A Joint Announcement by the Orange Defense Network and Sparta

[Shinpah]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='04 May 2010 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1273002739' post='2286641']
It means "you as well" or "you too", and while its a type of ad hominem, the term is used when someone says something ironically that also applies to themselves and uses it as a base to say that the other person doesn't have a claim. Notwithstanding opinions of the facts, he used the term correctly.

(also, the terms ad hominem, draconian, sovereignty, and paradigm should all be banned from this planet)
[/quote]

Unfortunately for Olaf, it's still a logical fallacy

Also hi Olaf

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='04 May 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1273002483' post='2286639']
First of all, I said Tu Quoque, not Ad Hominem. Might want to put on your spectacles, granny.

Second, it's 'your' not 'you're'. You're = You Are. So unless we're arguing about "my are character"...

Third, even if I had argumed Ad Hominem, I'd still be right because you did directly attack me.
[/quote]

My point proven. You know nothing about making arguments. If you had studied your logical fallacies, you would realize that Tu Quoque is a type of fallacy that is derived from an ad hominem. And I apologize for my bad spelling. Yes we are talking about your character. That was the original argument. I am directly attacking you, but that doesn't make it an ad hominem because of the points that I have explained. Did you just get out of Logic 101 or something?

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Jrenster' date='04 May 2010 - 02:56 PM' timestamp='1273002943' post='2286649']
My point proven. You know nothing about making arguments. If you had studied your logical fallacies, you would realize that Tu Quoque is a type of fallacy that is derived from an ad hominem. And I apologize for my bad spelling. Yes we are talking about your character. That was the original argument. I am directly attacking you, but that doesn't make it an ad hominem because of the points that I have explained. Did you just get out of Logic 101 or something?
[/quote]

Refer to II Impero Romano's post.

Also, [i]Tu Quoque[/i].

Edit: HI SHINPAH!

Edited May 4, 2010 by Olaf Styke

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='04 May 2010 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1273002739' post='2286641']
It means "you as well" or "you too", and while its a type of ad hominem, the term is used when someone says something ironically that also applies to themselves and uses it as a base to say that the other person doesn't have a claim. Notwithstanding opinions of the facts, he used the term correctly.

(also, the terms ad hominem, draconian, sovereignty, and paradigm should all be banned from this planet)
[/quote]

I was actually attempting to figure out what he was talking about. I assumed he was accusing me of making a fallacy, because tu quoque refers to the actual fallacy. If he wanted to say "No u", he might as well have just said that and would've proven my point faster.

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Jrenster' date='04 May 2010 - 02:59 PM' timestamp='1273003134' post='2286655']
I was actually attempting to figure out what he was talking about. I assumed he was accusing me of making a fallacy, because tu quoque refers to the actual fallacy. If he wanted to say "No u", he might as well have just said that and would've proven my point faster.
[/quote]

What point? That the only argument you can make that 'Sparta sucks' is that you don't like me, and that you're just as capable of logical fallacy as I am? Point proven.

[Lord Fingolfin]

NSO is a cowardly back stabbing alliance? Do you even think before you post? People can have a dislike for NSO and disagree with them, but nobody with eyes and a brain can make those moronic claims. They were the ones back stabbed, and they laid their alliance on the line, and put their money where their mouth was.

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='04 May 2010 - 03:33 PM' timestamp='1273001587' post='2286615']
Projecting, much? Coming from NSO, I can only ROFL.
[/quote]
I'm seen some nice people in Sparta, and talked with them. Do them a favor and stop bringing that good image down. You don't speak like a King of Sparta.

Sparta and ODN, good luck. And have fun.

[supercoolyellow]

Olaf you're the leader of Sparta?

Oh dear

Your posting on this announcement has already diminished my already low view of Sparta, I would think you guys would want to improve your image, not embrace your past characteristics.

Edited May 4, 2010 by supercoolyellow

[Hymenbreach]

If you are accosted by someone (you think) is a fool, and you try to be a bigger fool then you've missed the point, somewhat.

Still, enjoying Spartan Leaders trying to play the 'we don't care what you think' card. It's destroying what little respect the neutral gallery had for Sparta. Carry on. I'm not going to stop you.

Edit: ODN, these are your [i][b]friends??[/i][/b] Really?

Edited May 4, 2010 by Hymenbreach

[itida]

[quote name='unpronounced' date='04 May 2010 - 07:58 AM' timestamp='1272981467' post='2286362']
You guys realize you just add more confusion to the treaty web, don't you?

Seriously: Good to see Sparta and ODN, (both good friends of MHA), sign an MDoAP.

(And why is Itida's name there?)
[/quote]
because i'm that

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='04 May 2010 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1273003560' post='2286660']
What point? That the only argument you can make that 'Sparta sucks' is that you don't like me, and that you're just as capable of logical fallacy as I am? Point proven.
[/quote]

You misunderstand me. I don't hate you. When the Sith hate someone, that person better be worthy of it. It should be considered an honor to be hated by the Sith because that means you've done something competent to create such animosity. For me, hate comes with respect. You, however, do not fit into that criterion.

And yes, my only argument is that Sparta is a bad alliance because it is led by bad leadership.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' date='04 May 2010 - 04:19 PM' timestamp='1273004338' post='2286676']
Olaf you're the leader of Sparta?

Oh dear

Your posting on this announcement has already diminished my already low view of Sparta, I would think you guys would want to improve your image, not embrace your past characteristics.
[/quote]

There is no way that guy is a leader of any alliance. Sparta has never been very good at war or diplomacy but, even they would not let that guy lead anything. I am guessing it must be a joke. If not ODN is most likely kicking themselves at this point.

Edited May 4, 2010 by The Big Bad

[Seth Muscarella]

I could vouch for Olaf's character and strong leadership skills, as well as previous experience, but I find it much more hilarious to let this conversation continue in the way it's been going

I mean seriously, when The Big Bad is bashing something that Olaf actually wanted him to bash, how much better can things get?

Edited May 4, 2010 by Seth Muscarella

[Olaf Styke]

Yes, I'm a terrible King for pointing out everyone's hypocracy. I don't sit back and just take all this !@#$%^&* criticism that the bottom-feeders of CN decided to regurgitate in to a celebratory thread, therefore I'm a disgrace. Naturally it makes no difference to you what any of your ilk have resorted to in order to provoke my mockery and sarcasm, you obviously can't be held to standards of any kind, lest you consistently fall short, but I would have expected a bit better. At least up until now it has been an exchange, largely, of witticisms. But this is just sad. You've gone from flaming Sparta, unsuccessfully, to attacking me because I won't let you get away with it. Tell me, if everyone has such a low opinion of Sparta already, how can I be a disappointment? Far be it from me to point out your startling inconsistencies on virtually every point (and at this point I'm addressing everyone who has come in to this thread aiming to put Sparta down), but I should think that calling me a disgrace to Sparta--AT LEAST--should reflect a similar internal criticism that you--ALL OF YOU--are disgraces to your respective alliances for having engaged in such petty sniping and argumentation when it clearly hasn't been called for. This is, after all, merely a notification of a binding agreement between ODN and Sparta, and one fails to see how it could possibly merit the kind of petty, shameless attacks it has drawn.

There is a reason I rarely post on the Open World Forums, and that those who know me, know me via embassy, or IRC, or Skype, or just by PM. It is because the general public of Cybernations cannot be trusted to see past their own petty personal bias against one alliance or another to actually sit down and have a nice, simple, rational debate between persons or factions of opposing views or interests. It is because people like YOU are the predominant posters, people who would rather stubbornly maintain the most fallacy-riddled argument just to irritate your opponents, that CN can't be a forum for debate of any meaningful kind, and why diplomacy is best left to personal interactions between leaders. Your shameful conduct as a class in CN is what keeps me from presenting any real arguments to one effect or another, because I know my delicate sentance structure and intricate verbiage are a waste when none of the arguments will be considered, the post will hardly be skimmed, and it will undoubtedly attract a two line response that can be best summed up as "NO U!", or "You're a retard". If I thought anyone here was capable of putting aside their ego I'd talk openly and plainly, but I have no faith in this forum as a forum for debates in good faith. You leave me with one option, and that option is simply to abandon any hope of convincing the general public of my or my alliance's good hearts and good intentions, and play the lowest common denominator (you) by responding in kind to every ill-conceived accusation and insult.

I'm a disgrace to Sparta? Why don't you ask Sparta. That's the one source you consistently refuse to consult.

In the mean time, and until this forum becomes anything other than a cespool--bound to infect all those in contact, I will remain scarce, and I will crop up only to return fire when Sparta is being unjustly and unreasonably attacked.

As far as RV, Fingolfin, Jrenster, Damasky, The Big Bad, Bob Janova, Supercoolyellow and the rest of our bridge-dwelling friends are concerned, I think I've proven my point as far as your lack of credibility and respect are concerned (if you haven't proven it yourself already). The fact that I've managed to change your argument from a revisionist historical argument about Sparta and her allies, to hating on me personally and attempting to extrapolate from that that Sparta is a terrible alliance pretty much proves that you're out to get us one way or another, and that you're not actually making the argument because it might be valid, but because it's a means to an end, and that end is deprecating Sparta in front of all of Cybernations.

That being said, and my purpose here having been fulfilled, I leave.

Until next time, gentlemen, I bid you adieu.

Remember, if you ever have need of a good tongue lashing, you need only make petty, vicious, and outlandish accusations about Sparta, and I shall appear as if by magic to knock you down a peg.

Yours with love,
-Olaf Styke, King of Sparta
[i]
Auf wiedersehen[/i]

Edited May 4, 2010 by Olaf Styke

[Unholy]

Alright, well, I suppose I'll see exactly whether or not a discussion is what you seek.

April 20th, 2009 was the date that Sparta canceled her treaty with NPO, and we had announced our withdrawal from The Continuum two days prior. That just so happened to be near the time of Karma. Contrary to the seemingly popular view of Sparta being evil and plotting to take out NPO, well, to be frank that's not what happened at all. For months before our opinion, which was somewhere between good and bad, of the NPO had been declining. Cancellation was far from out of the question, and was probably going to happen in a short amount of time. However, when Pre-Karma and Karma tensions started building, Sparta felt no desire to fight and sacrifice for an alliance we frankly had no desire to be friends with anymore. The public didn't like the treaty, the gov didn't like the treaty. Essentially, we felt valued not as an ally, but a political tool. Which is essentially the truth.
When NPO attacked OV, we were tied to both sides. We had one of our strongest allies, who is still a strong ally to this day, obligated by treaty to defend OV. We were stuck trying to choose between an aggressor we were tied to but not truly allies with or a friend who had no choice but to honor a treaty with one of their friends. We chose to defend our ally rather than fight with the aggressor and ultimately drag our allies into the conflict. Our war against NPO was to defend our allies, quite simply.

So, in this instance, we didn't abandon a friend. We cut an outdated treaty because we knew NPO's path and ours were not going to work together in the long run, we had no reason to lead our alliance to ruin on a piece of paper tying us to an alliance we no longer felt attached to.

So, if any of you are interested in the facts we've to present, here they are. Out in the open, ready for anyone to read. If you actually read these facts, and care, well good for you. If not, it's as I suspected, you aren't interested in a discussion. Just bashing Sparta as much as you can.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote]As far as RV, Fingolfin, Jrenster, Damasky, The Big Bad and the rest of our bridge-dwelling friends are concerned, I think I've proven my point as far as your lack of credibility and respect are concerned (if you haven't proven it yourself already).[/quote]

I find this group to largely have a good deal of credibility even if they have a habit of ticking off the other side of the treaty web, but then again I don't think you've proven their point, and I also think you have epitomized this, in this topic,

[quote]people who would rather stubbornly maintain the most fallacy-riddled argument just to irritate your opponents, that CN can't be a forum for debate of any meaningful kind, and why diplomacy is best left to personal interactions between leaders.[/quote]

You could have simply explained Sparta's actions in the past. Anyone here who is worth their salt has done enough to make mistakes and is willing to look past them. Instead you suck with the argument, you're all retards, hurr durr. That's typically not an argument I like to make.



PS. Ask Unholy how its, done, or just let him do the rest of the posting for this topic.

Also Unholy, from what I hear Sparta had a list of real and fake allies, and that MCXA once had a treaty with you that you considered "fake". What is that all about?

Edited May 4, 2010 by supercoolyellow

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='04 May 2010 - 03:11 PM' timestamp='1273000275' post='2286593']
I !@#$ wizards.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]For all of you chiding me for being mean, for having an ego, and for generally acting like I am better than some people, this is for you. As you can see, this is the type of person I am arguing with. I really fail to see why I should treat this person as an equal when he clearly is not.

Also, Olaf, in regards to your last post. The tears are delicious. I seem to have struck a nerve.[/color]

[quote name='Unholy' date='04 May 2010 - 05:09 PM' timestamp='1273007344' post='2286727']
Alright, well, I suppose I'll see exactly whether or not a discussion is what you seek.

April 20th, 2009 was the date that Sparta canceled her treaty with NPO, and we had announced our withdrawal from The Continuum two days prior. That just so happened to be near the time of Karma. Contrary to the seemingly popular view of Sparta being evil and plotting to take out NPO, well, to be frank that's not what happened at all. For months before our opinion, which was somewhere between good and bad, of the NPO had been declining. Cancellation was far from out of the question, and was probably going to happen in a short amount of time. However, when Pre-Karma and Karma tensions started building, Sparta felt no desire to fight and sacrifice for an alliance we frankly had no desire to be friends with anymore. The public didn't like the treaty, the gov didn't like the treaty. Essentially, we felt valued not as an ally, but a political tool. Which is essentially the truth.
When NPO attacked OV, we were tied to both sides. We had one of our strongest allies, who is still a strong ally to this day, obligated by treaty to defend OV. We were stuck trying to choose between an aggressor we were tied to but not truly allies with or a friend who had no choice but to honor a treaty with one of their friends. We chose to defend our ally rather than fight with the aggressor and ultimately drag our allies into the conflict. Our war against NPO was to defend our allies, quite simply.

So, in this instance, we didn't abandon a friend. We cut an outdated treaty because we knew NPO's path and ours were not going to work together in the long run, we had no reason to lead our alliance to ruin on a piece of paper tying us to an alliance we no longer felt attached to.

So, if any of you are interested in the facts we've to present, here they are. Out in the open, ready for anyone to read. If you actually read these facts, and care, well good for you. If not, it's as I suspected, you aren't interested in a discussion. Just bashing Sparta as much as you can.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Finally, someone addresses one of the betrayals I was talking about instead of skirting around it. And while I do see what you're saying, to me it really just sounds like an excuse. Your cancellation was timed. You waited until the last moment. Of course, I cannot hold that against you personally, since you were by no means the only one guilty of canceling on the NPO at the eve of the war. RoK, FOK, VE, and many others are guilty of the same. Only Gremlins canceled well ahead of time. Still doesn't make the action any less cowardly so far as I am concerned.

And I do believe you will say that in regards to your bailing on Polar that is was a result of treaty conflict? Tell me, if you are once again placed in a situation where treaties conflict, how will Sparta handle it? Will you turn on the ally who needs you most and let the dogs have them as you did to Polar?[/color]

[Bob Janova]

Unholy, thanks for at least trying to engage in the discussion instead of Olaf's half page 'NO U', and bail out some of Sparta's reputation.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='04 May 2010 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1273008027' post='2286746']
Unholy, thanks for at least trying to engage in the discussion instead of Olaf's half page 'NO U', and bail out some of Sparta's reputation.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Yes, I do appreciate it as well.

Anyway, Olaf, I finally finished reading your whining, and it appears you say people have dropped the history argument. No. That's not true. It was still being made by people, notably me, but others came in to take digs at you for the sole reason that you displayed a profound immaturity. They clearly could not pass up the opportunity. Really, you can't hold that against people when you have pretty much opened the door for the attacks by conducting yourself the way you did here.[/color]

[wickedj]

This looks like a potato announcement, someone has been outsourcing

[flak attack]

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' date='04 May 2010 - 04:09 PM' timestamp='1273003725' post='2286664']
NSO is a cowardly back stabbing alliance? Do you even think before you post? People can have a dislike for NSO and disagree with them, but nobody with eyes and a brain can make those moronic claims. They were the ones back stabbed, and they laid their alliance on the line, and put their money where their mouth was.
[/quote]
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=77422&st=0

Come again?

[Jack Diorno]

This is a good treaty.
It's nice to see people are still butthurt about events that happened when continuum was breaking up as well, when was that?

A year ago?

.....

[D34th]

A poor excuse is better than no excuse at all.

[Unholy]

This argument will be slightly less comprehensive than the last, I'm afraid, since this incident was before my time.

Essentially, as I understand it, we had no intentions of alienating all of the other friends we'd ever made by aiding Polar. Though most of our membership had nothing against Polar, we had more and stronger friends on the other side, and that was the choice our government made at the time. Whether it was a mistake, I cannot say.

How Sparta would deal with another such conflict? Well, I can't speak for the rest of our gov, but I can tell you I'd never like to see any of our allies on the opposite side as us, but ultimately, I'm also a realist. It's going to happen eventually, and we'll stick with our best friends, whatever side they may find themselves on.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Unholy

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='flak attack' date='04 May 2010 - 05:34 PM' timestamp='1273008859' post='2286767']
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=77422&st=0

Come again?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]That treaty was in the works for months. And can you really blame the NSO for not joining your side? As Master of Lies I did try to work to mend relations with several of your alliances and was met with hostility. You guys were working actively to roll the NSO. You cannot honestly say that the NSO is to blame here.[/color]