A Joint Announcement by the Orange Defense Network and Sparta

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Unholy' date='05 May 2010 - 09:36 AM' timestamp='1273012595' post='2286855']
And, politically, our alternate was what? Be destroyed because we were a threat to the absolute power of Pacifica, and be put under crippling reps or disbanded? Consider a revolt, consider it a betrayal. I don't care, the fact is, you may as well have forced us to do it. From a realistic standpoint, at our size, not helping pacifica was not an option if we were to have an alliance. Get it yet?
[/quote]
Where are you getting this stuff from? We were going to put reps on you or disband you? Since when? Maybe if you looked beyond your hysterical paranoid fear of Pacifica you might understand how nonsensical you are. We forced you to hold a treaty with us, right up until the point where it was needed, and then forced you to cancel it and attack us?

If you are trying to say you needed a treaty with us to survive I remember quite a few alliances who had no ties to us and were and are doing just fine.

[Unholy]

Historically speaking, NPO was not the nicest alliance to people who were threats to them. I'll go ahead and use the example from earlier in this thread:

[quote]You know, in the past, my neighbors dog bit me. One day i was riding my bike and I stopped and went to pet him and he bit me. I was hurt more emotionally than physically, about a month later the dog bit me again while I was taking out the garbage for my mom. The dog was quarantined for 2 weeks and was cleared by the vet. I, being a naive 7 year old forgave and forgot about the incident. 3 months later I was bit again by the same dog requiring 11 stitches and leaving a pretty nasty scar on my face that I have to this day. Now, knowing the dogs HISTORY I should have known that it was prone to turning on me and biting me, However I kept giving the dog a chance thinking that it would change. I should have looked at the EVIDENCE that the dog had been proving me and seeing the dogs violent history I should have made a better educated decision and just steered clear of the dog. [/quote]

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='D34th' date='04 May 2010 - 06:09 PM' timestamp='1273010974' post='2286820']
Not everyone, I have a good memory.

MHA, FOK, Sparta, TOP and TSO are accomplices of NPO "crimes" and all of them enjoyed the security and the power in Continuum to them left NPO to die "alone"
[/quote]

Two down, three to go?

Don't you think the fact that they turned around and helped to topple the hegemony should count in their favor when judging them? Without the support of MHA, FOK, Sparta and TOP, Karma would not have been a victory. Their choices decided the war, and they chose the side of justice, that is what makes them different from those who fought for the black and blue.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='04 May 2010 - 03:40 PM' timestamp='1273012801' post='2286861']
One man's "hopping sides" is another man's "we completely disagree with our current allies' methods and motives and hey look! Those they are attacking appreciate us for what we are, and truly share the same ambitions." It doesn't really matter to me what way you see it; it doesn't change our reasons for aligning with better friends.
[/quote]

What? Yes the attack on OV was bad but it doesn't even begin to compare with some of the things they (NPO) did in the past that [b]you[/b] helped them to do.

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='04 May 2010 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1273013143' post='2286869']
Don't you think the fact that they turned around and helped to topple the hegemony should count in their favor when judging them? Without the support of MHA, FOK, Sparta and TOP, Karma would not have been a victory. Their choices decided the war, and they chose the side of justice, that is what makes them different from those who fought for the black and blue.
[/quote]

Sure, I guess. That is, if you actually think they did that for "justice" and not just the fact that they could save their pixels and advance while doing so.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Mr Damsky

[Geoffron X]

[quote name='Unholy' date='04 May 2010 - 06:44 PM' timestamp='1273013033' post='2286867']
Historically speaking, NPO was not the nicest alliance to people who were threats to them. I'll go ahead and use the example from earlier in this thread:
[/quote]
You weren't even a threat to us, though! And nor were we a threat to you! We were allied! There was no reason for either of us to attack the other!
[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='04 May 2010 - 06:40 PM' timestamp='1273012801' post='2286861']
One man's "hopping sides" is another man's "we completely disagree with our current allies' methods and motives and hey look! Those they are attacking appreciate us for what we are, and truly share the same ambitions." It doesn't really matter to me what way you see it; it doesn't change our reasons for aligning with better friends.
[/quote]
I didn't know Sparta and Ordo Verde had such close relations.

[lonewolfe2015]

Too much has been said for me to successfully comment on, but I need to mention one thing.

Being NPO's allies meant what exactly? Destroying alliances for flimsy reasons, eternal wars, getting to be a big boy at the dinner table? Preying on the smaller alliances?

Sparta stopped being allied to them at an opportune moment, we get that already. But if you were Sparta and you canceled before hand you become a target of theirs, no other alliance was willing to do this, let alone Sparta. So don't blame them for looking out for themselves and not tipping NPO to the plays being put forth.

As someone who has been in a very similar situation, canceling of treaties is not something you always know you need to do, remember the phrase "hindsight is 20/20" most of you have no idea what led to the cancellation or the timing of it. I seem to recall at the time that Sparta was one of the last people to cancel? Also one of the alliances people were not as sure of what they would do?

Sometime's you get thrown into a situation where you are forced to make a decision on the spot, they made theirs. Many of you would have made the same decision given a similar or identical set of cards. Some of you can say you would have done it sooner. Almost none of you can say that you would have made the situation any less drama inducing.

This is a typical argument against Sparta, all of you are making very sketchy issues and blowing them up ten fold to try and draw out the peanut gallery to support your rage on them.

E:
[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 May 2010 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1273013248' post='2286871']
What? Yes the attack on OV was bad but it doesn't even begin to compare with some of the things they (NPO) did in the past that [b]you[/b] helped them to do.[/quote]

I never did understand this argument very well.

If Sparta stopped helping NPO do bad things and instead realized what they were doing and who their real friends were, is that a bad thing? Would you have rathered they stay allied to NPO, got destroyed and then found out afterwords that NPO were bad allies?

Don't answer that, because you probably would have, but they didn't want to take the fall for NPO, an alliance who had they of not been allies, would have made them targets.

Edited May 4, 2010 by lonewolfe2015

[Unholy]

Well, it seems since this has once again degenerated into a mess of Sparta bashing, I'm just going to do the smartest thing I can and leave this thread. Have fun folks.

[Seth Muscarella]

[quote name='Geoffron X' date='04 May 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1273013300' post='2286872']
I didn't know Sparta and Ordo Verde had such close relations.
[/quote]
I didn't realize Sparta befriended Athens after NPO attacked OV, nor was I aware that I was speaking specifically about the Karma time period.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='05 May 2010 - 09:40 AM' timestamp='1273012801' post='2286861']
One man's "hopping sides" is another man's "we completely disagree with our current allies' methods and motives and hey look! Those they are attacking appreciate us for what we are, and truly share the same ambitions." It doesn't really matter to me what way you see it; it doesn't change our reasons for aligning with better friends.
[/quote]
Your reasons don't justify your actions. If that is how you felt then you should have acted upon it sooner, instead of putting up a facade of friendship and continuing support only to say 'oh no, we actually hate you guys, so we are gunna cancel our treaty and attack you now, lol.'

[quote name='Unholy' date='05 May 2010 - 09:44 AM' timestamp='1273013033' post='2286867']
Historically speaking, NPO was not the nicest alliance to people who were threats to them. I'll go ahead and use the example from earlier in this thread:
[/quote]
There are so many things wrong with that analogy it's not funny. To speak in your terms, the 'dog' never bit you, another one did. You then hid for a while, then you made friends with the dog and decided to defend each other, and you won quite a few fights together. Then the dog got in a fight where it needed your help, and you turned around and bit him.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 May 2010 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1273013248' post='2286871']
Sure, I guess. That is, if you actually think they did that for "justice" and not just the fact that they could save their pixels and advance while doing so.
[/quote]

Don't you see, if they had wanted to maintain the status quo they could have stayed in Continuum and Hegemony would have won the war.

Now, preferably none of them would have allied themselves with the hegemony in the first place. But you have to take what you can get.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Lord Brendan

[AnCapistan]

Also, don't forget people. Sparta was in the Karma coalition months before the war even happened (I'm not making this up their own leader said so ).

If that's not betrayal I don't know what is.

[Shinpah]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 May 2010 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1273013248' post='2286871']
What? Yes the attack on OV was bad but it doesn't even begin to compare with some of the things they (NPO) did in the past that [b]you[/b] helped them to do.
[/quote]

Could you provide some examples?

I'm curious

[OsRavan]

Does this debate strike anyone else as circular or pointless?

Let me get this straight... some people not allied to sparta (I notice a lot of former enemies among them too) don't like Sparta, don't trust them, don't whatever.

Well fine. I'm sure you have your reasons even if I don't agree with them. You can express your dislike by continuing to have nothing to do with them.


ODN on the other hand has taken the time to actually get to know Sparta and the actual people in Sparta. Something it sounds like most of the haters have not done. I am convinced not only that they are good people, but that they are the sort of people I would want besides me in a tight spot. For our part, I know ODN has every intention of backing Sparta up through thick and thin. And we also do not have a moment of doubt, knowing Sparta as we do, that they will do the same for us. Good times and lean times, I know they will have our back.

If you disagree, than you can be thankful you don't have them as friends. I think most of us that know Sparta well will snicker at what we view as your loss.

Eventually, time will prove one of us right. I'm confident it will prove Sparta and ODN right for signing this treaty. Until then, what is the point of all this complaining? If you are worried about ODN... thanks for the concern, but no thanks. We couldn't be happier with this treaty. If you just want to vent or complain, I think there are better places to do that. If you want to ask serious questions of Olaf, he told you where you could find him. I don't know why some people feel the need to try to turn every positive and congratulatory announcement into a negative cesspool, but there we go.

[KingEd]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' date='04 May 2010 - 11:28 PM' timestamp='1273012113' post='2286843']
I am very aware that MCXA was part of CoC, and I am also aware that MCXA regrets it deaply. It is quite foolish to assume I don't know MCXA's history in Karma. Also to go after MCXA in an attempt to defend Sparta doesn't defend Sparta. MCXA's bad decisions has no relevancy to whether or not Sparta's decisions in the past were good or not.
[/quote]

I'm not going after anyone but I am defending Sparta; it's useless to attack them for actions of the past (because it's the past). Please explain what you wish to accomplish by saying Sparta made mistakes in the past ? Mistakes they admit, and we all know...so please indulge me; I happen to have a lot of free time on my hands today.

Maybe I'm not as active on OWF as I should be but from what I saw in MHA's last big announcement---no one brought up their Continuum days---but somehow because Sparta signs with a C&G signatory (in this case ODN), their the complete bad guys!...

Edited May 4, 2010 by KingEd

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='KingEd' date='04 May 2010 - 07:20 PM' timestamp='1273015238' post='2286912']
I'm not going after anyone but I am defending Sparta; it's useless to attack them for actions of the past (because it's the past). Please explain what you wish to accomplish by saying Sparta made mistakes in the past ? Mistakes they admit, and we all know...so please indulge me; I happen to have a lot of free time on my hands today.

Maybe I'm not as active on OWF as I should be but from what I saw in MHA's last big announcement---no one brought up their Continuum days---but somehow because Sparta signs with a C&G signatory (in this case ODN), their the complete bad guys!...
[/quote]
Don't fret about it, they just want to see us burn.

I'm sure you are all sitting on the edges of your seats, waiting for us to leave ODN high and dry in their moment of need. Keep holding your breath, please.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Shinpah' date='04 May 2010 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1273014007' post='2286892']
Could you provide some examples?

I'm curious
[/quote]

Okay...

[url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=33384]Click[/url]
[url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=31544]Click[/url]

Just a few off the top of my head.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='KingEd' date='04 May 2010 - 04:20 PM' timestamp='1273015238' post='2286912']
I'm not going after anyone but I am defending Sparta; [b]it's useless to attack them for actions of the past (because it's the past)[/b]. Please explain what you wish to accomplish by saying Sparta made mistakes in the past ? Mistakes they admit, and we all know...so please indulge me; I happen to have a lot of free time on my hands today.
[/quote]

Hrm...what? So if I disband tPE and in a year from now you can't get mad at me because "it's in the past"?

[Eric Cantona]

Oh hi. Anyone seen the topic lately?

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 May 2010 - 07:34 PM' timestamp='1273016081' post='2286936']
Okay...

[url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=33384]Click[/url]
[url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=31544]Click[/url]

Just a few off the top of my head.
[/quote]
Good thing we don't associate with those guys anymore. Whew, that's a load off. The political pressure was intense!

[quote name='Eric Cantona' date='04 May 2010 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1273016226' post='2286941']
Oh hi. Anyone seen the topic lately?
[/quote]
[ooc]I saw it a few pages back and tried to usher a few peeps in that direction, but I think it eluded them.[/ooc]

Edited May 4, 2010 by wilhelm the demented

[Shinpah]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 May 2010 - 07:34 PM' timestamp='1273016081' post='2286936']
Okay...

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=33384"]Click[/url]
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=31544"]Click[/url]

Just a few off the top of my head.
[/quote]

WotC saw NPO on an entirely different theater of war than Sparta; although I can't say I'm a fan of the offensive reparations. That said, Sparta's sigs aren't even on NV peace terms

[SiCkO]

this thread is wasted, though it's good to see sparta is living up to my score

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Shinpah' date='04 May 2010 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1273017799' post='2286979']
[1]WotC saw NPO on an entirely different theater of war than Sparta; although I can't say I'm a fan of the offensive reparations. That said, [2]Sparta's sigs aren't even on NV peace terms
[/quote]

1. Yes that is true however I'd say being in the same bloc and fighting against the same enemy is supporting your bloc mate.

2. I can concede that, however (I looked it up) and they list it as a victory on their wiki. Either way, they didn't appear to mind it.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='SiCkO' date='04 May 2010 - 08:24 PM' timestamp='1273019068' post='2286997']


this thread is wasted, though it's good to see sparta is living up to my score
[/quote]
We wouldn't want to let you down.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

First, congratulations to both parties, may this go very well for you.

Second, I just couldnt resist addressing this, it seems to come up in a lot of different contexts.

[quote name='KingEd' date='05 May 2010 - 09:20 AM' timestamp='1273015238' post='2286912']
I'm not going after anyone but I am defending Sparta; it's useless to attack them for actions of the past (because it's the past).
[/quote]

And it's just the most useless and backwards argument ever. The inanity just leaves me speechless every time.

That said, while neither Sparta nor ODN have perfect records, they are hardly in the top ranks of infamy either, as I see it. It is ludicrous to claim that one cannot criticise past actions, but it is also silly not to take into account behaviour since, and on that account they are head and shoulders ahead of many who now presume to cast stones at them. The irony is rich and earthy to the nostrils.

[KingEd]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='05 May 2010 - 12:36 AM' timestamp='1273016191' post='2286940']
Hrm...what? So if I disband tPE and in a year from now you can't get mad at me because "it's in the past"?
[/quote]

Ok, sure get mad. But what will you achieve by getting mad ?

Ugh, this is why I skip over OWF sometimes. lol

Damsky