The Freedom of The Seas

[New Frontier]

Not to mention the fact that he is, as previously brought up, only going to be in danger from other tiny nations.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 April 2010 - 04:27 PM' timestamp='1270416415' post='2247858']
Emphasis mine. If you actually believe this you are completely ignorant about how the war system works.
[/quote]

Why even deny it? You know that most raiders attack people smaller than they are.

Proof is easy to come by. I went to CN, clicked "wars across the globe", looked at the first entry. War reason is "Tech raid. PM for peace". It'a a RIA attacker, and an unaligned defender.

Attacker
http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=393931
Infra : 311.19
NS : 2,080.229

Defender
http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=261027
Infra : 172.20
NS : 1,123.180

[kulomascovia]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' date='04 April 2010 - 02:37 PM' timestamp='1270417059' post='2247868']
If those new nations are the object of this program it really doesnt effect the pro raiding alliances, only newbs can raid newbs
[/quote]

Correct; We're not looking to interfere with raiding alliances. We're looking to help unaligned nations.

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 April 2010 - 02:47 PM' timestamp='1270417624' post='2247883']
What can a new nation who, odds are, does not know the methods of global communication or the history of alliances really need to take into account when choosing an alliance?
[/quote]

Well, when nations are spammed with messages that look like shameless advertising from many alliances, I'm thinking they're not going to be jumping to join one of those alliances. Heck, they probably don't read all of the messages they get. It's also kind of hard to fully fully trust messages that sound something like: "Join us know and receive 3 mil!! If you join within the next 20 minutes, we'll double the offer for a grand total of 6 mil!". So, while some of the information in there might be true, it is worded in a way that incites distrust.

Edited April 4, 2010 by kulomascovia

[Tritonia]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 April 2010 - 04:47 PM' timestamp='1270417624' post='2247883']
What can a new nation who, odds are, does not know the methods of global communication or the history of alliances really need to take into account when choosing an alliance?
[/quote]
I would think taking into account the history of alliances to be rather important in a nation's decision on who to join. Your alliance is more than your AA, after all. I took the better portion of a week before I got anywhere near dealing with alliances.

[Schad]

In the days of mass migrations into Bob, this likely wouldn't be necessary. However, most of the new blood seems to now arrive individually these days; unlike those who arrive in great groups, the trickle of unaligned nations really don't have any connections to anyone and anything, and it doesn't take much to push them out the door nearly as soon as they arrive, many before they've even wrapped their heads around the mechanics of nation-building. As a result, the world is top-heavy and shrinking.

That doesn't mean that people should be treating newcomers with kid gloves, but any effort made to help them build some connection to the world, and convinces them not to abandon their nations the second some other newcomer begins a slap fight with them, strikes me as a good thing. Plus, the only thing better than stealing 2 tech and $78 off a tiny nation is actually having a ready supply of tech-sellers.


tl;dr I beeelieeeeeeve the children are our fuuuuture...

[Bob Janova]

I was unaligned (practically, in a micro AA with 5 or less people) for two months. Fortunately 'raiding' – attacking small defenceless nations and destroying or stealing everything they've built up – was not so prevalent then. The idea that you should choose an alliance within a day is asinine.

[kulomascovia]

I forgot to mention this, but alliances that do not tech raid can actually place their alliance information on the Celestial Being forums:
[url="http://z10.invisionfree.com/Celestial_Being/index.php?showtopic=121"]Information on Non-Raiding alliances[/url]
We direct raided nations to this thread should they choose to join an alliance. No registration required.

Edited April 4, 2010 by kulomascovia

[twodivine]

Has everyone forgotten that his is just as much a war simulator as it is a nation building game? Raiding is more of classification of a single nation war on a single nation. People go out to have fun and experience the other side of CN, blow crap up. If they profit so be it, if they don't well, then those that got attacked hopefully got the better end of the deal for coming out ahead.

Besides the fact that if we all didn't attack each other then we'd be forfeiting the ability to purchase the War Memorial wonder for having at least 50k of casualties, and then nations will be out the +4 happiness to purchase it.

I understand people want to protect people so they don't leave the game. It's an admiral concept, but what helps keep people playing as well is people not being jerks while out playing the game. If you're going out for a raid then ended it as gentlemen between the 2 nations.

Good luck to those that want to try and aid those getting raided, as well as good luck to those that want to follow the concept created in another thread for the flip side of what is posted here. Should be interesting to see how the next war is escalated off these concepts.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Myworld

[Ashoka the Great]

At first I was confused. Then, as my cold medication-induced fog cleared somewhat, I read this:

[quote]*An optional agreement to come to the aid of non-aligned nations that are the victims of piracy through an application of optional diplomatic, economic or military force commensurate with the strength of the offending pirate and according to the attackers alliance status or lack thereof.[/quote]

So....

An optional agreement to take optional action against an aggressor based on whether said aggressor is strong, in an alliance and how large said aggressor's alliance is.

Have I got that right?

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Baldr' date='04 April 2010 - 03:06 PM' timestamp='1270418767' post='2247908']
Attacker
http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=393931
Infra : 311.19
NS : 2,080.229

Defender
http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=261027
Infra : 172.20
NS : 1,123.180
[/quote]

Way to conveniently ignore the fact that 1. the defender isn't militarized (the attacker is), 2. at that infra level barely nothing is raided and anything that is can be easily replaced, and 3. the attacker is most likely doing it for fun or experience (or both ).


[quote name='kulomascovia' date='04 April 2010 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1270418826' post='2247909']
Well, when nations are spammed with messages that look like shameless advertising from many alliances, I'm thinking they're not going to be jumping to join one of those alliances. Heck, they probably don't read all of the messages they get. It's also kind of hard to fully fully trust messages that sound something like: "Join us know and receive 3 mil!! If you join within the next 20 minutes, we'll double the offer for a grand total of 6 mil!". So, while some of the information in there might be true, it is worded in a way that incites distrust.
[/quote]

A lot of alliances send messages that aren't begging the nation to join.


[quote name='Tritonia' date='04 April 2010 - 03:10 PM' timestamp='1270419012' post='2247914']
I would think taking into account the history of alliances to be rather important in a nation's decision on who to join. Your alliance is more than your AA, after all. I took the better portion of a week before I got anywhere near dealing with alliances.
[/quote]

Yes, but when you're new to the planet it's much less of a concern. I started formulating opinions about alliances around a month into governing my nation (when I learned about the forums, irc, history etc.).


[quote name='Bob Janova' date='04 April 2010 - 03:39 PM' timestamp='1270420728' post='2247948']
[1]I was unaligned (practically, in a micro AA with 5 or less people) for two months. Fortunately 'raiding' – attacking small defenceless nations and destroying or stealing everything they've built up – was not so prevalent then. [2]The idea that you should choose an alliance within a day is asinine.
[/quote]

1. There are protectorates for a reason
2. I'm saying when you first start up, not later into your career.

---------

The alliances in FoS claim to wish to help the unaligned (I believe them) however you could do far more by recruiting those members into your alliance and not have to police unaligned raiders.

It's just a thought.

EDIT: There's some statistic out there that says that eighty percent of new nations leave the planet within a month of creation. Has anyone ever thought that that's because there's not enough to do and this becomes boring when you can't tech raid or do anything remotely fun?

Edited April 4, 2010 by Mr Damsky

[Jgoods45]

Good luck I suppose. I must say, if we raided some unprotected 10 man AA, I personally would advocate ignoring you guys if you came to us about the situation as the raids would be conducted as our charter commands them to be. ( Under 10kNS is forbidden, Two ground attacks, peace offer. ) They are pretty clearly laid out but that is basically what it says. Not to mention it is our sovereign right to raid nations should they meet our guidelines. Not trying to start anything, just pointing that out.

[Lord Curzon]

Good luck Vilien. Glad you found a way to "enforce" your principles. That said, Imma keep raidin

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 April 2010 - 11:52 PM' timestamp='1270425122' post='2248038']
Way to conveniently ignore the fact that 1. the defender isn't militarized (the attacker is), 2. at that infra level barely nothing is raided and anything that is can be easily replaced, and 3. the attacker is most likely doing it for fun or experience (or both ).




A lot of alliances send messages that aren't begging the nation to join.




Yes, but when you're new to the planet it's much less of a concern. I started formulating opinions about alliances around a month into governing my nation (when I learned about the forums, irc, history etc.).




1. There are protectorates for a reason
2. I'm saying when you first start up, not later into your career.

---------

The alliances in FoS claim to wish to help the unaligned (I believe them) however you could do far more by recruiting those members into your alliance and not have to police unaligned raiders.

It's just a thought.

EDIT: There's some statistic out there that says that eighty percent of new nations leave the planet within a month of creation. Has anyone ever thought that that's because there's not enough to do and this becomes boring when you can't tech raid or do anything remotely fun?
[/quote]
There are many reason so many nations suffer infant death syndrome, tech raiding is just one of them.

[Azural]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' date='04 April 2010 - 07:01 PM' timestamp='1270425650' post='2248048']
There are many reason so many nations suffer infant death syndrome, tech raiding is just one of them.
[/quote]
So since it's only one of the causes to the problem we shouldn't do what we can to help prevent it?

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Azural' date='04 April 2010 - 05:09 PM' timestamp='1270426141' post='2248052']
So since it's only one of the causes to the problem we shouldn't do what we can to help prevent it?
[/quote]

I don't even know if it is a problem. Whoever gets offended that they got raided (so much so that they disband) in a war simulator is...interesting.

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' date='05 April 2010 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1270425650' post='2248048']
There are many reason so many nations suffer infant death syndrome, tech raiding is just one of them.
[/quote]
Such as?
Please list some other causes so we can discuss them and hopefully correct them.

[Lord Curzon]

[quote name='Azural' date='04 April 2010 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1270426141' post='2248052']
So since it's only one of the causes to the problem we shouldn't do what we can to help prevent it?
[/quote]

I am a bit confused how tech raiding became a significant cause of infant death syndrome. I'm inclined to agree with Damsky and think you could make an argument that for every nation that is chased off by raiding another one gets its blood lust sated and decides to work to become stronger. I personally remember that being raiding was exhilarating. It forced me to realize that I was living in a political world and that there were other nations who shared that world with me. Further, it put me into contact with other more experienced rulers.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Lord Curzon

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='05 April 2010 - 12:15 AM' timestamp='1270426492' post='2248056']
Such as?
Please list some other causes so we can discuss them and hopefully correct them.
[/quote]
That is a different discussion than this thread.

[kulomascovia]

[quote name='Myworld' date='04 April 2010 - 04:30 PM' timestamp='1270423825' post='2248018']
Has everyone forgotten that his is just as much a war simulator as it is a nation building game? Raiding is more of classification of a single nation war on a single nation. People go out to have fun and experience the other side of CN, blow crap up. If they profit so be it, if they don't well, then those that got attacked hopefully got the better end of the deal for coming out ahead.
[/quote]

[ooc] Of course, CN is partly a war simulator. What is concerning is that there is a lot of warring (unbalanced tech raids) among the unaligned and very little growth. What we're trying to do is provide a counterbalance in favor of growth. [/ooc]

[quote]
I understand people want to protect people so they don't leave the game. It's an admiral concept, but what helps keep people playing as well is people not being jerks while out playing the game. If you're going out for a raid then ended it as gentlemen between the 2 nations.
[/quote]

The ideal situation would be that a nation attacks another similar ns nation for fun, they spar, have fun, and mutually decide to peace out. This almost never happens. What usually happens is that a larger nation attacks a smaller nation, raids as long as he pleases, and then decides to peaces out. I believe you can classify this behavior as "being a jerk" while attacking a nation.


[quote name='Ashoka the Great' date='04 April 2010 - 04:42 PM' timestamp='1270424541' post='2248027']
At first I was confused. Then, as my cold medication-induced fog cleared somewhat, I read this:



So....

An optional agreement to take optional action against an aggressor based on whether said aggressor is strong, in an alliance and how large said aggressor's alliance is.

Have I got that right?
[/quote]

Correct. Aiding is optional; the signatories are not forced to aid a nation. You might ask, so is it useless then? No, it is not. This is a compromise we reached to allow those who wanted to take a stand against raiding but could not or are not willing to aid other nations. Most of the current signatories do wish to aid the unaligned.


[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 April 2010 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1270425122' post='2248038']
A lot of alliances send messages that aren't begging the nation to join.
[/quote]

I'm speaking from my experience. If you have evidence that a significant portion of recruitment messages do not resemble advertisements them please do provide it. One idea that we've been thinking about is to send out PSA's to unaligned nations telling them the importance of alliances and directing them to the list of alliances in the link I posted in my previous post. This way, there would be no reason to distrust the message since we're not looking to sell them something.

[quote]
Yes, but when you're new to the planet it's much less of a concern. I started formulating opinions about alliances around a month into governing my nation (when I learned about the forums, irc, history etc.).
[/quote]

Well, I would think that not every nation becomes enthralled with the alliance aspect of Planet Bob so soon. Plus, in a day and age where raids on the unaligned happen in frequencies as high as 50 raids a day, a nation will be lucky to survive a month without getting raided.

[quote]
1. There are protectorates for a reason
2. I'm saying when you first start up, not later into your career.
[/quote]

It is a shame that no small alliance can exist peacefully these days without having a protectorate. This, I believe, is one of the symptoms of the unbalance between raiding and growth that I mentioned above.

[quote]
---------

The alliances in FoS claim to wish to help the unaligned (I believe them) however you could do far more by recruiting those members into your alliance and not have to police unaligned raiders.

It's just a thought.
[/quote]

We're not looking to police unaligned raiders. As for the idea of recruitment, it is a good suggestion. CB implements something of the kind. We message nations, and if they want protection, we tell them to switch their AA to our Applicant AA (we protect anyone on our applicant AA who matches the criterion required to become a temporary member), and then we finally contact their raiders. These nations are classified as temporary members. They don't have to sign up to forums and they can leave for an alliance at will (we do provide the list in the link I provided above). For the most part, this works well. Some do remain on our applicant AA and some decide to join us. Others leave for other alliances.

[quote]
EDIT: There's some statistic out there that says that eighty percent of new nations leave the planet within a month of creation. Has anyone ever thought that that's because there's not enough to do and this becomes boring when you can't tech raid or do anything remotely fun?
[/quote]

That cannot be correct. Tech raiding is at an all time high. We have rates of raiding as high as 50 raids a day.

Edited April 5, 2010 by kulomascovia

[Vilien]

[quote name='Lord Curzon' date='04 April 2010 - 08:16 PM' timestamp='1270426559' post='2248057']
I am a bit confused how tech raiding became a significant cause of infant death syndrome. I'm inclined to agree with Damsky and think you could make an argument that for every nation that is chased off by raiding another one gets its blood lust sated and decides to work to become stronger. I personally remember that being raiding was exhilarating. It forced me to realize that I was living in a political world and that there were other nations who shared that world with me. Further, it put me into contact with other more experienced rulers.
[/quote]
I've spent a good deal of time looking through the war screens of new nations. You'd be surprised to see how many inactivity dates coincide with double and triple team raids. There's nothing like having someone smash the tiny improvements you've made to your nation to make you decide to quit.

Also, you know better than to justify your argument with anecdotal evidence.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='kulomascovia' date='04 April 2010 - 05:24 PM' timestamp='1270427079' post='2248066']
The ideal situation would be that a nation attacks another similar ns nation for fun, they spar, have fun, and mutually decide to peace out. This almost never happens. What usually happens is that a larger nation attacks a smaller nation, raids as long as he pleases, and then decides to peaces out. I believe you can classify this behavior as "being a jerk" while attacking a nation.
[/quote]

Have you ever heard of fighting back?

[kulomascovia]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 April 2010 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1270427317' post='2248070']
Have you ever heard of fighting back?
[/quote]

That would be the ideal case, when fighting back makes a difference. When you're being attacked by 2, 3 nations who all have greater NS than you do, fighting back would be a waste of resources. You could also potentially anger your attackers, leading to an extended raid.

[Lord Curzon]

[quote name='Vilien' date='04 April 2010 - 08:28 PM' timestamp='1270427316' post='2248069']
I've spent a good deal of time looking through the war screens of new nations. You'd be surprised to see how many inactivity dates coincide with double and triple team raids. There's nothing like having someone smash the tiny improvements you've made to your nation to make you decide to quit.

Also, you know better than to justify your argument with anecdotal evidence.
[/quote]

Haha fair enough Vilien. I just wonder if these are nations destined to the ash heap of history anyway. If we have an 80% drop out rate, and 50 raids per day (of which we don't know what level NS is being raided), I find it difficult to believe that such a small number of raids, relative to incoming nations, is contributing significantly to that 80%. If we know that only 2/10 nations will continue to exist I would imagine the preponderance of those successful few join an alliance, thus the drop out rate for unaligned increases higher, and it becomes clear that being unaligned, not understanding the [OOC]game[/OOC], ruler fatigue, and the RL plague are the major causes of infant nation mortality, rather than merciless raiding. Further, a facet of "ruler fatigue" may be that the ruler did not engage in primitive warfare.

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 April 2010 - 07:11 PM' timestamp='1270426279' post='2248055']
I don't even know if it is a problem. Whoever gets offended that they got raided (so much so that they disband) in a war simulator is...interesting.
[/quote]

That's your interpretation of the purpose of Planet Bob. Because one can do something doesn't mean that one should. Perhaps it's about finding peace, and the process that takes.

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Jgoods45' date='04 April 2010 - 06:56 PM' timestamp='1270425388' post='2248042']
Good luck I suppose. I must say, if we raided some unprotected 10 man AA, I personally would advocate ignoring you guys if you came to us about the situation as the raids would be conducted as our charter commands them to be. ( Under 10kNS is forbidden, Two ground attacks, peace offer. ) They are pretty clearly laid out but that is basically what it says. Not to mention it is our sovereign right to raid nations should they meet our guidelines. Not trying to start anything, just pointing that out.
[/quote]

If the raider(s) did not follow your rules, what position would you take?

I ask, because having been a leader of a 10 man AA - oh, 20 months ago or so - we got raided often by various alliances and only one was within their rules. Why does this happen? My opinion is because most new nations don't know that there is a difference. I didn't until it was mentioned by our mentors.

If people look at this Pact as a public announcement stating a willingness to provide mentors to new national leaders, (which is how I really see it) there wouldn't be much of an issue.