United Purple Nations - Regnum Invictorum Announcement

[Grendel]

[quote name='queenhailee' date='05 June 2010 - 06:46 PM' timestamp='1275777984' post='2325175']
I'm sad to see what this simple announcement has become. The smallest scent of blood and folks jump in to pick at the carnage. I really do understand folks felt betrayed. How and why has been explained over and over since the war. Nothing is to be gained by rehashing it except to put up more walls.

UPN made some mistakes. They readily admit that. I'm guessing if asked, they'll admit that they'll likely make some more.

At the same time, they've been making changes they feel are right to avoid making the same mistakes again. I disagree with some of them, understand most of them. Will it work? Only time will tell. What UPN needs from me (and us) is the chance to right their ship--for us to sit back and give them the space to breathe.

Peggy inherited a hard job. She gets to deal with the fallout of those mistakes even though she opposed the position at the time. Managing the kind of growth they've had can be very difficult. Losing a splinter group of active, involved folks in the middle of all of it doesn't help the situation.

Do I believe the aid UPN sent negated what came before it? No. You can't erase your history. You can only do what you can to atone for it. It's there. The money didn't erase anything, but it was something they [i]could[/i] do. And Invicta did dearly need that money. Re-hashing what happened (on either side) isn't going to change history either. This history can't be erased. All anyone can do in this kind of situation is work their butt off to not repeat mistakes.

UPN cut the only official tie they had to Olympus. I truly don't have a horse in this race. A lot of other folks in the thread don't either. I know I'm ready to stop rehashing the same arguments. It's time for UPN to step up and fix what didn't work and it's time for me to put anger and disappointment on the shelf and give them a chance to do it.
[/quote]

I fully agree.

[Duncan King]

Purqua is truly dead, long live chaos. It was not that long ago that UPN and Invicta were triple MDoAPed to each other, so seeing you with only an ODP between you really is saddening to me.

[Lord Brendan]

Well this topic got ugly in a hurry.

[quote name='abdur' date='05 June 2010 - 04:51 PM' timestamp='1275771067' post='2324922']
The fact that one of their allies attacked another, warranted a DoN. And like I said, hindsight is 20:20.
[/quote]

Which of their allies attacked another?

[quote name='Alterego' date='05 June 2010 - 05:01 PM' timestamp='1275771696' post='2324943']
They spread themselves as wide as possible across the world so in the event of a global war they could choose the bigger side or stay neutral. Its a tactic of cowardice that shows no respect to any treaty partner. If they actually looked at their treaties they would have thought [i]"hey, if there is a big war we are in an impossible position" [/i]Unless in reality they planned their treaties in a cold and calculating manner. They dont have friends just excuses.
[/quote]

Reminds me of a certain blue alliance in the months leading up to the Karma War...

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='05 June 2010 - 06:39 AM' timestamp='1275741542' post='2324466']
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54850
[/quote]

*shrugs*

I don't see how this disproves my point. If anything, it means that ODN understands the difficulties of having conflicting treaties.

UPN, don't feel bad that people are hatin' on you. Like someone wise once said: "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.”

[fluffyewunga]

I find it strange that less then half a story has becone Gospel truth.

Invicta was as much at fault in this as UPN.

[jer]

[quote name='Kalasin' date='06 June 2010 - 12:59 AM' timestamp='1275782368' post='2325319']
Like someone wise once said: "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.”
[/quote]
And as another wise man once said: "The best in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women".

[Lord Levistus]

[quote name='fluffyewunga' date='05 June 2010 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1275782555' post='2325321']
I find it strange that less then half a story has becone Gospel truth.

Invicta was as much at fault in this as UPN.
[/quote]

Please, educate us then. How is this Invicta's fault?

We all know you aren't in the least bit biased towards UPN, of course.

[M6 Redneck]

I always love a treaty cancelation, (or downgrage). This one is special tho.

I love Invicta and it is great to see them shedding the dead wood. It is a pitty they did not cut this one off at the roots however. UPN and Invicta were tight, unfortunately UPN proved to be fair weather friends.

UPN cut off their best friend for a better conected friend. Scum, let me say it again UPN = SCUM.

Much love to Invicta Ursulam or whatever they are called.

Much luck to UPNs new allies, (pro-tip if you have a MDAP with 'em write the M as a circular letter to truely reflect the relationship).

\M/6

[Magister Agricolarum]

[quote name='M6 Redneck' date='05 June 2010 - 08:34 PM' timestamp='1275784446' post='2325363']<words>[/quote]
You're funny.

[abdur]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='05 June 2010 - 07:33 PM' timestamp='1275780800' post='2325282']
Well this topic got ugly in a hurry.



Which of their allies attacked another?
[/quote]
FEAR declared on ODN.

[DarkEra97]

Regardless of who started the downgrade process or why, I am glad to see this treaty finally representing the relations between these alliances. Good call by both of you.

[Haflinger]

Hmmm.

A lot of people seem to think this treaty downgrade was solely the result of disputes over ODN. This isn't the case. There were at least two other alliances being argued about as well.

[DonVox]

The treaty downgrade from MADP to MDoAP reflected the post-war relationship. The downgrade to the ODP was due to different FA orientations.

The downgrade was because the UPN did not want to have the same mistake made regarding the previous war. Hence, that means having less entangled treaties.

[Dexomega]

[quote name='M6 Redneck' date='05 June 2010 - 07:34 PM' timestamp='1275784446' post='2325363']
I always love a treaty cancelation, (or downgrage). This one is special tho.

I love Invicta and it is great to see them shedding the dead wood. It is a pitty they did not cut this one off at the roots however. UPN and Invicta were tight, unfortunately UPN proved to be fair weather friends.

UPN cut off their best friend for a better conected friend. Scum, let me say it again UPN = SCUM.

Much love to Invicta Ursulam or whatever they are called.

Much luck to UPNs new allies, (pro-tip if you have a MDAP with 'em write the M as a circular letter to truely reflect the relationship).

\M/6
[/quote]
You, like many others, are putting UPN to blame. I seem to recall a very similar situation involving treaty disputes that I remember all too well. USN found ourselves in this "Scum" position. We don't enjoy the fact that our paths diverged from our former friends. We truly didn't like it, but it was necessary to grow as an alliance and find our place in the world.

What I'm getting at is, it's necessary to diverge from friends. It doesn't make anyone truly happy, but it's necessary.

Get off your soap box and stop acting like a saint. No one in Cybernations is a saint.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Dexomega

[Dr Doctor]

It's really a shame that the downgrade happened, but I suppose it's for the best. Besides, I liked the style of the old treaty.

o/ Invicta
o/ UPN

[Style #386]

[quote name='Lord Levistus' date='05 June 2010 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1275772286' post='2324974']
well, here's a little something from the "people like you"


You want big evil Valhalla, fine. I'm not going to pull punches. UPN let their closest allies rot because they didn't like the odds. They let their bloc get decimated, because they wanted to be sanctioned.

Now a core group has left them, and they've lost that sanction they never deserved.
Now their closest ally is the Optional Defense Network.

Rather fitting if i may say so myself.
[/quote]
You're going to have to try harder than that.

[quote name='Lord Levistus' date='05 June 2010 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1275773271' post='2325016']
oh, hate is such the wrong word. I hold them in contempt. That's completely different.

There was NOTHING stopping you from helping on Invicta's front. You can twist and turn it however you will, but that's a fact. The Purple front had little to do with the TOP vs C&G front. FAN took the opportunity to attack Valhalla's MDoAP partner. Valhalla was obligated to respond. DT and Nor responded against Valhalla, one also had no treaty claims for involvement. THAT brought in Poseidon. Then iFOK through one of the most historic reaches of treaty chaining ever seen hit your closest ally, Invicta.

Throwing a little cash their way after they ate nukes for 2 weeks is hardly honouring the relationship the two AA's had held previously.

And here, I'll quote Altheus' explanation behind that quote, it makes no difference.
..as you see, it doesn't change the meaning at all. If faced with an overwhelming force, UPN wouldn't go. They would sit on the sidelines and eat popcorn.

If i was spreading rumour and conjecture, i would be talking about how UPN's "neutrality" was a request by ODN to keep UPN out of the purple front.
[/quote]
Luckily you're not, because you'd be an idiot otherwise. Here's a fast fact for you: UPN should have defended ODN immediately, thereby bringing Invicta and friends over to C&G's side. I requested UPN's assistance, and was, to put it simply, infuriated when they ultimately decided to go neutral. The nature of the attack makes the necessity of their defense a matter of black and white. The rest of you don't get the right to be pissed off. Against my better judgment, the ODN went on to forgive UPN, as is the ODN's right and not CDT's. CDT should count themselves lucky that UPN went neutral. Alternatively, I suppose they could be pissed off that UPN's inaction led to their entry on the other side and to CDT's eventual defeat. I am sure that they would not be concerned over such trivialties, though.

[quote name='Lord Levistus' date='05 June 2010 - 05:35 PM' timestamp='1275773741' post='2325020']
You keep screaming out of context, out of context, but that's just not true. UPN and BAPS were talking about how and why they would enter wars. This is the subject of the conversation, and that line summarizes Altheus' stance.

ODN has been a joke for so long it isn't funny, it's few and far between that would consider it a "compliment" that ODN is their closest ally. Frankly i'm shocked they were accepted into C&G, but at least there they may be held to honour their treaties.
[/quote]
Who are you? I guess we must have pissed in your wheaties some time in the past. I'd apologize but you might hold that against me too.

[Lord Fingolfin]

Hmmm. I'd like to just briefly note to many people that Altheus was the one calling the shorts during the 2nd Unjust War. I vehemently disliked Altheus. At the time I was about ready to strangle him, particularly when I went to him to activate the Legion-UPN chaining MDoAP. But anyways, PeggySue is the current Chancellor/Leader of UPN, and hence it is very foolish in my opinion to cast the same judgements and complaints against UPN. Whats done is done, and the current person in charge wasn't the one who initiated the actions that you all are railing against. To use an OOC parallel, it would be similar to [ooc] someone critisizing the United States and Barack Obama for starting the Iraq War, when Barack actually had nothing to do with starting the war, voted against the war, and the war was started by his predecessor [ooc]. UPN was on my !@#$ list, but my opinion changed as PeggySue came into power, similar to NpO with the transition from Grub to Penguin. You can't hold a present leader responsible for actions not there own, and its moronic to cast generalizations about an alliance for a past leaders actions. Anyways, continue bickering

[Lukcia]

[quote name='Lord Levistus' date='06 June 2010 - 01:26 AM' timestamp='1275784001' post='2325352']
We all know you aren't in the least bit biased towards UPN, of course.
[/quote]
And we all know you are not the least bit completely and utterly bias against UPN hoping they burn in a hole.

I think this is an argument which will continue forever and will only prove one thing. The term "purplol" is actually very true as some alliances in Purple seem incapable of getting along and would rather actively try to rip the sphere apart than become friends. Purple is a colour I advise most new alliances to avoid.

[President S O]

[quote name='Lukcia' date='06 June 2010 - 08:27 PM' timestamp='1275820057' post='2326122']
And we all know you are not the least bit completely and utterly bias against UPN hoping they burn in a hole.

I think this is an argument which will continue forever and will only prove one thing. The term "purplol" is actually very true as [i][b]some alliances in Purple seem incapable of getting along[/b][/i] and would rather actively try to rip the sphere apart than become friends. Purple is a colour I advise most new alliances to avoid.
[/quote]

Thanks for playing your part, that is up until you abandoned the UPN for something "better".

EDIT: Be appropriate.

Edited June 6, 2010 by President S O

[ProdigyNL]

I think its time for a big hug with all the people that posted in the last 5 pages!

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Style #386' date='06 June 2010 - 01:18 AM' timestamp='1275801507' post='2325883']
Luckily you're not, because you'd be an idiot otherwise. Here's a fast fact for you: UPN should have defended ODN immediately, thereby bringing Invicta and friends over to C&G's side. I requested UPN's assistance, and was, to put it simply, infuriated when they ultimately decided to go neutral. The nature of the attack makes the necessity of their defense a matter of black and white. The rest of you don't get the right to be pissed off. Against my better judgment, the ODN went on to forgive UPN, as is the ODN's right and not CDT's. CDT should count themselves lucky that UPN went neutral. Alternatively, I suppose they could be pissed off that UPN's inaction led to their entry on the other side and to CDT's eventual defeat. I am sure that they would not be concerned over such trivialties, though.
[/quote]
Just a note. If you check the threads at the time, you will find that I was certainly in favour of us entering against certain specific targets.

We weren't good with leaving our other allies to fry either though. UPN was. That's why we have an ODP now.

However, you really ought to read Purple Haze. The supremacy clause in it overrided all of UPN's other treaties, including the one they had with you. I know you don't like to read treaties, but now might be a good time to start.

[itseZe]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='06 June 2010 - 10:58 AM' timestamp='1275836314' post='2326288']
However, you really ought to read Purple Haze. The supremacy clause in it overrided all of UPN's other treaties, including the one they had with you. I know you don't like to read treaties, but now might be a good time to start.
[/quote]
This part?
[quote]UPN & Invicta stick together. That's the bottom line. If any external treaty conflicts arise we'll make sure we're on the same side. [/quote]
Because all it does is make his argument stronger. If they followed the legal situation exactly as the treaties were written, they'd have to active our MD and you'd have to follow, because none of your treaties were activated yet.
Not saying that is what should/shouldn't have happened, but I think you would prefer what actually ended up happening over this.

[Magister Agricolarum]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='06 June 2010 - 10:58 AM' timestamp='1275836314' post='2326288']We weren't good with leaving our other allies to fry either though. UPN was. That's why we have an ODP now.[/quote]
Are you [i]sure[/i] that you want to take this road?

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Magister Agricolarum' date='06 June 2010 - 12:04 PM' timestamp='1275840240' post='2326337']
Are you [i]sure[/i] that you want to take this road?
[/quote]
Mag, you haven't been in UPN for a while. It's changed since when you were here.

[Magister Agricolarum]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='06 June 2010 - 12:09 PM' timestamp='1275840566' post='2326342']Mag, you haven't been in UPN for a while. It's changed since when you were here.[/quote]
That's unrelated to my point, and you're too intelligent not to realize that.