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The Freedom of The Seas


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[quote]1. There are protectorates for a reason
2. I'm saying when you first start up, not later into your career.[/quote]
2. That was when my nation was first founded. Which leads me to ...
1. In order to obtain a protectorate, you must have a full understanding of the political map of the world, you must be active and interested not just on these forums but on IRC and offsite forums, and strike up relationships with people who have much better things to do than talk to every newbie that they see. To expect a micro-alliance with people [ooc]just introduced to the game[/ooc] to have the political experience necessary to get a protectorate within one day is even more ridiculous than the idea that a new nation should know which alliance is best for it in the first day.

[quote]EDIT: There's some statistic out there that says that eighty percent of new nations leave the planet within a month of creation. Has anyone ever thought that that's because there's not enough to do and this becomes boring when you can't tech raid or do anything remotely fun?[/quote]
I think it's a lot more likely that it's because being attacked and having everything you built up in that first month destroyed is not remotely fun.

[quote]People go out to have fun and experience the other side of CN, blow crap up. If they profit so be it, if they don't well, then those that got attacked hopefully got the better end of the deal for coming out ahead.[/quote]
This is the absolutely stereotypical argument of the pro-raider, and as usual Myworld completely fails to respect the ruler of the nations whose crap it is that raiders blow up. The victim never comes out ahead, even if they fight back sufficiently to make the raid unprofitable – at best they're going to end up with marginally more tech and land, and much less infra. In pretty much every case they end up with significantly less of everything than they started with.

Just randomly looking through some of the wars currently active, [url=http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display_charts.asp?Nation_ID=261611]here's[/url] the first victim I came across: lost 40% of his NS, and in anarchy and inactive from a couple of days after he was first raided. [url=http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display_charts.asp?Nation_ID=350885]Here's another one[/url], triple teamed and anarchied ... fighting back right now, but unlikely to stay around for long. And [url=http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display_charts.asp?Nation_ID=132551]a third[/url]. (That's guy's actually tech dealing with me, heh. Probably no second round there!) There are also several tiny nations that are raided before they grow at all and never stick around. I don't think it's really so fun to be attacked and outmatched, and as Vilien's observations show, many new rulers discover that the hard way.

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[quote name='kulomascovia' date='04 April 2010 - 05:33 PM' timestamp='1270427580' post='2248073']
That would be the ideal case, when fighting back makes a difference. When you're being attacked by 2, 3 nations who all have greater NS than you do, fighting back would be a waste of resources. You could also potentially anger your attackers, leading to an extended raid.
[/quote]

Jesus, I know I've repeated this like fifty times but all your problems would go away if you asked for protection from a larger alliance without joining said alliance.

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It's great to see this finally announced. Been working on this for a while and gotten to know a lot of great people and alliances and to finally have it rolled out formally makes me proud.

Trying to relate this to CNARF isn't that credible. While I see where you can make a comparison, the way we're going about this is quite different. If raiders feel they have the right to raid anyone whom has done them no harm, and they most certainly have that right, we have the right to help them out.

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[quote name='Bob Janova' date='04 April 2010 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1270429295' post='2248101']
1. In order to obtain a protectorate, you must have a full understanding of the political map of the world, you must be active and interested not just on these forums but on IRC and offsite forums, and strike up relationships with people who have much better things to do than talk to every newbie that they see. To expect a micro-alliance with people [ooc]just introduced to the game[/ooc] to have the political experience necessary to get a protectorate within one day is even more ridiculous than the idea that a new nation should know which alliance is best for it in the first day.
[/quote]

Then you join an alliance learn !@#$ and come back six months later and make your own.

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[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 April 2010 - 07:28 PM' timestamp='1270427317' post='2248070']
Have you ever heard of fighting back? :v:
[/quote]

unfortunately for the victim, too many raiders are more than willing to call in their entire alliance the moment the victim has the audacity to fight back. i mean it is like "how dare the victim hit me back when i walk up, punch him in the nose and steal his wallet..."

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[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 April 2010 - 09:03 PM' timestamp='1270429414' post='2248103']
Jesus, I know I've repeated this like fifty times but all your problems would go away if you asked for protection from a larger alliance without joining said alliance.
[/quote]

And how many alliances give protection like that? And how many of these brand new nations would know of whom to turn to and how to act? Our aim here is to give them said knowledge and help when possible. All we're doing is putting into practice what you're recommending right now, just on a pro-active scale.

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[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='04 April 2010 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1270429631' post='2248114']
unfortunately for the victim, too many raiders are more than willing to call in their entire alliance the moment the victim has the audacity to fight back. i mean it is like "how dare the victim hit me back when i walk up, punch him in the nose and steal his wallet..."
[/quote]

We're dealing with unaligned raiders.

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[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 April 2010 - 09:06 PM' timestamp='1270429585' post='2248111']
Then you join an alliance learn !@#$ and come back six months later and make your own.
[/quote]

I'm sure that's something that's surely going through a new nation ruler's head as he's just been pounded away by one of those "alliances" for no reason at all.

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[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='04 April 2010 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1270429649' post='2248115']
And how many alliances give protection like that? And how many of these brand new nations would know of whom to turn to and how to act? Our aim here is to give them said knowledge and help when possible. All we're doing is putting into practice what you're recommending right now, just on a pro-active scale.
[/quote]

Then tell them their options, you'll hear no complaints from me. But don't go around threatening to attack the raider and give the defender money.

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[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 April 2010 - 09:08 PM' timestamp='1270429692' post='2248117']
We're dealing with unaligned raiders.
[/quote]

The Freedom of the Seas Pact deals with all raiders in the manner best available, not just the unaligned.

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[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 April 2010 - 08:08 PM' timestamp='1270429692' post='2248117']
We're dealing with unaligned raiders.
[/quote]

sometimes even unaligned have friends. plus, there is the fact that a victim won't always have 3 unaligned hitting them. most likely they will have only one unaligned with 2 aligned. that is the issue with this that i have, it don't matter if FoS does get rid of the unaligned raider. all that will happen is some aligned raider will jump in immediately.

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[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 April 2010 - 09:10 PM' timestamp='1270429790' post='2248122']
Then tell them their options, you'll hear no complaints from me. But don't go around threatening to attack the raider and give the defender money.
[/quote]

Why not? Why should these guys whom are knowingly raiding and stealing from an individual whom has done them no wrong get that kind of courtesy? We'll be helping them the best way we can, and in most circumstances the only thing these guys will understand if force, as proven in this planet's history.

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[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='04 April 2010 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1270429791' post='2248123']
The Freedom of the Seas Pact deals with all raiders in the manner best available, not just the unaligned.
[/quote]

Okay that's fine, but the "manner best available" will differ from time to time and there's a huge difference telling a raid victim, "Hey comrade, there are people out there who love you. Here are some alliances that aren't into raidng, brother." and a different time telling a raider he's got one day to peace out or face the wrath of the FoS.

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[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='04 April 2010 - 09:10 PM' timestamp='1270429819' post='2248124']
sometimes even unaligned have friends. plus, there is the fact that a victim won't always have 3 unaligned hitting them. most likely they will have only one unaligned with 2 aligned. that is the issue with this that i have, it don't matter if FoS does get rid of the unaligned raider. all that will happen is some aligned raider will jump in immediately.
[/quote]

We don't just get rid of the unaligned raider. We inform them of their options regarding what alliances are out there while offering them temporary protection. The AA they can use for protection is Celestial Being Applicant. If any aligned raider decides to attack someone wearing that AA, then they will be handled.

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[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 April 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1270429790' post='2248122']
Then tell them their options, you'll hear no complaints from me. But don't go around threatening to attack the raider and give the defender money.
[/quote]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

sorry, this is just very amusing. you are basically saying that the raider has the right to attack whomever they want, but can't be attacked in return. sorry, that is just pathetic.

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[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 April 2010 - 09:14 PM' timestamp='1270430042' post='2248130']
Okay that's fine, but the "manner best available" will differ from time to time and there's a huge difference telling a raid victim, "Hey comrade, there are people out there who love you. Here are some alliances that aren't into raidng, brother." and a different time telling a raider he's got one day to peace out or face the wrath of the FoS.
[/quote]


Of course it differs from time to time, everyone is different and so are circumstances. Oh, I don't see what's wrong with telling a raider his thuggish actions might actually bring about some karma and get him hit.

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[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='04 April 2010 - 06:12 PM' timestamp='1270429942' post='2248127']
Why not? Why should these guys whom are knowingly raiding and stealing from an individual whom has done them no wrong get that kind of courtesy? We'll be helping them the best way we can, and in most circumstances the only thing these guys will understand if force, as proven in this planet's history.
[/quote]

Because basically you're making one of the few ways a nation can vent his pent up nerd rage into taboo.

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Extortion and wars declared over nothing but money and technology are considered wrong when viewed by the public arena on the alliance to alliance basis. What sense does it make to say that it is all of a suddenly acceptable because the nation is unaligned? Is it because they have no way to enforce their national dignity? This is especially dangerous when the powerful create their own standards on what it takes to be an "alliance". Is it 5 people united? 10 united? 20 united? How large much a group of peaceful nations be to earn their national dignity? Even more serious of a question is how large will that number become as alliances which rule through force become larger? Shall the number some day be 50?

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[quote name='New Frontier' date='04 April 2010 - 09:14 PM' timestamp='1270430055' post='2248132']
Which is where the CNARF comparisons come in.
[/quote]

We're not immediately attacking any raider indiscriminately, aligned or not. Therein was the biggest mistake CNARF made. Well that and hiding behind GATO. This is us standing up for what we believe in and putting our alliance out there for it.

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[quote name='New Frontier' date='04 April 2010 - 06:14 PM' timestamp='1270430055' post='2248132']
Which is where the CNARF comparisons come in.
[/quote]

How so? We're attacking someone who attacked an aligned (though temporary) member of CB. Should we not protect our Applicant AA?

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[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 April 2010 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1270430137' post='2248135']
Because basically you're making one of the few ways a nation can vent his pent up nerd rage into taboo.
[/quote]

that nation can still raid. they will know though that they could also be hit back for doing so. if all that is wanted is some pent up nerd rage to be vented, having more wars is the best way to do so. i honestly don't see what is wrong with attacking a raider.

what about those nations who simply want to build their nation? obviously, they have to just consign themselves to being raid victims to those who wish to nerd rage. far be it for the nerd rager to have to consign themselves to such a role as well.

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[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 April 2010 - 09:15 PM' timestamp='1270430137' post='2248135']
Because basically you're making one of the few ways a nation can vent his pent up nerd rage into taboo.
[/quote]

Your argument is really getting silly now.

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[quote name='iamwalrus' date='04 April 2010 - 06:18 PM' timestamp='1270430272' post='2248140']
Extortion and wars declared over nothing but money and technology are considered wrong when viewed by the public arena on the alliance to alliance basis. What sense does it make to say that it is all of a suddenly acceptable because the nation is unaligned? Is it because they have no way to enforce their national dignity? This is especially dangerous when the powerful create their own standards on what it takes to be an "alliance". Is it 5 people united? 10 united? 20 united? How large much a group of peaceful nations be to earn their national dignity? Even more serious of a question is how large will that number become as alliances which rule through force become larger? Shall the number some day be 50?
[/quote]

A lot of "tech raids" are declared for fun. Most of the time the only time a raid is more profitable then a tech deal is when the nation is abandoned.


[quote name='kulomascovia' date='04 April 2010 - 06:18 PM' timestamp='1270430292' post='2248142']
How so? We're attacking someone who attacked an aligned (though temporary) member of CB. Should we not protect our Applicant AA?
[/quote]

Umm no. Your leader just said it would extend to all raiders aligned or not. Maybe it's just me but that seems to me it will extend to all raids.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='04 April 2010 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1270430374' post='2248144']
what about those nations who simply want to build their nation? obviously, they have to just consign themselves to being raid victims to those who wish to nerd rage. far be it for the nerd rager to have to consign themselves to such a role as well.
[/quote]

Or they could join an alliance or find protection. I've said it once and I'll say it again because quite honestly it is the only real solution.

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='04 April 2010 - 06:20 PM' timestamp='1270430394' post='2248145']
Your argument is really getting silly now.
[/quote]

Well, maybe this is just me, but I've raided in the past because I've seen it as a way to gain some tech (a whole ten levels!) and then fight a nation when he strikes back (a fair fight? Not on my Planet Bob!). Gives you a way to release boredom without having to wait another six months for fighting in a curbstomp. Once again, and maybe this is just me :P, but I've found it more fun to fight a fair fight.

Edited by Mr Damsky
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[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='04 April 2010 - 06:15 PM' timestamp='1270430137' post='2248135']
Because basically you're making one of the few ways a nation can vent his pent up nerd rage into taboo.
[/quote]

Mr Damsky, we're not making it a toboo. There is too much raiding occurring at the time. So much that the first thing every nation should do is get an alliance. So much that the first thing every new alliance should do is get a protectorate. This was not the case a year or more ago. As I said before, small ns unaligned nations are getting raided at a rate of 50 raids a day in some instances. I would think that there is too much venting going on.

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