Spy Poll

[Rebounder]

In the earlier days of CN, spying was a key political tool; it created intelligence for many major alliances, and captured spies created both worldwide drama and juicy CBs. However, that drama, in recent times, has been missing, save for the escapades of Vox, FAN, OcUK, etc. With the anti-NPO "terrorist" spies gone, do you believe spying still occurs on Planet Bob? Maybe you, dear reader, are a spy, and would care to verify in the poll that spying does exist? Worry not, for the poll is private, and the alliance you're spying on will never know that you voted "Yes."

To give my opinion, I do not believe major alliance spy on one another anymore, and that is a shame. If I were in charge of a 100+ member alliance, I probably would order 5 spies to flutter about CN and fetch vital intelligence from enemy alliances. However, you are not all Rebounder, and I understand your cowardice, though I resent it.

P.S. I realize people are going to "for the lulz" vote "Yes" in question 1. However, I put the option out of empathy for the spies that may lurk out there. I know it's liberating, after so many lies, to just tell the truth once in a while, even if nobody even knows you did so.

P.P.S. DOn't make up some tricky answer to question 1. Let's just assume that "allegience" can only be held for one alliance.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Rebounder

[Sandwich Controversy]

Major alliances don't have professional spies. You can't get any valuable information simply from being a spy without a government position. You can't get a government position without putting an absurd amount of effort into helping your enemies so they trust you with secrets. It's not a good way of doing things, especially when there are so many better ways of learning things if you're sufficiently connected.

[Rebounder]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1282456567' post='2426414']
Major alliances don't have professional spies. You can't get any valuable information simply from being a spy without a government position. You can't get a government position without putting an absurd amount of effort into helping your enemies so they trust you with secrets. It's not a good way of doing things, especially when there are so many better ways of learning things if you're sufficiently connected.
[/quote]

I disagree that alliances now have a decent enough OPSEC to keep spies uninformed. Plus, in many alliances, obtaining a government position takes maybe two months of work, tops.

[Sandwich Controversy]

That's still two months (and only two months in a really bad alliance, probably not worth your time anyway) of helping your enemies when there are so many work-free methods of finding things out.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Sandwich Controversy

[Rebounder]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1282457029' post='2426421']
That's still two months (and only two months in a really bad alliance, probably not worth your time anyway) of helping your enemies when there are so many work-free methods of finding things out.
[/quote]

True, but also keep in mind they are also growing your nation. That would come in handy for, hypothetically, an alliance in a losing war, or held under terms.

[SiCkO]

The CN rumor mill seems to work well enough for me

[Moridin]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1282456567' post='2426414']
Major alliances don't have professional spies. You can't get any valuable information simply from being a spy without a government position. You can't get a government position without putting an absurd amount of effort into helping your enemies so they trust you with secrets. It's not a good way of doing things, especially when there are so many better ways of learning things if you're sufficiently connected.
[/quote]

This is pretty much it. The work it takes to gain a high enough place in a major alliance that allows you access to information worth stealing is in almost every case going to do more good for that alliance than you will do harm in your spying efforts. I don't doubt that a couple alliances have a spy or two, but I strongly doubt it's very prevalent at all and I doubt that the few spies that do exist are in high-level positions in major alliances.

[quote name='Rebounder' timestamp='1282456931' post='2426418']
I disagree that alliances now have a decent enough OPSEC to keep spies uninformed. Plus, in many alliances, obtaining a government position takes maybe two months of work, tops.
[/quote]

If an alliance has bad enough OPSEC that regular members can obtain highly classified information, then it has bad enough OPSEC than non-members can do the same. The only reason OPSEC is as impossible to maintain as it is these days is because people have an inexplicable urge to blab information to anyone they consider a friend, and those friends don't have any reason not to pass it further along. Given that such friendships often exist across different alliances, it's just as easy, if not easier, to learn what are supposedly 'secrets' by knowing the right people rather than by being in the right alliance. As for how long it takes to get a government position, that varies but in major alliances two months of work is an extremely conservative estimate. For example, the fastest I can remember seeing someone reach Minister in Polar (which is when you get access to actually important information; sorry, Deputies!) was probably no less than five or six months.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Moridin

[memoryproblems]

[img]http://image.fpsbanana.com/ico/sprays/fyi.jpg[/img]

I spy on my alliance, which I formed and currently lead, for another unnamed alliance.

And I'm sure there are spies out there, its inevitable, but they aren't as effective or as widespread as they may have been in 2006.

Edited August 22, 2010 by memoryproblems

[Biff Webster]

Is there anything worth spying for anymore? Look at how fast things escalated with this latest war. As far as long term planning, it isn't really a secret who wants to roll who.

[Xiphosis]

Know for a fact it still occurs.

[Doitzel]

Terrorists? Fearless armed liberators, I think you mean!

[Banksy]

Spying does occur, but its usefulness is minimal compared to having good contacts in gov, as bj mentioned.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Banksy

[Biff Webster]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1282459699' post='2426458']
Know for a fact it still occurs.
[/quote]


Getting anything good?

[Alexander Kerensky]

There is always going to be spies though the information gained is probably less useful, with guest access to most forums you know the room temp and know whats going on. Plus as long as most AAs have been flying flags gaining "new" insight isn't really needed.

[Bob Janova]

Spying is fairly pointless, and certainly not worth the risk (getting your alliance rolled). Vox could do it because they were under PZI [i]anyway[/i] so there was no real danger involved in spying, but a normal alliance which enjoys a peaceful existence is risking its whole way of life by spying, and for very little reward. I've never spied and if anyone comes to me and suggests it, I'll explain why it's a very bad idea. Having friends (and treaties with intelligence clauses!) scattered across CN will get you most of the information that a spy would without being dangerous.

[LittleRena]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1282458425' post='2426442']
I spy on my alliance, which I formed and currently lead, for another unnamed alliance.
[/quote]

And unnamed alliance appreciates it greatly.

[jer]

[quote name='SiCkO' timestamp='1282457733' post='2426430']
The CN rumor mill seems to work well enough for me
[/quote]
Exactly. Spies aren't necessary because there are so many government members who can relied upon to flap their lips whenever they receive any information that isn't immediately public knowledge.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Aimee Mann

[xoindotnler]

I remember something about a spy, I think he went away as our forums are a ghost-town.

[VeritasK]

Heard rumors in an Unsecured Internet Relay Chat Channel that a Spy is acting as a recruiter in a sanctioned alliance who only recruits more spies from their true alliance and as a group they plan on over throwing the Alliance in question in Civil War. It is a shame I don't know which alliance it was. Rumors being rumors, most likely aren't true.

But you have to admit, that would be something worth doing through Spy Ops.... if it was at all possible. Don't think it is...

[ccabal86]

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1282470854' post='2426521']
Getting anything good?
[/quote]

We'll figure out...in 6 months

[Haflinger]

Spying in the sense of the OP, where alliances plant spies in their enemies' alliances, is much less common than treason; people deciding that their alliance is no longer serving their interests and contacting outside forces with information.

People do still plant spies though. Yeah it's dumb, but it's not really even close to the dumbest thing alliances do.

[CRexx]

Your whole definition of spying/intelligence operations is much too simple. With the mess that is the treaty web today odds are you have someone who is currently unhappy with their allies and happens to high enough gov they have access to some form of joint command channel and is willing to leak information.

You don't plant someone to become a Trium, MoFA, etc. You find the Trium who is unhappy the other two voted to sign some MDAP and is willing to log dump or hand over screenshots. Spying is all about cultivating those resources, becoming friends with them, gaining their trust and such, all for that day when they log dump for you.

Planting people in another alliance is more useful in a friendly alliance that is struggling or becoming less friendly. Send some people over, have them work hard, get elected and have them do a treaty upgrade, etc. That method has yielded some good tech farms and meat shields to my knowledge. If you're going to have people work their way into high gov, you coup that !@#$, not merely spy.

[Ashoka the Great]

If someone joins the alliance and then leaves after a short period of time, I automatically assume that they have joined for the sole purpose of grabbing our guides. This is especially true if they suddenly decide they now have the 'inspiration' to start their own alliance.

If a member leaves for an alliance that we are not on friendly terms with, I assume they have been spying for that alliance or will soon "dump" a lot of what they consider to be interesting/useful/incriminating information in the other alliance's lap.

During my brief time as Nordreich's Kaiser, I had a member approach me to confess that they had been planted in the alliance as a spy by another alliance. However, this person had actually come to like us, and ultimately couldn't go through with it. I had often suspected as much of them, so I uttered a quick "All is forgiven, go and sin no more" and that was that.

In retrospect, I suppose I should have started a war over it.

[Masterof9puppets]

True Life: I am a spy.

[Adrian LaCroix]

Why would you spy? OPSEC in this place is terrible enough that you could learn about as much just sitting on IRC for any appreciable amount of time.