Red Raiding Safari

[Voytek]

That's OK, I don't think I can be bothered tracing the convoluted thought processes that go into any more of your posts anyway.

[Tequila Mockingbird]

Might = right.











I call this masterpiece, "[i]Supreme[/i] Irony."
xfd

[Banksy]

[quote name='D34th' date='20 July 2010 - 10:25 PM' timestamp='1279617903' post='2380338']
Morality is immoral I know.

What you're saying is a flawed logic, it's like say "No law, no criminals"
[/quote]
No. It's like wanting to sit on a particular park bench. And then someone standing near it knows you want to sit there, but doesn't want you there because he likes looking at the empty bench. So he says 'no, i'm making a law that says no one can sit on this park bench' because he knows you really want to sit there and he's bored, so he wants to annoy you. And you look around, and see a whole lot of other park benches available. But you're quite pissed off because you knows the 'law' is bogus, and you really wanted to sit there because the grass is greener or some !@#$. So in protest, you sit on the bench. And then he writes a letter complaining about how you sat there.

[BDRocks]

[quote name='D34th' date='20 July 2010 - 02:56 AM' timestamp='1279619780' post='2380355']
So you mean, stop to protect an entire sphere and will not raid this sphere anymore? Or stop to protect an entire sphere and we will still raid but just not under the Red Safari banner?
[/quote]
Won't raid under the banner aka less raiding because those raiding just to spite NPO and Red Dawn will stop

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Banksy' date='20 July 2010 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1279616112' post='2380315']
Yes, I agree with the later part, this was a dumb move.


heh Patronage is certainly a better word. I guess our difference is that I see patronage as unacceptable, essentially as it can be interpreted as a de facto Moldavi Doctrine.

That said, the manner in which this has been handled is childish, from both sides. The NPO is using the fact that the Karma terms said there will be no continuation of the 'original' Moldavi doctrine to try and launch a PR battle on the Karma signatories. They are using the other signatories of Red Dawn for this end. They could have chosen a thousand other names for this policy, but instead chose to use the 'Revenge Doctrine' in an attempt to rile people up. They are not in the position to back up this raid up, it is a shallow attempt at spinning some negative PR points for 'the unjust.' GOONs, \m/, MK etc fell for the bait rather spectacularly.

I am confused as to why CoJ are letting themselves be used for this, however. Last I heard, Moo was the one e-lawyering his way around this. Where is the NPO's response?
[/quote]

1. So it is indeed about NPO
2. They're all riled up over a name? -.-

SG Hegemony, Ascend o\

[Banksy]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='20 July 2010 - 11:50 PM' timestamp='1279623029' post='2380374']
1. So it is indeed about NPO
2. They're all riled up over a name? -.-

SG Hegemony, Ascend o\
[/quote]
1. Yes, that is what I said.
2. No, the are riled up about the protection. But the name isn't there coincidentally.

And yes that's really relevant!

[Ryuzaki]

[quote name='Believland' date='20 July 2010 - 10:12 PM' timestamp='1279617115' post='2380330']
Yes, but you took out The Cult along with the other members of Red Dawn, out of the equation. I can see why you're so mistaken now.
[/quote]

The other signatories are more or less meaningless in this situation. NPO is 13 million NS, the others [i]combined[/i] are less than 1.5 million.

[R3nowned]

Gee, what's new? Not like those alliances haven't shown that this is what they're like over the past year. Of course, it is better than viceroys, indefinite war, banning people from government, EZI/PZI etc...

Shouldn't be surprised guys...

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Ryuzaki' date='20 July 2010 - 03:55 PM' timestamp='1279623294' post='2380377']
The other signatories are more or less meaningless in this situation. NPO is 13 million NS, the others [i]combined[/i] are less than 1.5 million.
[/quote]

You're being intentionally dumb trying to compare NSs of alliances in isolation of how the treaties would get activated and others would get involved if it comes to that. Or maybe its unintentional of you.

[der_ko]

[quote name='R3nowned' date='20 July 2010 - 01:03 PM' timestamp='1279623788' post='2380383']
Gee, what's new? Not like those alliances haven't shown that this is what they're like over the past year. Of course, it is better than viceroys, indefinite war, banning people from government, EZI/PZI etc...

Shouldn't be surprised guys...
[/quote]
No, you shouldn't be surprised. Raiding has always existed on Bob and will continue to exist until "God" pulls the plug.

[Banksy]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='21 July 2010 - 12:07 AM' timestamp='1279624012' post='2380386']
You're being intentionally dumb trying to compare NSs of alliances in isolation of how the treaties would get activated and others would get involved if it comes to that.[/quote]
He's showing that there is no point in denying who is dominating Red-Dawn. If you want to take this down the 'who has the most MDPs' route then the NPO would dominate that too. Claiming this is red-dawn action is just a way for the NPO to legitimise it's claim over the red sphere and to deny that this is the 'same' Revenge doctrine as Karma's terms prevent that doctrine from coming back.

[quote name='shahenshah' date='21 July 2010 - 12:07 AM' timestamp='1279624012' post='2380386'] Or maybe its unintentional of you.[/quote]
Clever!

[Scorponok]

This will not end well.

Wheres Pacifica when you need 'em hey :S

[SirWilliam]

How dare people raid red team nations that constitute legitimate targets. CN, where's the humanity!?

[kriekfreak]

I've heard those evil FOKkers were in on it aswell. Don't they have any moral standards pffff.

Edited July 20, 2010 by kriekfreak

[Voytek]

[quote name='Scorponok' date='20 July 2010 - 09:29 PM' timestamp='1279625381' post='2380402']
This will not end well.

Wheres Pacifica when you need 'em hey :S
[/quote]

Getting VERY VERY ANGRY!! about the situation. That's quite literally it.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='20 July 2010 - 01:44 AM' timestamp='1279604640' post='2380088']
There's no interest in starting a war with any alliance on red.
[/quote]
Then why aren't you raiding other colours?

[quote name='Voytek' date='20 July 2010 - 03:12 AM' timestamp='1279609940' post='2380237']
Not so much about demonstrating our own power as it is about demonstrating NPO's lack thereof. Their days of essentially claiming ownership of a colour sphere are done and dusted.
[/quote]
[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='20 July 2010 - 02:03 AM' timestamp='1279605776' post='2380127']
Yes, this brave new era where we don't allow groups to claim whole colour spheres for themselves.
[/quote]
Explain how protecting someone is the same as claiming them as property.

Or does MK own its protectorates?

[quote name='Jacapo Saladin' date='20 July 2010 - 02:20 AM' timestamp='1279606816' post='2380165']
Here is a question. Why does red think it is a special sphere? Do you think it is fine to have people raid other spheres, but you get outraged when your own sphere is hit?
[/quote]
Here's another question. Why does purple oppose the idea of protecting itself?

[quote name='Sakura' date='20 July 2010 - 02:37 AM' timestamp='1279607839' post='2380186']
\m/ and GOONS are not signatory to NOIR, and they're free to raid black as much as they want.
[/quote]
Which, at the moment, translates into 2 black raids for \m/ and 11 for GOONS. Let's just say that even \m/ has more raids on Red now than GOONS has on the largest team on Bob.

[quote name='Banksy' date='20 July 2010 - 02:44 AM' timestamp='1279608269' post='2380200']
Red is the same as any other sphere. While I don't personally agree with raiding, I don't have an issue with Red being targeted at all. Sphere protectionism is ridiculous.
[/quote]
Ah, ODN. How far you've come. I expect soon you will announce you've amended your charter to give permission for your nations to raid, as long as it's not against Orange nations.

[R3nowned]

I don't see the huge fuss. As I said, why are you guys surprised that something like this has happened? I'm surprised it hasn't happened EARLIER.

Tech raiding unaligned. Boo hoo. It happens everyday, everywhere on every single colour.

[Bob Janova]

This is as disgraceful as when GGA deliberately raided unaligned nations to try to pull GATO into a war through CNARF. You are using innocent nations as pawns in your silly games. If you want to stick two fingers up at NPO, there are more direct ways to do it that don't hurt people who have nothing to do with it.

You're just proving that SG is in the hegemonic position and is happy to use that position for its own selfish ends. Several of you who are now going on about sovereign rights and such nonsense [i]did[/i] have 'no raiding red' rules before Karma, so you're a bunch of hypocrites who like to spout fake libertarianism when it gives you an excuse to bully others while screaming about moralism when someone points out that you are stamping all over the rights of others to make a political point.

Red Dawn should claim that the Revenge Doctrine is a protectorate treaty, that you have started an offensive war against them and roll the lot of you.

[Corinan]

"We're doing this because we can and because you can't stop us. Do something about it." There's something very familiar about this for me. Clearly the only thing that Karma changed was the names and faces in power. I'll be very pleased when you're finally taken down. Your day will come, Hegemony. Flex that power while you can. Enjoy it, for it is fleeting.

[LokiLockpicker]

I believe the simpler way for Red Dawn to express their outrage, would be to start funding the various alliances being raided on red and some of the unaligned nations. Smaller nations could easily crush raiders with a $15 million boost, especially if it comes with the 10k soldiers. Then the raiders would either declare war on them for funding targets or stop. It makes a lot more sense than complaining about the raids.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='20 July 2010 - 10:31 PM' timestamp='1279629047' post='2380449']Red Dawn should claim that the Revenge Doctrine is a protectorate treaty, that you have started an offensive war against them and roll the lot of you.[/quote]

I agree. We have been very naughty and deserve to be punished by the Red Dawn military juggernaut.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]Smaller nations could easily crush raiders with a $15 million boost, especially if it comes with the 10k soldiers.[/quote]
Oh hey, that's a good idea.

And Voytek, I was expecting some responses like that. Yes, unfortunately the entire SG bully-boy squad will back up the raiders, just like the last two times people threatened to or actually tried to bring them in hand.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='20 July 2010 - 10:53 PM' timestamp='1279630366' post='2380466']And Voytek, I was expecting some responses like that. Yes, unfortunately the entire SG bully-boy squad will back up the raiders, just like the last two times people threatened to or actually tried to bring them in hand.[/quote]
I don't think you fully understand what's happening. A good chunk of the SG bully-boy squad are actively taking part in this; it would stand to reason that they and their blocmates would defend themselves if attacked.

[Pingu]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='20 July 2010 - 08:10 AM' timestamp='1279627810' post='2380433']
Ah, ODN. How far you've come. I expect soon you will announce you've amended your charter to give permission for your nations to raid, as long as it's not against Orange nations.
[/quote]

Oh, Haf, how deep do your wells of bitterness run?

Just as Banksy was, I speak here on a personal basis, not as an official representative of my alliance. But I can say with a high degree of confidence that ODN will never allow its members to raid, on Orange, Red, or elsewhere.

If the red sphere alliances want to set up effective protection for the unaligned in their sphere, then good luck to them. Raiders are a perennial nuisance. But this discussion thread is not what effective protection looks like.

[chefjoe]

Imagine that...im aghast at such actions.


edit- accidently quoted the OP.

Edited July 20, 2010 by chefjoe