobb' timestamp='1286563180' post='2478999']
Uhh, the UPN guy lost a whopping 138 NS in the one day attack of this GOONS "rogue". Honestly, calling that a rogue and making it look like it's the same as secretly aiding a known nuclear rogue isn't really encouraging me to reply to you in any serious and coherent way.
[/quote]

again, i stated i did not really know the situation that well, was just giving you my interpretation of what HoT wrote. GOONS and UPN could go to war for all i care. if i get dragged in, so be it, i likes war.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1286560586' post='2478966']
I'm quite sure I already did:
[/quote]

No, you said something completely unrelated, and you're still saying unrelated things.

Schattenmann, my statement is very, very narrow: You lied.

You hold yourself out as some sort of truthbringer to the masses, screaming and yelling at the top of your lungs about anything GOONS related and making post after post attempting to defame them, and lieing in a public venue about a matter which you are very vocal on speaks volumes about the rest of your words here. The fact of the matter is you have showed a propensity to lie about your involvement and investment here, and it calls your character into question. Refusing to address it will not make reality any less real.

Stop responding with nonsensical statements which aren't even close to being on point to what I'm saying about you.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1286562559' post='2478994']
Since when do individual nations negotiate reps with alliances and vice-versa? UPN's government was discussing the issue with you, you subverted the process and turned tail as fast as you could.
[/quote]
Keep digging Schatt, nobody but your few loyal fools believe it. It was done without government knowledge. When Peggy raised the issue of the 1m being insufficient, I said that I would gladly wait for a damage calculation (though I thought it a waste of time as there is no way in hell a 6 day old nation does more than 1m in damage that quickly), if she wanted that paid instead.

Give it up, you lost, find some other issue to berate us over.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1286563795' post='2479007']
No, you said something completely unrelated, and you're still saying unrelated things.

Schattenmann, my statement is very, very narrow: You lied.

You hold yourself out as some sort of truthbringer to the masses, screaming and yelling at the top of your lungs about anything GOONS related and making post after post attempting to defame them, and lieing in a public venue about a matter which you are very vocal on speaks volumes about the rest of your words here. The fact of the matter is you have showed a propensity to lie about your involvement and investment here, and it calls your character into question. Refusing to address it will not make reality any less real.

Stop responding with nonsensical statements which aren't even close to being on point to what I'm saying about you.
[/quote]
Impero, I'm going to say this very slowly for your benefit, because you're the only one in the room that doesn't get it and you think you're on to something and its embarrassing to watch: The comment you are calling a lie is clearly tongue-in-cheek. There is a popular TV show in my tiny nation Schloss Eggenberg called Perry Mason, where a clever prosecutor ends each show with an AH-HA! moment. I can see you're going for it, but you're just not there because you're such a buffoon.

[raasaa]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1286563788' post='2479006']
again, i really don't have a clue just going off of what others say. thanks for the lineup. i would kind of liked to be in war regardless of whether we got crushed or not. though, not sure what your side would have looked like though. not to mention if ODN went in, there would be a good chance Athens, =LOST=, and GR would have joined in (IAA and ODN). also, is OcUK even relevant at this point?
[/quote]
erm...2 things...

GOONS has a MDoAP with =LOST=.....i dont see how ODN would have pulled them in onto UPN's side. Rather, =LOST= can pull ODN onto the GOONS side

Secondly, if 64digits is relevant, so is OcUK

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1286564700' post='2479018']
Impero, I'm going to say this very slowly for your benefit, because you're the only one in the room that doesn't get it and you think you're on to something and its embarrassing to watch: The comment you are calling a lie is clearly tongue-in-cheek. There is a popular TV show in my tiny nation Schloss Eggenberg called Perry Mason, where a clever prosecutor ends each show with an AH-HA! moment. I can see you're going for it, but you're just not there because you're such a buffoon.
[/quote]

What the hell are you talking about Perry Mason for?

"Clearly tongue in cheek"...so you are now saying you were joking?

Buffoon?


Wow man, I have to say its great to see you scramble so badly.

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Nobody Expects' timestamp='1286561426' post='2478973']
You have to love the way it works, one of BAPS triums joins a chan he's invited to, and all of a sudden we are rolling GOONS with UPN. I can tell you, Sardonic, hell would have to freeze over before I went to bat with flakes like UPN and NpO, let alone on a CB pulled out of someones behind. We paid you 15m for the rogue who expressed a wish to join us, that was decided the day before all this nonsense kicked off, and tbqh I think 15m was a bargain price to pay and very reasonable. Now please stop dragging BAPS name up with regard to this coalition led by unreliable incompetents.
[/quote]

That's probably wrong to call BAPS a 'maybe' in the coalition, but if that conflict DID develop into a world-conflict, and all your allies in Valhalla, Invicta, Olympus and Nebula-X all joined/chained in on UPN's side... would you really be willing to become essentially what you hate about UPN and stay out? My guess is no.

[Biazt]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1286564700' post='2479018']
Impero, I'm going to say this very slowly for your benefit, because you're the only one in the room that doesn't get it and you think you're on to something and its embarrassing to watch: The comment you are calling a lie is clearly tongue-in-cheek. There is a popular TV show in my tiny nation Schloss Eggenberg called Perry Mason, where a clever prosecutor ends each show with an AH-HA! moment. I can see you're going for it, but you're just not there because you're such a buffoon.
[/quote]
Ah, the classic "I was joking" backpedal.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1286563977' post='2479012']
Keep digging Schatt, nobody but your few loyal fools believe it. It was done without government knowledge. When Peggy raised the issue of the 1m being insufficient, I said that I would gladly wait for a damage calculation (though I thought it a waste of time as there is no way in hell a 6 day old nation does more than 1m in damage that quickly), if she wanted that paid instead.

Give it up, you lost, find some other issue to berate us over.
[/quote]
Allow me to clarify this.

On the 6th I finally got to talk to Avocado (the person who attacked the UPN member by mistake). The attack was the result of a 6-day-old member reading an ancient thread that pegged the person as a ghost. It was long inaccurate but he didn't read the date it was posted. That said, it was still a mistake by GOONS, so I tried to rectify the situation with Peggy.

<Beefspari[GOONS]> Hey Peggy, did Warlord talk to you/
<Peggy_Sue|UPN> no
<Beefspari[GOONS]> Hang on a sec. I talked to Pangui and Warlord. Was waiting for you to log on.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> About the 1m thing
<Beefspari[GOONS]> I finally got to talk to Avocado
<Beefspari[GOONS]> I was trying to track down whoever told him to send 1m by talking to his company leader
<Beefspari[GOONS]> Avocado is kind of an idiot, only been playing for 6 days.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> Anyway,
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [8:56:45 PM] <Beefspari> Who was it that told you to send 1m?
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [8:57:03 PM] <Avocadoes> To the nation I attacked acciently?
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [8:57:08 PM] <Beefspari> Yes
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [8:57:21 PM] <Avocadoes> Yeah. Well he asked me for 1M
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [8:58:32 PM] <Avocadoes> let me find it it'll be a minute
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [8:59:26 PM] <Avocadoes> OK, I send him the apology message about the attack then he sent me this
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [8:59:27 PM] <Avocadoes> Message: please send your condolences in the means of one million to rebuild my economy ever so crushed, and to reparate, as i don't have even enough to pay bills.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [9:01:18 PM] <Beefspari> But can I have his name please? =p
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [9:01:40 PM] <Avocadoes> Charizard
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [9:01:42 PM] <Avocadoes> http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=401396
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [9:02:29 PM] <Beefspari> Thanks.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> [9:05:25 PM] <Avocadoes> The guy was understanding and even requested adding me as a buddy, so I assume everything was OK on his end.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> The guy who actually got hit was the one that asked for 1m.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> Avocado should've confirmed it with someone, and he knows better now, but there's that.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> If you need something else to consider the situation resolved let me know.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> He took a screenshot too.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2082/74509753.jpg

Peggy never responded, so I sent her a message the following day, on the 7th.

<Beefspari[GOONS]> Peggy, did you get my message last night about the 1m thing?
<Peggy_Sue|UPN> yes
<Beefspari[GOONS]> As I said if there's anything else you need to consider the situation resolved let us know, otherwise the guy who got attacked seems satisfied with the conclusion.
<Peggy_Sue|UPN> our nation should also have confirmed it with someone and he, as Avocado, hopefully knows better now
<Peggy_Sue|UPN> UPN is not satisfied with the outcome, but OsRavan and Sardonic did their own deal
<Beefspari[GOONS]> Well what would you have wanted to consider the accidental attack resolved?
<Peggy_Sue|UPN> I'd research the amount GOONs demanded from a similar situation and I'd ask the same
<Beefspari[GOONS]> We tend to just ask for damages or a flat 3m if it's not that big a deal.

The logs clearly show that A) it was the UPN member who was hit that requested the 1m, B) said UPN member is happy with the conclusion and accepted the peace willingly, and C) Avocado and the UPN guy are even friends now. Furthermore, I presented the information to Peggy twice, and offered additional compensation if she was not satisfied. I was ignored twice.

Now given the fact that Peggy has the facts and that the person who was attacked is completely satisfied, I don't see how there's anything left to argue. If UPN or anyone else (like Schat) tries to keep pushing this issue, they're reaching. The problem was resolved to the satisfaction of those involved, and even so compensation was offered numerous times. There's nothing left for GOONS to do on our end, and bringing this up again would be digging up an already resolved issue. This incident is closed.

[Biazt]

And this is why UPN is a laughing stock.

[Wabooz]

A glimpse into all future PB announcements. Enjoy VE, Umb & company.

[Reptyler]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1286564700' post='2479018']
Impero, I'm going to say this very slowly for your benefit, because you're the only one in the room that doesn't get it and you think you're on to something and its embarrassing to watch: The comment you are calling a lie is clearly tongue-in-cheek. There is a popular TV show in my tiny nation Schloss Eggenberg called Perry Mason, where a clever prosecutor ends each show with an AH-HA! moment. I can see you're going for it, but you're just not there because you're such a buffoon.
[/quote]
Oh, so you were just joking? I get it.

"To err is human. To completely ignore, deflect, and to refuse to admit you have erred is Schattenman."