A Joint Announcement by the Orange Defense Network and Sparta

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 May 2010 - 08:25 PM' timestamp='1273019140' post='2286999']2. I can concede that, however (I looked it up) and they list it as a victory on their wiki. Either way, they didn't appear to mind it.
[/quote]
It lists it as a "Coalition Victory", which it was.

[Ashok]

[quote]That said, while neither Sparta nor ODN have perfect records, they are hardly in the top ranks of infamy either, as I see it. It is ludicrous to claim that one cannot criticise past actions, [b]but it is also silly not to take into account behaviour since[/b], and on that account they are head and shoulders ahead of many who now presume to cast stones at them. The irony is rich and earthy to the nostrils.[/quote]

The bolded part makes me laugh extremely Only reason they are considered better is because they fought with Karma. It is hard to determine who is on the morally right side and the morally wrong side when one of those sides is in power. Just my two cents though

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='04 May 2010 - 06:17 PM' timestamp='1273011438' post='2286831']
We've long ago sought forgiveness from the alliances we harmed during that time, and many are now friends. Personally, I welcome the "hegemony side" to bring us to justice for the crimes they also committed, since they are the ones constantly whining about it after the alliances that SHOULD be wanting revenge have already moved on.
[/quote]
And yet, you continue to support sanction abuse.

This is actually my main beef about Sparta. I mean, you guys sanctioned Syrik even when I specifically asked you not to.

[Bob]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 May 2010 - 07:34 PM' timestamp='1273016081' post='2286936']
Okay...

[url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=33384]Click[/url]
[url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=31544]Click[/url]

Just a few off the top of my head.
[/quote]
They forgave GR over 500 tech worth of reps IIRC.

Not that I would know or anything..

Congrats (again?) to all my friends in ODN, and those who I know in Sparta. You may have troubled lives, but I know of the efforts you make.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Penlugue Solaris

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' date='04 May 2010 - 11:29 PM' timestamp='1273030148' post='2287253']
They forgave GR over 500 tech worth of reps IIRC.
[/quote]
500 tech?

lol

We forgave SOLID 1800 tech.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='04 May 2010 - 11:31 PM' timestamp='1273030278' post='2287258']
500 tech?

lol

We forgave SOLID 1800 tech.
[/quote]
There wasn't even that much total for Sparta to forgive. 500 was half the amount in the surrender, which basically means Sparta probably said "you know what? Go ahead and keep it" three or so days after the surrender. Not that 500 tech is a lot, but hey, every little bit helps.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='flak attack' date='04 May 2010 - 11:49 PM' timestamp='1273031333' post='2287282']
There wasn't even that much total for Sparta to forgive. 500 was half the amount in the surrender, which basically means Sparta probably said "you know what? Go ahead and keep it" three or so days after the surrender. Not that 500 tech is a lot, but hey, every little bit helps.
[/quote]
Well, that's something, and that makes them ... about as good as us at least. We got 2100 (Invicta government wasn't represented at the peace talks), and thought that was too high, and marked it down to 300.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' date='04 May 2010 - 08:29 PM' timestamp='1273030148' post='2287253']
They forgave GR over 500 tech worth of reps IIRC.

Not that I would know or anything..
[/quote]

I'm not saying you wouldn't; I'd say it's a good thing Sparta did that.

However, I don't think its possible to make the argument that Sparta never benefited for being a member of Q .

[commander thrawn]

[quote name='Ashok' date='05 May 2010 - 04:15 AM' timestamp='1273029299' post='2287242']
It is hard to determine who is on the morally right side and the morally wrong side when one of those sides is in power. Just my two cents though
[/quote]

That's cause there probably is no morally right side in this case. Both are deadset on controlling the game, they seek authority over others.

[Tulak Hord]

[quote name='The Big Bad' date='05 May 2010 - 10:48 AM' timestamp='1273009681' post='2286797']
So let me get this straight your plan to get people to forget Sparta has a long history of turning on allies, poor war performances and demands for reps they did not earn.[/quote]

You're truly special. Really now, keep posting just for my sake. I love you in ways nobody can understand you beastly man beast. Oh, and reps? We only accepted any real reps last war actually, and that's because Legion/TOOL "defended" an aggressive and unwarranted war in order to attack us. Harsh terms over a long period of time, ha.

[quote name='Jrenster' date='05 May 2010 - 11:17 AM' timestamp='1273011435' post='2286830']Purges and the like help, but goes little in showing people that you have changed. And after having that little spat with one of your leaders, I remain ever more doubtful of your claim. But time will tell.
[/quote]

Fighting for our allies in the two hardest wars known to CN is sure asking a lot in terms of change. However, detractors will be detractors.

[quote name='WorldConqueror' date='05 May 2010 - 11:53 AM' timestamp='1273013615' post='2286884']
Your reasons don't justify your actions. If that is how you felt then you should have acted upon it sooner, instead of putting up a facade of friendship and continuing support only to say 'oh no, we actually hate you guys, so we are gunna cancel our treaty and attack you now, lol.'[/quote]

One look on your forums and you could see a full history of what occurred. We were very open in the Q&A during and after the war. Needless to say, the NPO and half of Q were not friends for a long, long time. I personally apologise to the sycophants in wasting your time trying to actually mend the friendships once held, before your betrayals in Karma. Oh wait, you didn't want them mended, that's right. You got what you wanted, only the opposite result. And lets not appreciate the months of harassment to our still current allies before that either. o/ Hegemony mirite?

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' date='05 May 2010 - 11:27 AM' timestamp='1273012043' post='2286841']
I'm flattered to be included in Olaf's list of bottom dwellers. Although, I must say your predecessor did it a lot better. I'd have to go through my logs on [ooc]my home computer[/ooc], but I think Tulak threatened me with ZI, and called me a bottom feeding cockroach who would prostrate myself before him, after I walked out of Legion-Sparta peace talks.[/quote]

Olafs assessment of you is generous. Also, you mean how I said you better be prepared with the results of refusing our initial surrender terms, correct? I challenge you to bring up where I called you a cockroach.

[quote name='Haflinger' date='05 May 2010 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1273029884' post='2287250']
And yet, you continue to support sanction abuse.
[/quote]
If they're against you, RV or that other numbnutted twit whose name is escaping me(It's never far away from you two, it'll come) right now I'd support them too.

[King Louis the II]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' date='04 May 2010 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1273021269' post='2287058']
That said, while neither Sparta nor ODN have perfect records, they are hardly in the top ranks of infamy either, as I see it. It is ludicrous to claim that one cannot criticise past actions, but it is also silly not to take into account behaviour since, and on that account they are head and shoulders ahead of many who now presume to cast stones at them. The irony is rich and earthy to the nostrils.
[/quote]


Wise words....It is funny to see that are always the same people/alliances that crash into a thread that is celebrating something to create confusion and agressive discussions.

As I mentioned before, Sparta will always defend their allies. And now we are very proud to have ODN among them.

[Haflinger]

edit: mod warning.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Haflinger

[Cataduanes]

jeez man where is all the ODN hate? we are beginning to feel left out

[Ian Dox]

Nothing but love, man

[Bob Janova]

See Olaf, Unholy gets it ... he's mostly using the 'Yes we made mistakes but we have learnt from them' defence and it makes Sparta look a lot better than extended no u posts. The mistake was to be so paranoid of the NPO/hegemony that you kept treaties with them (NPO and TPF if I remember right) simply because you thought you would be rolled without them – something which the non-rolling of Grämlins and FOK should have showed you was unfounded. Not that Sparta is the only alliance guilty of that, by a long chalk; pretty much the entire SF sphere had MDP treaties with NPO until right up to the eve of Karma, so some people need to fix their glass houses from all those stones they were chucking.

As for why this treaty is attracting the critics, C&G/SG is the new centre of global power and that means your moves will be scrutinised and criticised more than anyone else's. TOP and TSO just got rolled and are under terms, and MHA are not politically active. If you align yourself with the mega-cluster of the day, you need to learn how to take criticism for your moves gracefully.

[Cataduanes]

Granted one must take into account ones past, we in ODN have constantly reminded ourselves of the past screw-ups made by our alliance and we have worked hard to never forget to valuable lessons we have had to learn the hard way. That said it can get rather frustrating having to swallow !@#$ constantly, and i know all too well how it feels to want to scream at the detractors, especially those detractors who seem to vent nothing but vitriol no matter what you do.

ODN and Sparta certainly have alot to prove to some of you out there on planet bob, and all either of us can do is prepare for an opportunity in which we can show the depth of real change in both our communities. I for one have faith that Sparta will stand firm when that time comes, as will ODN, no matter the odds

Edited May 5, 2010 by Cataduanes

[Hymenbreach]

Not much ODN bashing going in here, really, Cata. Despite the company you're keeping, you've publicly stated you are trying to change - even if, imo, you're doing it badly.

We need to see that from Sparta and then, over time, the sharpness will blunt. On the other hand, reputations are harder to kill than vampires.

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' date='05 May 2010 - 05:31 PM' timestamp='1273077074' post='2287727']
On the other hand, reputations are harder to kill than vampires.
[/quote]
Tell me about it

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='05 May 2010 - 09:34 AM' timestamp='1273066478' post='2287612']
See Olaf, Unholy gets it ... he's mostly using the 'Yes we made mistakes but we have learnt from them' defence and it makes Sparta look a lot better than extended no u posts. The mistake was to be so paranoid of the NPO/hegemony that you kept treaties with them (NPO and TPF if I remember right) simply because you thought you would be rolled without them – something which the non-rolling of Grämlins and FOK should have showed you was unfounded. Not that Sparta is the only alliance guilty of that, by a long chalk; pretty much the entire SF sphere had MDP treaties with NPO until right up to the eve of Karma, so some people need to fix their glass houses from all those stones they were chucking.[/quote]
Call me paranoid, but if NPO can roll Polar, I'm sure they wouldn't blink while they crashed over us. Maybe we postponed the inevitable, I'm sure plenty of others would like to see us crash and burn. When you are stepping on eggshells around your own allies, something is wrong.

That treaty was dead long before we canceled it, and their unnecessary aggression against Ordo Verde was the straw that broke the camels back. This is the point my predecessor was making when he said "We were on the Karma side before it happened" but like I said, he tried to make a lolemotional statement and it got torn apart.

If NPO thought we'd support their aggression after they had thoroughly disrespected and mistreated us, (anyone who has held a treaty with NPO while preferring not to stay on their knees can attest to this treatment, I'm sure.) I'm not surprised they are so shocked it didn't work out in their favor. We may have supported them when they performed other nefarious acts, but let's chalk that up to a sense of dedication to our allies, as well as a sense of debt to NPO because they did help us significantly when we started out. However, just because Big Brother taught us to read, it doesn't mean we have to keep taking the hits after he's dragged us through the !@#$ more than once.

[quote]As for why this treaty is attracting the critics, C&G/SG is the new centre of global power and that means your moves will be scrutinised and criticised more than anyone else's. TOP and TSO just got rolled and are under terms, and MHA are not politically active. If you align yourself with the mega-cluster of the day, you need to learn how to take criticism for your moves gracefully.
[/quote]
While I can agree with you on this point, I'm sure this is stemming from the misconception that Olaf cares about what anyone thinks.

To elaborate; We don't care about the peanut gallery - you can hate us all you want, it's nothing new to us - as long as our allies and friends respect us, I'm a happy camper.

[quote name='Hymenbreach' date='05 May 2010 - 12:31 PM' timestamp='1273077074' post='2287727']We need to see that from Sparta and then, over time, the sharpness will blunt. On the other hand, reputations are harder to kill than vampires.
[/quote]
I'm sorry mother, we aren't being well mannered boys, are we? I'll call you after dinner at Tommy's house and tell you how my day was, I promise.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Tulak Hord' date='05 May 2010 - 05:44 AM' timestamp='1273052678' post='2287525']
If they're against you, RV or that other numbnutted twit whose name is escaping me(It's never far away from you two, it'll come) right now I'd support them too.[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]So, are you telling me that the facts of the matter behind the sanctions are irrelevant to you? You only care who is being sanctioned? That if it is someone you don't like you will blindly support any action taken against them even if it is entirely undeserved? I just want to make sure we're on the same page here.[/color]

[quote name='King Louis the II' date='05 May 2010 - 08:00 AM' timestamp='1273060791' post='2287556']
Sparta will always defend their allies.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]New Polar Order, noCB. Thanks for playing.[/color]

Edited May 5, 2010 by Rebel Virginia

[Seth Muscarella]

I'd like to know where this obligation to prove to our detractors that we've changed is stemming from. The only reason you people don't know how we've changed since Karma (over a full year ago) is because you aren't in any form of contact with us. And that is because we don't want to have anything to do with you, and vice versa i'm sure. You can keep acting like you care and that you genuinely want to know how Sparta has changed, just stop trying to fool the world into thinking that you would care if you heard the answer.

And to those that have actually queried us in private, asking a broad question and then disappearing when the conversation isn't going in a funny direction doesn't count as genuine. ;-P

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='05 May 2010 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1273091470' post='2287978']
I'd like to know where this obligation to prove to our detractors that we've changed is stemming from. The only reason you people don't know how we've changed since Karma (over a full year ago) is because you aren't in any form of contact with us. And that is because we don't want to have anything to do with you, and vice versa i'm sure. You can keep acting like you care and that you genuinely want to know how Sparta has changed, just stop trying to fool the world into thinking that you would care if you heard the answer.

And to those that have actually queried us in private, asking a broad question and then disappearing when the conversation isn't going in a funny direction doesn't count as genuine. ;-P
[/quote]
There are a lot of people here who actually have cared about ODN. Some of us still do.

That's where this is coming from. We don't really care about you, we just don't want to see ODN join the other bodies you've left in the ditch.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='05 May 2010 - 04:22 PM' timestamp='1273090921' post='2287967']
[color="#0000FF"]So, are you telling me that the facts of the matter behind the sanctions are irrelevant to you? You only care who is being sanctioned? That if it is someone you don't like you will blindly support any action taken against them even if it is entirely undeserved? I just want to make sure we're on the same page here.[/color][/quote] Well, considering your a pestilence, sanctions are like pesticide.

Name one person Sparta has inappropriately sanctioned.

[quote][color="#0000FF"]New Polar Order, noCB. Thanks for playing.[/color]
[/quote]
I wasn't aware that he said "Sparta has defended her allies in the past."

Things are always changing. I'm sure when the proverbial !@#$ hits the fan again, you will be disappointed by our performance. [I'm making an assumption here; that assumption being that you want to see us prove you right.]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='05 May 2010 - 04:34 PM' timestamp='1273091637' post='2287979']
There are a lot of people here who actually have cared about ODN. Some of us still do.

That's where this is coming from. We don't really care about you, we just don't want to see ODN join the other bodies you've left in the ditch.
[/quote]
I'm sure ODN can make their own decisions, Mommy.

Edited May 5, 2010 by wilhelm the demented

[Hymenbreach]

Sparta: not requiring politics in a political world. Well done.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='05 May 2010 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1273091757' post='2287982']
Name one person Sparta has inappropriately sanctioned.
[/quote]
Syrik of Poison Clan.