A Joint Announcement by the Orange Defense Network and Sparta

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Unholy' date='04 May 2010 - 05:09 PM' timestamp='1273007344' post='2286727']
Alright, well, I suppose I'll see exactly whether or not a discussion is what you seek.

April 20th, 2009 was the date that Sparta canceled her treaty with NPO, and we had announced our withdrawal from The Continuum two days prior. That just so happened to be near the time of Karma. Contrary to the seemingly popular view of Sparta being evil and plotting to take out NPO, well, to be frank that's not what happened at all. For months before our opinion, which was somewhere between good and bad, of the NPO had been declining. Cancellation was far from out of the question, and was probably going to happen in a short amount of time. However, when Pre-Karma and Karma tensions started building, Sparta felt no desire to fight and sacrifice for an alliance we frankly had no desire to be friends with anymore. The public didn't like the treaty, the gov didn't like the treaty. Essentially, we felt valued not as an ally, but a political tool. Which is essentially the truth.
When NPO attacked OV, we were tied to both sides. We had one of our strongest allies, who is still a strong ally to this day, obligated by treaty to defend OV. We were stuck trying to choose between an aggressor we were tied to but not truly allies with or a friend who had no choice but to honor a treaty with one of their friends. We chose to defend our ally rather than fight with the aggressor and ultimately drag our allies into the conflict. Our war against NPO was to defend our allies, quite simply.

So, in this instance, we didn't abandon a friend. We cut an outdated treaty because we knew NPO's path and ours were not going to work together in the long run, we had no reason to lead our alliance to ruin on a piece of paper tying us to an alliance we no longer felt attached to.

So, if any of you are interested in the facts we've to present, here they are. Out in the open, ready for anyone to read. If you actually read these facts, and care, well good for you. If not, it's as I suspected, you aren't interested in a discussion. Just bashing Sparta as much as you can.
[/quote]

There we go. We're now getting to the meat of it. I'm also going to ignore Olaf's little rage post up there because all I heard was a pile of incompetent crap.

Although, I must admit, this does sound like an ad hoc excuse. My question is, if you felt it necessary to drop the treaty because of their treatment of you, why did you feel it necessary to attack them?

[Stonewall Jaxon]

[quote name='flak attack' date='04 May 2010 - 04:34 PM' timestamp='1273008859' post='2286767']
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=77422&st=0

Come again?
[/quote]

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79546&st=0&p=2142989&fromsearch=1&#entry2142989"]http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79546&st=0&p=2142989&fromsearch=1&#entry2142989[/url]

Still obsessed with us? I think it's a CN rule: any conversation will, regardless of the original issue, become centered around NSO. It just proves that we're the center of the universe. Thank you for helping to prove my theory.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Stonewall Jaxon

[Unholy]

Like I said, we had treaty obligations, and obligations to our friends to defend them. NPO happened to force several of our allies into war, and we declared in defense of our allies.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='04 May 2010 - 05:04 PM' timestamp='1273007058' post='2286721']
Yes, I'm a terrible King for pointing out everyone's hypocracy. Blah Blah Blah, Boo Hoo
Yours with love,
-Olaf Styke, King of Sparta
[i]
Auf wiedersehen[/i]
[/quote]

So let me get this straight your plan to get people to forget Sparta has a long history of turning on allies, poor war performances and demands for reps they did not earn is... to come out in public and say lots of stupid stuff so people will think you are a terrible leader? Why that is just brilliant. What a fantastic idea. Mission accomplished sir. Everyone thinks you are a terrible leader. And if I had not just reminded them about Sparta's history they would surely have forgotten it. Oh poor ODN I bet you had no idea what you were getting into.

[Unholy]

[quote name='The Big Bad' date='04 May 2010 - 04:48 PM' timestamp='1273009681' post='2286797']
So let me get this straight your plan to get people to forget Sparta has a long history of turning on allies, poor war performances and demands for reps they did not earn is... to come out in public and say lots of stupid stuff so people will think you are a terrible leader? Why that is just brilliant. What a fantastic idea. Mission accomplished sir. Everyone thinks you are a terrible leader. And if I had not just reminded them about Sparta's history they would surely have forgotten it. Oh poor ODN I bet you had no idea what you were getting into.
[/quote]

We were having a discussion. Stop ruining it.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Unholy' date='04 May 2010 - 05:47 PM' timestamp='1273009604' post='2286795']
Like I said, we had treaty obligations, and obligations to our friends to defend them. NPO happened to force several of our allies into war, and we declared in defense of our allies.
[/quote]

That's a pretty terrible reason. Despite the fact that they treated you poorly (which I won't go into because that's besides the point), they were still your allies for some time. If you felt that they were being bad allies much longer prior to Karma, then you should have canceled much longer before then. The fact that you held onto the treaty for so long was wholly unnecessary. A treaty is a symbol of friendship, and you desecrated that symbol by attacking them right after you cancelled.

[Unholy]

That may be so, but the fact is, Sparta as an alliance felt it was suicide to not keep the treaty when we had discussed the issue prior to Karma. Several months prior. But when it came to the point where our allies were threatened, Sparta did not feel any regret about fighting to defend them, regardless of the consequences. We had no desire to hold a treaty, no matter how beneficial to Sparta it may have been, if it meant the destruction, defeat, or sacrifice of any of our allies.

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='flak attack' date='04 May 2010 - 05:34 PM' timestamp='1273008859' post='2286767']
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=77422&st=0

Come again?
[/quote]

I'm not really sure what your angle is Flak. Is it that NSO backstabbed STA/Frostbite by signing with IRON? Or are you trying to insinuate that NSO is a cowardly backstabbing alliance because they are not out helping IRON now? NSO fought for 2 months, lost around 75% of their NS, and was dogpilled by around 10 times their NS. They surrendered before IRON entered this predicament, with IRONs blessing as I understand. I understand that you don't like NSO, but at least try not to make libelous claims about them

[KingEd]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' date='04 May 2010 - 09:19 PM' timestamp='1273004338' post='2286676']
Olaf you're the leader of Sparta?

Oh dear

Your posting on this announcement has already diminished my already low view of Sparta, I would think you guys would want to improve your image, not embrace your past characteristics.
[/quote]

I doubt you know Sparta; as for their actions in the past, everyone has made mistakes---the difference is whether they fess up to them or not (not that it changes anything) for example: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54884 ---the mass cancellation on NPO which included MCXA and Yes, Signed by Me. I wasn't a big fan of NPO but they were a long time ally of MCXA and had 45 ties to us---I'll admit it was impossible to dodge, hence why we couldn't dodge it but we tried, nevertheless. And since I know someone will say it so lets get it out now: If it weren't for those [s]meddling kids[/s] Dr. Fresh, we would have gotten away with it. lol at Scooby Doo Pun

Please learn your own history before criticizing others.


[quote name='supercoolyellow' date='04 May 2010 - 10:17 PM' timestamp='1273007813' post='2286736']
PS. Ask Unholy how its, done, or just let him do the rest of the posting for this topic.

Also Unholy, from what I hear Sparta had a list of real and fake allies, and that MCXA once had a treaty with you that you considered "fake". What is that all about?
[/quote]

Fake ? No. Misunderstood, definitely. Karma came soon after the TSO exodus, and the new established government had to be allies with all MDoAP partners of MCXA when we didn't even know them. Besides Gopher/Fresh (I was lost half the time) no one in the new "govt" had known our allies all that well. I know that personally, I never really talked much to Sparta, and I thank them for not canceling their MDP with MCXA until after we got back on our feet.


[quote name='Jack Diorno' date='04 May 2010 - 10:37 PM' timestamp='1273009049' post='2286776']
This is a good treaty.
It's nice to see people are still butthurt about events that happened when continuum was breaking up as well, when was that?

A year ago?

.....
[/quote]

They seem to forget that, ummm..., Sparta wasn't the only one to leave Continuum and cancel on NPO. It's all history now...so lets try to move on ?

[Seth Muscarella]

[quote name='Jrenster' date='04 May 2010 - 02:52 PM' timestamp='1273009943' post='2286804']
That's a pretty terrible reason. Despite the fact that they treated you poorly (which I won't go into because that's besides the point), they were still your allies for some time. If you felt that they were being bad allies much longer prior to Karma, then you should have canceled much longer before then. The fact that you held onto the treaty for so long was wholly unnecessary. A treaty is a symbol of friendship, and you desecrated that symbol by attacking them right after you cancelled.
[/quote]
I was not in gov at the time, so I can only speculate, but I voiced my disagreement with the decision to attack NPO. My guess as to the reason though, is that one of our allies requested that we join them, and we obliged. I also do not know who initially decided that we join Q, nor who decided that we stay in it for as long as we did, despite the obvious mistreatment behind closed doors, but rest assured that there is no such decision-making in our gov today. We devote much more to keeping up with our allies and close friends, as well as an improved foreign policy that relies primarily on true bonds of friendship and similarities in both our member base and our goals; for example this treaty with ODN. I have full confidence that our current leadership knows exactly where we are going and have already made significant changes to our policies that existed well before karma.

EDIT: supercoolyellow, in my entire time of gov, i've never seen or even heard of a "real or fake" allies list. I don't know where you got that information from, but there was no such thing even in archived gov discussion before i was promoted.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Seth Muscarella

[potato]

[quote name='wickedj' date='04 May 2010 - 11:23 PM' timestamp='1273008205' post='2286751']
This looks like a potato announcement, someone has been outsourcing
[/quote]

Hey now! Need I remind you how terrible my announcements were? [i]Really?[/i] It took !@#$ announcement to a whole new level, young man. And you best remember it before I join CSN and potato your stuff too.

[D34th]

[quote name='KingEd' date='04 May 2010 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1273010539' post='2286812']
They seem to forget that, ummm..., Sparta wasn't the only one to leave Continuum and cancel on NPO. It's all history now...so lets try to move on ?
[/quote]

Not everyone, I have a good memory.

MHA, FOK, Sparta, TOP and TSO are accomplices of NPO "crimes" and all of them enjoyed the security and the power in Continuum to them left NPO to die "alone"

[Unholy]

[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='04 May 2010 - 05:04 PM' timestamp='1273010663' post='2286814']
I was not in gov at the time, so I can only speculate, but I voiced my disagreement with the decision to attack NPO. My guess as to the reason though, is that one of our allies requested that we join them, and we obliged. I also do not know who initially decided that we join Q, nor who decided that we stay in it for as long as we did, despite the obvious mistreatment behind closed doors, but rest assured that there is no such decision-making in our gov today. We devote much more to keeping up with our allies and close friends, as well as an improved foreign policy that relies primarily on true bonds of friendship and similarities in both our member base and our goals; for example this treaty with ODN. I have full confidence that our current leadership knows exactly where we are going and have already made significant changes to our policies that existed well before karma.

EDIT: supercoolyellow, in my entire time of gov, i've never seen or even heard of a "real or fake" allies list. I don't know where you got that information from, but there was no such thing even in archived gov discussion before i was promoted.
[/quote]
This, on both issues.

I can't say we've never made any mistakes, but our gov today is far different from what it was then.

Supercoolyellow: Like Seth, that's nothing I've ever heard about or read about.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Unholy' date='04 May 2010 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1273010990' post='2286821']
This, on both issues.

I can't say we've never made any mistakes, but our gov today is far different from what it was then.

Supercoolyellow: Like Seth, that's nothing I've ever heard about or read about.
[/quote]

At least you are willing to admit to Sparta's mistakes. However, to claim that your gov is far different than what it was before is asking a lot. I believe Prince Arutha had a [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=85216&view=findpost&p=2286215]pretty good post[/url] regarding what we are talking about. Purges and the like help, but goes little in showing people that you have changed. And after having that little spat with one of your leaders, I remain ever more doubtful of your claim. But time will tell.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Jrenster

[Seth Muscarella]

[quote name='D34th' date='04 May 2010 - 03:09 PM' timestamp='1273010974' post='2286820']
Not everyone, I have a good memory.

MHA, FOK, Sparta, TOP and TSO are accomplices of NPO "crimes" and all of them enjoyed the security and the power in Continuum to them left NPO to die "alone"
[/quote]
We've long ago sought forgiveness from the alliances we harmed during that time, and many are now friends. Personally, I welcome the "hegemony side" to bring us to justice for the crimes they also committed, since they are the ones constantly whining about it after the alliances that SHOULD be wanting revenge have already moved on.

[Unholy]

I can tell you now, that our foreign policy has seen significant changes, and we've gone under many internal reforms that most of the cyberverse will not see directly. While we, I admit, used to have a lot of politics mixed into our foreign policy, that's entirely gone now. Our allies are based upon friendships between the member bases, and similar goals. If the memberships don't like each other, then we won't sign the treaty.

[Banksy]

[quote name='D34th' date='05 May 2010 - 11:09 AM' timestamp='1273010974' post='2286820']
Not everyone, I have a good memory.

MHA, FOK, Sparta, TOP and TSO are accomplices of NPO "crimes" and all of them enjoyed the security and the power in Continuum to them left NPO to die "alone"
[/quote]
Dude- you left the NpO off that list~

If we're going to get all picky....

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='05 May 2010 - 09:17 AM' timestamp='1273011438' post='2286831']
We've long ago sought forgiveness from the alliances we harmed during that time, and many are now friends. Personally, I welcome the "hegemony side" to bring us to justice for the crimes they also committed, since they are the ones constantly whining about it after the alliances that SHOULD be wanting revenge have already moved on.
[/quote]
The people you claim should be seeking revenge are not because it would be stupid for them to attack an alliance they have so successfully co-opted to their side. You see, you are missing the point. We were 'brought to justice' for our 'crimes', you jumped the fence and joined in handing out the punishments for acts you participated in.

[Lord Fingolfin]

I'm flattered to be included in Olaf's list of bottom dwellers. Although, I must say your predecessor did it a lot better. I'd have to go through my logs on [ooc]my home computer[/ooc], but I think Tulak threatened me with ZI, and called me a bottom feeding cockroach who would prostrate myself before him, after I walked out of Legion-Sparta peace talks. In any case, I appreciate the candor being given here, outside of Olaf's asides there have been some insightful comments. I can now say that I can appreciate/understand Sparta's position Pre-Karma, although I think that them actually hitting NPO was still completely over the line. Oh well. Thanks for the fascinating chat...

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='KingEd' date='04 May 2010 - 05:02 PM' timestamp='1273010539' post='2286812']

Please learn your own history before criticizing others.


[/quote]

I am very aware that MCXA was part of CoC, and I am also aware that MCXA regrets it deaply. It is quite foolish to assume I don't know MCXA's history in Karma. Also to go after MCXA in an attempt to defend Sparta doesn't defend Sparta. MCXA's bad decisions has no relevancy to whether or not Sparta's decisions in the past were good or not.

[Seth Muscarella]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' date='04 May 2010 - 03:27 PM' timestamp='1273012035' post='2286840']
The people you claim should be seeking revenge are not because it would be stupid for them to attack an alliance they have so successfully co-opted to their side. You see, you are missing the point. We were 'brought to justice' for our 'crimes', you jumped the fence and joined in handing out the punishments for acts you participated in.
[/quote]
Bring it, and such.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='05 May 2010 - 09:32 AM' timestamp='1273012306' post='2286847']
Bring it, and such.
[/quote]
Good to see you are maintaining the Spartan standard of debate. Responses like that to legitimate criticisms do your alliance no favours.

[Unholy]

And, politically, our alternate was what? Be destroyed because we were a threat to the absolute power of Pacifica, and be put under crippling reps or disbanded? I don't care, the fact is, you may as well have forced us to do it. From a realistic standpoint, at our size, not helping pacifica was not an option if we were to have an alliance. Get it yet?

Edited May 4, 2010 by Unholy

[Unholy]

Whoops.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Unholy

[Seth Muscarella]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' date='04 May 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1273012483' post='2286851']
Good to see you are maintaining the Spartan standard of debate. Responses like that to legitimate criticisms do your alliance no favours.
[/quote]
One man's "hopping sides" is another man's "we completely disagree with our current allies' methods and motives and hey look! Those they are attacking appreciate us for what we are, and truly share the same ambitions." It doesn't really matter to me what way you see it; it doesn't change our reasons for aligning with better friends.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Seth Muscarella