Bob Janova Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 Prevention and deterrence in the political sphere are the same thing. You can't actually stop people declaring wars or sending aid, after all. Don't play semantics. By saying you will roll anyone who provides military help to IRON/DAWN you are preventing that from happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i surge i Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 [quote name='Golan 1st' date='21 April 2010 - 06:02 PM' timestamp='1271887357' post='2269647'] Thanks for saying this. This will do miracles to your alliance's image. [/quote] This post has truly opened my eyes, Nate you have ruined my respect for umbrella Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golan 1st Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Penlugue Solaris' date='22 April 2010 - 01:01 AM' timestamp='1271887242' post='2269641']Thats a deterrent, not prevention. They can still do so if they wish. As stated before I'd rather they not because i like this peace D:[/quote]Typical meaningless semantic argument. You are deterring them to prevent them from attacking Gramlins. Happy now? (Not to mention that often deterrence = prevention). Edited April 21, 2010 by Golan 1st Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dathtoal Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 [quote name='kriekfreak' date='21 April 2010 - 05:15 PM' timestamp='1271884528' post='2269549'] Someone has to treaty TORN right? [/quote] If TORN hits the crack pipe one to many times and tries to pull a RAMlin, I'll toss on the tard t-shirt. Till then, you're blowing smoke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Curzon Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 [quote name='pezstar' date='21 April 2010 - 05:58 PM' timestamp='1271887074' post='2269631'] Before I respond to this, I want to make sure I am understanding your argument. Are you saying that it is ok to aid IRON because they hold the moral high ground here, but not ok to aid Gre because they're acting as criminals? [/quote] I am saying that aiding IRON and Gre are legally equitable, but not morally equitable. You are implying that the two should be equally condemned, which is something I reject. It is my opinion that the legal justification doesn't matter because international law is determined by force and power, a maxim you already pointed out by stating that people would break terms to help if they truly "cared". That said, there is a clear "right" and "wrong" here. So yes, essentially you got the jist I would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Controversy Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 I have no issue with selling to either alliance as I am not involved, but I DO have an issue with complete hypocrisy. [img]http://i42.tinypic.com/33k4ugg.png[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Golan 1st' date='21 April 2010 - 06:05 PM' timestamp='1271887489' post='2269652'] Typical meaningless semantic argument. You are deterring them to prevent them from attacking Gramlins. Happy now? (Not to mention that often deterrence = prevention). [/quote] Err..what? That's not a meaningless semantic argument. Prevention implies they cannot attack. Deterrence means there are consequences if they do. Deterrents are designed to prevent things from happening, I agree, but there is still the ability for them to attack if they wish. As stated before, I don't wish to see that. Edited April 21, 2010 by Penlugue Solaris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flak attack Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 [quote name='Dathtoal' date='21 April 2010 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1271883965' post='2269532'] Why would you want clinically retarded allies? [/quote] I take it you will be dropping your IRON treaty, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i surge i Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 This thread makes me want to buy tech from Grämlins to be perfectly honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The AUT Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 [quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='21 April 2010 - 11:07 PM' timestamp='1271887635' post='2269656'] I have no issue with selling to either alliance as I am not involved, but I DO have an issue with complete hypocrisy. [img]http://i42.tinypic.com/33k4ugg.png[/img] [/quote] I guess supporting an alliance fighting for its autonomy and sovereignty by giving out tech deals is equivalent to an alliance making an unreasonable demand in order to vindicate their offensive war. Just say you don't like IRON and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Controversy Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 I don't! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golan 1st Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 [quote name='Penlugue Solaris' date='22 April 2010 - 01:08 AM' timestamp='1271887670' post='2269658'] Err..what? That's not a meaningless semantic argument. Prevention implies they cannot attack. Deterrence means there are consequences if they do. Deterrents are designed to prevent things from happening, I agree, but there is still the ability for them to attack if they wish. As stated before, I don't wish to see that.[/quote]Yeah, this is convincing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryuzaki Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 [quote name='Bob Janova' date='22 April 2010 - 11:04 AM' timestamp='1271887444' post='2269650'] Prevention and deterrence in the political sphere are the same thing. You can't actually stop people declaring wars or sending aid, after all. Don't play semantics. By saying you will roll anyone who provides military help to IRON/DAWN you are preventing that from happening. [/quote] !@#$%^&*. They are not the same thing. TOP/IRON should be deterred from declaring war on C&G like because of the damage that would have been caused to their nations and their PR but that obviously didn't prevent them from doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 [quote name='Alterego' date='22 April 2010 - 11:02 AM' timestamp='1271887326' post='2269645'] The war will continue indefinately unless IRON surrender unconditionally to Shamlins and accept any terms they decide to dish out. Its a common tactic in war to offer unnaceptable terms if you want the war to continue. [/quote] Oh please- using that line of reasoning, all wars are eternal, when they begin. All wars continue indefinitely until one party surrenders. Gremlins might be in the wrong here, but that is a pathetic argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golan 1st Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 [quote name='Ryuzaki' date='22 April 2010 - 01:13 AM' timestamp='1271887962' post='2269669'] !@#$%^&*. They are not the same thing. TOP/IRON should be deterred from declaring war on C&G like because of the damage that would have been caused to their nations and their PR but that obviously didn't prevent them from doing so.[/quote]You are a genius, are you? That's because your deterrence/prevention failed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alterego Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Banksy' date='21 April 2010 - 11:13 PM' timestamp='1271888010' post='2269672'] Oh please- using that line of reasoning, all wars are eternal, when they begin. All wars continue indefinitely until one party surrenders. Gremlins might be in the wrong here, but that is a pathetic argument. [/quote] Unlike other wars Shamlins said they will [u]never [/u]set terms. Edited April 21, 2010 by Alterego Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 [quote name='Alterego' date='22 April 2010 - 11:16 AM' timestamp='1271888147' post='2269675'] Unlike other wars Gramlins said they will [u]never [/u]set terms. [/quote] TOP said they would never set terms in their recent war with C&G. In the end they did. As I said, all wars are eternal until peace is reached, and it will be. Gremlins can't keep up a fight forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercoolyellow Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 [quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='21 April 2010 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1271887635' post='2269656'] I have no issue with selling to either alliance as I am not involved, but I DO have an issue with complete hypocrisy. [img]http://i42.tinypic.com/33k4ugg.png[/img] [/quote] We want to support IRON in every way we can, that is not hypocrisy You don't want to see IRON helped because you don't like them, and to the level of what they're being put through, you sir can be described as having hate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Alexander Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 (edited) Since the Easter Sunday accords signing and ordered by support given: [code]Sending Alliance Money Technology Soldiers RnR 37500000 0 2000 The Order of the Paradox 6000000 0 0 AGW Overlords 3000000 50 0 Poison Clan 3000000 0 200 Alpha Omega 3000000 0 0 Boards Alliance of Protectorate States 3000000 0 0 Dark Fist 3000000 0 0 Global Nuclear Order 3000000 0 0 Greenland Republic 3000000 0 0 Lone Ninja 15000000 0 0 New Sith Order 6000000 0 0 North Atlantic Defense Coalition 3000000 0 0 Pirates of the Parrot Order 3000000 0 0 Rubber Ducky Division 3000000 0 0 Seaworthy Liberian Cardboard Boxes 3000000 0 0 The Imperial Order 3000000 0 0 The International 3000000 0 0 WORLD TASK FORCE 3000000 0 0 None 0 50 0 The Legion 780000 0 0 Total 107280000 100 2200 [/code] The Shamlins are gonna come knocking on you door apparently... Edited April 21, 2010 by Shamshir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pezstar Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 [quote name='Lord Curzon' date='21 April 2010 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1271887612' post='2269655'] I am saying that aiding IRON and Gre are legally equitable, but not morally equitable. You are implying that the two should be equally condemned, which is something I reject. It is my opinion that the legal justification doesn't matter because international law is determined by force and power, a maxim you already pointed out by stating that people would break terms to help if they truly "cared". That said, there is a clear "right" and "wrong" here. So yes, essentially you got the jist I would say. [/quote] I understand your position. I don't agree with it, because I think it's pretty crappy to aid anyone at war, but I think that your opinion has merits, and I can see myself thinking more about it in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alterego Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Banksy' date='21 April 2010 - 11:18 PM' timestamp='1271888300' post='2269680'] TOP said they would never set terms in their recent war with C&G. In the end they did. As I said, all wars are eternal until peace is reached, and it will be. Gremlins can't keep up a fight forever. [/quote] There is a difference. TOP was on the smaller side and Shamlins are protected from intervention by most of the world. When Shamlins say it they can pull it off because IRON are stuck in peace and have crippling debt to the people who are protecting Shamlins. TOP on the other hand was being pummelled by half the world and couldnt continue forever. Edited April 21, 2010 by Alterego Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pezstar Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 [quote name='supercoolyellow' date='21 April 2010 - 06:21 PM' timestamp='1271888445' post='2269683'] We want to support IRON in every way we can, that is not hypocrisy You don't want to see IRON helped because you don't like them, and to the level of what they're being put through, you sir can be described as having hate. [/quote] So what you're saying is that it's fine for folks to aid IRON, but not to aid Gre? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 [quote name='Shamshir' date='22 April 2010 - 11:22 AM' timestamp='1271888560' post='2269687'] Since the Easter Sunday accords signing and ordered by support given: [code]Sending Alliance Money Technology Soldiers RnR 37500000 0 2000 The Order of the Paradox 6000000 0 0 AGW Overlords 3000000 50 0 Poison Clan 3000000 0 200 Alpha Omega 3000000 0 0 Boards Alliance of Protectorate States 3000000 0 0 Dark Fist 3000000 0 0 Global Nuclear Order 3000000 0 0 Greenland Republic 3000000 0 0 Lone Ninja 15000000 0 0 New Sith Order 6000000 0 0 North Atlantic Defense Coalition 3000000 0 0 Pirates of the Parrot Order 3000000 0 0 Rubber Ducky Division 3000000 0 0 Seaworthy Liberian Cardboard Boxes 3000000 0 0 The Imperial Order 3000000 0 0 The International 3000000 0 0 WORLD TASK FORCE 3000000 0 0 None 0 50 0 The Legion 780000 0 0 [/code] The Shamlins are gonna come knocking on you door apparently... [/quote] heh- in addition to the aid- there is R&R seemingly harbouring top tier IRON nations :s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Controversy Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 [quote name='pezstar' date='21 April 2010 - 06:26 PM' timestamp='1271888755' post='2269694'] So what you're saying is that it's fine for folks to aid IRON, but not to aid Gre? [/quote] Yes. What's wrong with this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercoolyellow Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 [quote name='pezstar' date='21 April 2010 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1271888755' post='2269694'] So what you're saying is that it's fine for folks to aid IRON, but not to aid Gre? [/quote] Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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