Co-Prosperity Sphere Announcement

[Choader]

[quote name='Penkala' date='02 July 2010 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1278122080' post='2358289']
The GPA war [i]was[/i] a war. The Ni raid lasted for two days and reps were paid and an apology was made. It was an actual tech raid. NPO's war on GPA involved use of all weapons available (except nukes; it was a conventional war) and lasted what was it, a month? No reps were paid for damages.
[/quote]
I know, despite Londo taking all the flack I was as responsible for the raid as he was. I was simply pointing out the absurdity of trying to re-brand it as anything other than a raid.

The GPA war might as well have been a raid though for as profitable as it was.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Alterego' date='02 July 2010 - 04:46 PM' timestamp='1278114345' post='2358197']
The idea was a curbstomp. Whenthey realised it would be a close fight they bailed out and waited for a more lopsided fight to come along.[/quote]

You are so woefully incorrect every single time that you post.


[quote name='Penkala' date='02 July 2010 - 04:48 PM' timestamp='1278114498' post='2358199']
No no no, you said we tried to lure all of you into a war to beat you all down, then said we backed off because you were all to strong.
[/quote]

Alterego seems to forget that we declared in the first place despite TPF having several treaties. It isn't like we went in expecting those treaties to be honored. No dear readers, we [b]knew[/b] they'd all wait a week and that was all part of our master plan. Obviously.


[quote name='Bob Janova' date='02 July 2010 - 05:15 PM' timestamp='1278116082' post='2358222'][b](where SG backed down from a close fight)[/b][/quote]

Not even remotely close to accurate, Janova.

[quote name='wickedj' date='02 July 2010 - 06:44 PM' timestamp='1278121463' post='2358278']I mean surely you havent forgotten about all those treaties and blocs with GOD and RoK[/quote]

It is a safe bet that Robert Janova would love to forget that pair of treaties, to be honest.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' date='02 July 2010 - 10:04 PM' timestamp='1278122672' post='2358296']
It is a safe bet that Robert Janova would love to forget that pair of treaties, to be honest.
[/quote]

Actually, there's only a pair of treaties he'd like to [i]remember[/i]. And even then, Brigade is tied to Sparta who is tied to SF/CnG. So really only one treaty Bob wants to remember.


VE Treaties:

[b]GOD MDoAP[/b]
[i]NV MDoAP[/i]
[b]ROK MDoAP[/b]
[i]iFOK MDoAP[/i]
WF MDoAP
[i]Tetris MDoAP[/i]
[b]RIA MDoAP[/b]
Brigade MDoAP
[i]FOK MDoAP[/i]
[i]Umbrella MDoAP[/i]
[i]Kronos MDoAP[/i]

Bolded are direct MDP or higher ties to SF.
Italicized are treaties to alliances with MDoAPs with SF/CnG.

You do realize who your allies are, right Bob?

[Chief Savage Man]

Funny I seem to remember being asked to agree to accept peace with NpO by MK and RoK several times from the beginning to the very end of the conflict.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='02 July 2010 - 07:21 PM' timestamp='1278123678' post='2358307']
Funny I seem to remember being asked to agree to accept peace with NpO by MK and RoK several times from the beginning to the very end of the conflict.
[/quote]


Lies, Chief! We were pushing for WAAAAAR! ...


lol

[Branimir]

[quote name='Penkala' date='03 July 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1278121701' post='2358283']
"What happened to the multi-polar world we were promised?!?!"
*Points to it*
"You're hard to debate with I'm not going to respond."[/quote]

Thanks, a good laugh. But also true. Totally closed persons are hard to debate with, as they are like a wall-- they hear nothing but the sound of their voice, introduced by the propaganda of their side.

As smart person would pick up (from my proverb), I obviously totally am not seeing the multipolar world as very crudely described by you, am not even going to enter a debate of such nonsense-- "multi-poles" (and not just actually bi-poles) you described to exist are just so laughable. In no point since the "karma" war, there truly were a multipolar world "as promised", and while you take that as a slight (I dunno why, what is wrong with it not being?) its actually a common sense dictated political situation. The mechanics brings it to an end result which is always the same.

Just because one does not want to continue debate, be it 'coz its out of topic, or with a person he doesn't feel is worthy of his effort, doesn't mean he feels he has nothing to say to argument his position. "Za pametnog dosta".

Good night. Once again, congratulations on the treaty. It is common sense dictated, nobody can truly blame you for it. But then again, nothing lasts forever, its just I dunno if I am going to be around long enough for when the fun time starts again. Hence, my little back-mind grumble at this.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Branimir

[anenu]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='02 July 2010 - 10:21 PM' timestamp='1278123678' post='2358307']
Funny I seem to remember being asked to agree to accept peace with NpO by MK and RoK several times from the beginning to the very end of the conflict.
[/quote]

shush now we can't let facts get in the way of opinions, after all it can't possibly be that the side that won the war wasn't plotting the entire thing from the very beginning, thats simply not how it is done. I mean the next thing you know people will be saying that SG never meant to be an evil hegemony its just sort of happened.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Penkala' date='02 July 2010 - 10:19 PM' timestamp='1278123523' post='2358305']
You do realize who your allies are, right Bob?
[/quote]
Bob was exactly like this in Grämlins when they were MDPed to NPO. He expresses his opinions in public, regardless of how they may relate to his allies.

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='02 July 2010 - 10:35 PM' timestamp='1278124489' post='2358320']
Bob was exactly like this in Grämlins when they were MDPed to NPO. He expresses his opinions in public, regardless of how they may relate to his allies.
[/quote]

I do respect somebody who goes against the grain but I don't respect people who spout untruths like Bob has started doing lately.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Branimir' date='02 July 2010 - 10:27 PM' timestamp='1278124019' post='2358311']
As smart person would pick up (from my proverb), I obviously totally am not seeing the multipolar world as very crudely described by you, am not even going to enter a debate of such nonsense-- "multi-poles" (and not just actually bi-poles) you described to exist are just so laughable. In no point since the "karma" war, there truly were a multipolar world "as promised", and while you take that as a slight (I dunno why, what is wrong with it not being?) its actually a common sense dictated political situation. The mechanics brings it to an end result which is always the same.
[/quote]

SuperFriends, C&G, Frostbite, Citadel and ex-Hegemony (or Remnants, whatever you want to call them). You could even count LEO, but not many people did so let's pretend they don't exist. That's still five distinct power spheres that were all in competition with each other for a lengthy period between the end of the Karma War (more like half-way through it) and the disbandment of Citadel. War scenarios [i]did[/i] present themselves that would have put SF and C&G on different sides; no two spheres sided together on every single issue. I don't see how you can claim that that period was [i]not[/i] one of multi-polarity.

Vladimir's essay on the matter actually names the same five spheres as me, and acknowledges that a period of multi-polarity existed. Obviously it didn't last forever - nothing does.

[Acca Dacca]

I never expected this treaty...at all

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='02 July 2010 - 03:15 PM' timestamp='1278101714' post='2358011']
The preamble is close enough to the truth that, while still funny, it is a bit uncomfortable. Cementing Supergrievances as a permanent pseudobloc will indeed make you a hegemon.
[/quote]

We are perfectly comfortable with being SuperGrievances.

[quote name='Haflinger' date='02 July 2010 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1278124489' post='2358320']
Bob was exactly like this in Grämlins when they were MDPed to NPO. He expresses his opinions in public, regardless of how they may relate to his allies.
[/quote]

Its not his opinion, its !@#$%^&*ting in public about his allies that is rather annoying.

[Chief Savage Man]

Back on topic, I forgot to congratulate the signatories

I rather like both Athens and CSN and I have mutual friends with both so I'm glad to see this happen.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' date='03 July 2010 - 03:04 AM' timestamp='1278122672' post='2358296']
You are so woefully incorrect every single time that you post.[/quote]
Feel free to say why just dont do it at the end of December if you want a quick response.


[quote]Alterego seems to forget that we declared in the first place despite TPF having several treaties. It isn't like we went in expecting those treaties to be honored. No dear readers, we [b]knew[/b] they'd all wait a week and that was all part of our master plan. Obviously.
[/quote]
You lot made up a rubbish CB and acted at the one time of year a quick counter attack would have been very difficult to arrange. You slagged alliances off for not getting in quick enough and begged them to ge in to the fight. When [ooc]the holidays were coming to an end[ooc]and the attack came it was white peace all around. The timing was strategic and an act of cowardice that was evident with the speed alliances ran away when the DoWs came


@RV, why you complaining? You wanted this.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='18 July 2009 - 11:50 PM' timestamp='1247957383' post='1701241']
[color="#0000FF"]I for one have never said there is a new hegemony. Quite frankly none of you have the balls nor the brains in order to become such a thing. All we have at the moment is a bunch of wannabe superpowers who continuously make fools of themselves with their most recent failed power plays. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. You're all just simply bad at this. If you do, however, ever get the urge to have a competent, ballsy, and handsome leader, do know that I am always open.[/color]
[/quote]

Edited July 3, 2010 by Alterego

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='Alterego' date='03 July 2010 - 03:57 AM' timestamp='1278147444' post='2358581']
You lot made up a rubbish CB and acted at the one time of year a quick counter attack would have been very difficult to arrange. You slagged alliances off for not getting in quick enough and begged them to ge in to the fight. When [ooc]the holidays were coming to an end[ooc]and the attack came it was white peace all around. The timing was strategic and an act of cowardice that was evident with the speed alliances ran away when the DoWs came
[/quote]
The only strategic timing was employed by Zero Hour, who gave Athens the CB.

[Bob Janova]

Ad hominem is not an argument, guys. Yes, I know who VE's allies are, that doesn't mean I instantly like them, just as I didn't like all the alliances of Continuum. (Also, I do like many alliances that are actually in SF and C&G and those that are part of their power spheres. If you want to attach a negative value judgement to becoming a hegemon, feel free.)

And wait, it's 'untruths' and yet "[i]We are perfectly comfortable with being SuperGrievances[/i]"? Get your stories straight, all I said is that you're becoming a hegemon, and if you're comfortable being SG, that isn't an untruth. Unless you're going to try to claim that a stable Supergrievances doesn't have the power to be hegemonic, in which case I will laugh at you and point you to the numbers (particularly with TOP and IRON under terms and therefore out of the game).

Raids are wars.

Penkala, if you're claiming the world was multipolar right up until the collapse of Frostbite and Citadel, then one year from Karma is an even more disingenous time to use for comparison, as by your own words Supergrievances was not in a hegemonic position until December. So in your first three months 'in charge' you started one war and took advantage of another to comprehensively roll your enemies.

[i]OOC: About the 'expanding timescale' thing, this is a common feature of gaming worlds. Things progress much faster at the beginning, and as people and assets settle down and everyone has more to lose, history runs slower. There were more wars in the first three months of the game – Polar and Citrus wars and all that stuff pre-GW1 – than in the last two years. The Unjust War (07) and the BLEU/noCB war (08) lasted around a month and that seemed like a long time; Karma (09) and Bipolar (10) stretched on for months. This is not to do with who is the dominant force at a particular time but just a natural progression from the 'start of history'. And it makes comparing a year in the 'distant past' to a year now not a fair comparison.[/i]

[elpadrino]

Don´t be so afraid of losing pixels, they are just numbers .., imagine if the old WUT and AEGIS would have been 1big block, we would have had years and years of peace except for 5vs1 curbstomps from time to time, compare that to the cold war and the 2nd and 3th global wars..., in a war game having enemies and sides is absolutely necessary

[Xiphosis]

[quote]the TPF war (where SG backed down from a close fight) [/quote]

White peace was offered two days into the war when we realized the CB was no longer valid. The TPF administration stalled on the matter until their side could enter, then mhawk accepted it immediately upon his return. I'm just going to assume you're not intentionally spouting bull.

[Andre27]

I have nothing against Athens or CSN, but i don't like massive blocks and seeing C&G + SF grow even closer saddens me.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]White peace was offered two days into the war when we realized the CB was no longer valid.[/quote]
This isn't the place to be having this discussion (I'm not sure how much of the information is public, apart from anything else), so I'll just say, okay, whatever . Let's amend the listing for that war to 'TPF war: started by SG with an invalid CB'. Isn't that what everyone's so upset about the old Hegemony doing several times?

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Xiphosis' date='03 July 2010 - 10:00 AM' timestamp='1278165612' post='2358656']
White peace was offered two days into the war when we realized the CB was no longer valid. The TPF administration stalled on the matter until their side could enter, then mhawk accepted it immediately upon his return. I'm just going to assume you're not intentionally spouting bull.
[/quote]

The whole TPF Affair was a silly attack that never should have been launched. I'm not saying that plotting during the middle of an extended conflict to plant your members in your enemies alliances is a good idea (indeed it's a sign of desperation at best and at worst sheer stupidity), but so much time had passed as to make Athens' CB questionable just on the face of it and pretty much invalid given any sort of objective analysis. Londo to this day does not think so, but we'll respectfully disagree on that point--and yes I said respectfully.

That said, a number of alliances were stuck stilling on the GO! line waiting for the word to attack (which is why TPF was correct in "stalling" as you call it) but the word never came. It was a very lucky thing for those alliances that attacked TPF. The set up on that war was significantly different than the Karma War or the Bipolar War and did not so radically favor "SuperGrievances". Indeed the way the treaties fell, it was pretty much an even fight.

Miss opportunities can be found throughout Planet Bob history...that one just happened to be one of the bigger ones.

[Der Kommissar]

[color="#FF0000"]This thread is about a treaty between CSN and Athens, if you want to discuss broader global history, start a topic in the World Affairs subforum.
Stay on topic, the next one going off topic will receive a warning.[/color]

[Vyper]

Der Kommissar, you didn't congratulate Athens and CSN in that last post

But anyways, it's good to see CSN getting closer to Athens... May we one day become a whole...

[Vladimir]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='03 July 2010 - 04:31 AM' timestamp='1278127853' post='2358348']Vladimir's essay on the matter actually names the same five spheres as me, and acknowledges that a period of multi-polarity existed. Obviously it didn't last forever - nothing does.[/quote]
I hope that it is acceptable for me to make a short response, since this was brought up while I was away.

Lord Brendan has misrepresented my position (probably not on purpose; it is an easy misunderstanding of the concepts and an easy misreading of what I said). For those interested, [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?app=blog&module=display&section=blog&blogid=104&showentry=1157]this[/url] is the article in question. I will gladly respond to comments posted to the article if clarification is sought.

[wickedj]

[quote name='Vyper' date='03 July 2010 - 11:23 AM' timestamp='1278174170' post='2358715']
Der Kommissar, you didn't congratulate Athens and CSN in that last post

But anyways, it's good to see CSN getting closer to Athens... May we one day become a whole...
[/quote]
This means we're closer to Rush Shouldve added an anti-Rush clause to the treaty

[SpacingOutMan]

This is a good treaty.

Haters gonna hate.