More peace

[Castles]

Well I guess the obligatory post by a TOOL must be made right about here. One TOOL post per 5 pages of debate seems to me a requirement.


[quote name='Xiphosis' date='27 February 2010 - 11:43 PM' timestamp='1267339619' post='2207830']
You say seven alliances but let's be realistic, it's 3 defensive wars for a few weeks. Not enough to drain any decent warchest.
[/quote]

Yeah if you leave out spying and such. But if it helps you justify then all is well.


[quote name='Tromp' date='28 February 2010 - 09:47 AM' timestamp='1267375838' post='2208413']
Yes, that's why coalitions exist(ed) amirite?

Seriously, you can stop pretending. You were not there just for your friends.
[/quote]

When I saw this quoted, actually the second line was only quoted and searching back through the 30 pages I did find the source and it does seem it was taken out of context. But I definitely want to clarify this.

The option to enter the war was put before the members. The only reason was to defend an ally that had come to our aid many times in the past and not just in war. We knew of the odds against us, we figured on the bandwagon parade, and we also knew it would be a long war. Our member voted over overwhelmingly to defend IRON. And even after the long war, there are none that complain about the decision, besides the ones that have chosen to leave TOOL.

As for the Reps, we accepted them and we will pay them.

But being what role precedence has on politics here on Planet Bob, the actions of MA and Nemesis, though they were outnumbered in their decision, cause me great concern. If the practice of demanding reps as the aggressive alliance continues then won't bandwagon-ing become a standard practice?

Need some growth? Join in on the bandwagon of a larger alliance.

Hopefully this fear is unfounded but it is something to consider.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='AirMe' date='28 February 2010 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1267401627' post='2209038']
We were told they would be the ONLY terms we would see for a long time.
[/quote]

and? again, read Crow's post as well as many of the other "these terms are acceptable because TOOL accepted them" posts. thus, obviously MK found it acceptable to take those terms and thus, those terms are in no way as harsh, draconian, ebil, and whatever else has been said on them. same goes for Athens terms or anyone else who received terms from NPO/Heg. every alliance that got "harsh" terms accepted them and by Crow's and other's posts, obviously if they were accepted, then the terms are not in any way harsh.

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' date='01 March 2010 - 11:00 AM' timestamp='1267398249' post='2208952']
TOOL staying the war alone tied up war slots that could have been used against their ally, IRON. It's really rather simple.

Sorry if by the time RIA was able to fully join the party, TOOL had already been fighting for how many weeks? RIA on the other hand had to deal with Argent, alone. Argent was praised, and deserved it, for their upper ranks. Guess where TOOL saw a lot of success?
[/quote]

Your facts seem to be a little off. RIA did not have to deal with Argent alone, Silence CRAP and VE all joined the party.
And I don't think TOOL were very effective at tying up Sparta's war slots since the only major counter I saw from them was against MA. They came into the war attacking Sparta to help out IRON but in reality they were so overwhelmed by all the other alliances they were engaged with that they were ineffective at defending IRON.

Argent peaced out for that reason. They were too tied up up other alliances to actually be able to engage the RIA sufficiently to protect TOOL. I don't know why TOOL didn't do the same. Tactically it would have been smarter to peace out once it was obvious they weren't able to achieve their purpose in the war. I'm sure everyone is saying how honourable it was for them to stay in but what is honourable about turtling and saving money for rebuilding without actually inflicting any damage on the enemy? That is self preservation and tactical thinking.

Also as an example in my initial rround of TOOL wars and the Argent counter I lost 5000 infra, mainly from Argent nations. In the second round of wars I engaged 1 Argent nation and 2 TOOL nations, all of who turtled and together managed to destroy about 500 infra. They didn't even bother lobbing nukes at me everyday, I was allowed out of nuclear anarchy twice while being continiously engaged in war. You tell me where the honour is in staying in a war if you won't actually put up a fight?

I'd like to call TOOL honourable but most of the comments I heard out of them was whining about how much damage they were taking from RIA members.

[AirMe]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='28 February 2010 - 07:29 PM' timestamp='1267403562' post='2209090']
and? again, read Crow's post as well as many of the other "these terms are acceptable because TOOL accepted them" posts. thus, obviously MK found it acceptable to take those terms and thus, those terms are in no way as harsh, draconian, ebil, and whatever else has been said on them. same goes for Athens terms or anyone else who received terms from NPO/Heg. every alliance that got "harsh" terms accepted them and by Crow's and other's posts, obviously if they were accepted, then the terms are not in any way harsh.
[/quote]

I am not actually arguing with you. I was only clarifying the actual position MK was in at the time. I cannot go as far to say that TOOL was not told that because I wasn't present in the negotiations.

[Castles]

[quote]I'd like to call TOOL honourable but most of the comments I heard out of them was whining about how much damage they were taking from RIA members.[/quote]

Logs or it didn't happen. Seriously. Whining? Really, I spend alot of time on IRC, whining was not the problem even when facing 7 alliances.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Castles

[TypoNinja]

One thing convinces me that the morale outrage crew is just spewing hot air above all else.

They refuse to do anything but complain.

TOOL was not forbidden outside aid, so until [url="http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp?Page=1&searchstring=All&search=The%20Order%20of%20Light"]this screen[/url] is filled with aid from your alliance to TOOL, your words are empty. If this is so heinous, prove it, show your support.

We've always hated the 'do something about it' line, but now you can, and nobodies implying you'll get nuked for doing it.

Or keep whining while doing nothing, and I'll keep pointing and laughing.

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='Ejayrazz' date='28 February 2010 - 11:19 AM' timestamp='1267384970' post='2208647']
Why weren't you stating just an openly bland statement as that when NPO was in rule and you were !@#$%*ing in the back channels?
Not comparing these terms to hegemony, but laughing at such a general statement.
[/quote]

Because NPO was launching offensive gangbangs, rather than facing defensive wars almost every 2-3 months. Somehow reps seem less appropriate when you're punching someones face in, but it's certainly warranted if you get jumped.

[quote name='Dan123123' date='28 February 2010 - 03:21 PM' timestamp='1267399518' post='2208995']
You pretty much want them to stop being friends with their friends... I just can't imagine how continually harsher reparations will accomplish that goal.[/quote]

You mistook my point, in so far as the white peace in Karma was meant to give them a chance to reconsider their friendships and find a new niche for themselves in the world. Not necc. with SF or CnG or FB or anyone, but something new that wouldn't just lead to the same sides. Now that they've proven incapable (or unwilling) to do so on multiple occasions, the intent we approach TOOL and others with by nature has to shift to eliminating them as military threats; not trying to be nice.

That's what I was driving at, sorry if it wasn't clear.

[quote]I mean, if you truly believe punishing an alliance for honoring its treaties will make them stop honoring its treaties, you might as well take it to its logical extreme. [/quote]

In this situation, it'd be punishment for piggy-backing on a preemptive war against an entire bloc. If it was as simple as honoring a treaty, it'd be a different conversation. TOOL didn't seem so keen on honoring treaties with our side when Karma rolled around.

[quote]EDIT: Or you could talk to them, get to know them, and try to create amiable relations. Perhaps they would be less keen on attacking GOD's allies if they liked you as opposed to hated you or even felt indifferent towards you?[/quote]

Something that's also been tried, and clearly considering this thread even exists, didn't work.

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='Castles' date='01 March 2010 - 12:37 PM' timestamp='1267404044' post='2209101']
Logs or it didn't happen. Seriously. Whining? Really, I spend alot of time on IRC, whining was not the problem even when facing 7 alliances.
[/quote]

Well here are a few examples I just plucked from the RIA boards.

[quote]Message: Yay, I'm your only target. You know, I haven't attacked you once and have gone from a top tier nation to this. I can't escape to peace mode because I apparently killed some relative of someone's in battle (I don't even play this game really! I just collect the taxes and pay bill!) or something. I have no airforce, no navy, no army, no missiles, and no money (literally on all account!). And I can't buy anything because I can't collect taxes (thanks to nukes) and I have to pay my bills before I can buy military or use it ( I am in attack-lock!). Since I can't pay my bills (I haven't in almost two weeks) this whole war could get me booted from the game for inactivity. Great. Seriously, why am I on everyone's target list? Why? Is it really a conspiracy? because no one else has had 8 people declare war on them.[/quote]

[quote]Subject: STOP ATTACKING ME
Message: AND LET ME GO INTO PEACE MODE. PLEASE.[/quote]

[Bob Janova]

[quote]reps ... [are] certainly warranted if you get jumped.[/quote]
Like Nemesis and MA ... oh, wait.

[Argin]

I'd just like to throw in my own two cents.

While I don't really think it's very honorable for alliances to be imposing reps on another alliance that was brought into the conflict via treaty I also think each alliance has the right to do what it wishes if they win. And by no means do I consider these draconian reps, harsh yes, but not draconian.

Edit: And again, best of luck to TOOL rebuilding and may you recover quickly. You were nothing but a pleasure to fight.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Argin

[Castles]

Well those two, Thunder, are unfortunate. Without knowing who sent them, its hard to determine whether or not its one of the 5 ghosts that we still have. Or if its one of the 50 that have left, one even taking refuge in NPO POW's camp.

But if your using them to make your decision about the character of TOOL. You better make sure you have none in your own alliance who would react the same way to being on 7 fronts.

I'm very confident about the character of TOOL. I hope you are as confident in the character RIA.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' date='28 February 2010 - 06:33 PM' timestamp='1267403799' post='2209094']
Your facts seem to be a little off. RIA did not have to deal with Argent alone, Silence CRAP and VE all joined the party.
And I don't think TOOL were very effective at tying up Sparta's war slots since the only major counter I saw from them was against MA. They came into the war attacking Sparta to help out IRON but in reality they were so overwhelmed by all the other alliances they were engaged with that they were ineffective at defending IRON.

Argent peaced out for that reason. They were too tied up up other alliances to actually be able to engage the RIA sufficiently to protect TOOL. I don't know why TOOL didn't do the same. Tactically it would have been smarter to peace out once it was obvious they weren't able to achieve their purpose in the war. I'm sure everyone is saying how honourable it was for them to stay in but what is honourable about turtling and saving money for rebuilding without actually inflicting any damage on the enemy? That is self preservation and tactical thinking.

Also as an example in my initial rround of TOOL wars and the Argent counter I lost 5000 infra, mainly from Argent nations. In the second round of wars I engaged 1 Argent nation and 2 TOOL nations, all of who turtled and together managed to destroy about 500 infra. They didn't even bother lobbing nukes at me everyday, I was allowed out of nuclear anarchy twice while being continiously engaged in war. You tell me where the honour is in staying in a war if you won't actually put up a fight?

I'd like to call TOOL honourable but most of the comments I heard out of them was whining about how much damage they were taking from RIA members.
[/quote]

RIA had one war. That's what I meant by alone. TOOL had multiple fronts, offensive and defensive. TOOL's initial declaration of war is what tied up slots the most effectively with nukes at their maximum stockpiles, etc. By the time others pounced it became defensive slots which tied up offensive slots.

The honor of staying in a war is that 2-3 nations don't effectively represent the entire alliance's contribution. You got lucky and found some easy nations to fight congrats. There were plenty of others willing and able to keep soldiers on the field for your enjoyment.

Also, where has anyone from TOOL been whining about damage from RIA? If anything RIA has heard praise in this topic. I certainly thank you for not exploiting my former alliance.

EDIT: Saw your new post about the whining. Honestly its an extremely small percentage of TOOL members you're basing your opinion off of. I'll bet none of the logs you have on your forum are from active members.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Zoomzoomzoom

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='28 February 2010 - 07:42 PM' timestamp='1267404355' post='2209106']
One thing convinces me that the morale outrage crew is just spewing hot air above all else.

They refuse to do anything but complain.

TOOL was not forbidden outside aid, so until [url="http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp?Page=1&searchstring=All&search=The%20Order%20of%20Light"]this screen[/url] is filled with aid from your alliance to TOOL, your words are empty. If this is so heinous, prove it, show your support.

We've always hated the 'do something about it' line, but now you can, and nobodies implying you'll get nuked for doing it.

Or keep whining while doing nothing, and I'll keep pointing and laughing.
[/quote]

You know its members of VE and your allies who are also outraged here in large numbers. So will VE be standing up and helping pay Sparta or will you pointing and lauging at your own members? Maybe you should figure out what is going on before you bash your own membership and allies again.

[Irish Wolf]

[quote name='clownbag' date='28 February 2010 - 01:39 PM' timestamp='1267364573' post='2208216']
To our opponents who were honourable with peace terms, thank you and good luck. 0/

To our opponents who were not so honourable with peace terms, and who frankly disgust me, this will not be forgotten.
[/quote]

Congrats on peace Uncle CB.. may your memory never fade.

[SpoiL]

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='28 February 2010 - 07:42 PM' timestamp='1267404355' post='2209106']
One thing convinces me that the morale outrage crew is just spewing hot air above all else.

They refuse to do anything but complain.

TOOL was not forbidden outside aid, so until [url="http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp?Page=1&searchstring=All&search=The%20Order%20of%20Light"]this screen[/url] is filled with aid from your alliance to TOOL, your words are empty. If this is so heinous, prove it, show your support.

We've always hated the 'do something about it' line, but now you can, and nobodies implying you'll get nuked for doing it.

Or keep whining while doing nothing, and I'll keep pointing and laughing.
[/quote]

You are silly. Outrage over ridiculous terms =/= supporting or giving a flying foot about TOOL.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Tromp' date='28 February 2010 - 09:07 AM' timestamp='1267377068' post='2208437']
The argument Lusitan was making was that TFD, among many, were "just" in this war to defend their friends.
That argument falls flat on it's face when you proclaim to be part of a coalition. This way, his alliance, like all others on TOP/IRON side of the war, made the cause of TOP/IRON theirs.
[/quote]

What? No they didn't. You can can disagree with your allies but still defend them because well...they're your allies.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='The Big Bad' date='28 February 2010 - 08:00 PM' timestamp='1267405425' post='2209126']
You know its members of VE and your allies who are also outraged here in large numbers. So will VE be standing up and helping pay Sparta or will you pointing and lauging at your own members? Maybe you should figure out what is going on before you bash your own membership and allies again.
[/quote]

Large numbers? You really can't ever apply that to anything on the OWF, we almost never see large numbers from anyone posting, let alone agreeing.

And as a matter of fact. Check that aid list. There is aid from VE to TOOL post war. How about that. We did the nuking but we've still done more to help TOOL in the after math than everybody here whining about reps. That's pretty god damn sad if you ask me.

Sure its only one aidslot (last I looked anyway) but what do you think that nation who just received it appreciates more, the 3 mil he just got, or the 30 pages of faux moral outrage posted here.

Edit:

[quote name='SpoiL' date='28 February 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1267406015' post='2209136']
You are silly. Outrage over ridiculous terms =/= supporting or giving a flying foot about TOOL.
[/quote]


Of course it does, if these terms are as bad as they would have us believe they should be opposed on principle, regardless of who's on the receiving end of them. Anyone truly outraged over it should be doing what they can to minimize the heinous treatment TOOL is receiving.

Edited March 1, 2010 by TypoNinja

[Neuronia]

Bad show, LoSS gov't- should've asked for 2000 soldiers!

[Lord GVChamp]

[quote name='The Big Bad' date='28 February 2010 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1267405425' post='2209126']
You know its members of VE and your allies who are also outraged here in large numbers. So will VE be standing up and helping pay Sparta or will you pointing and lauging at your own members? Maybe you should figure out what is going on before you bash your own membership and allies again.
[/quote]
I can say very openly that I feel absolutely no animosity towards Typoninja at all, even though he might lump me in with the "moral outrage" crowd. On the contrary, I quite like VE government giving people like me and Bob Janova the right to say what we want on the forums, as opposed to some other alliances.

[SpoiL]

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='28 February 2010 - 08:12 PM' timestamp='1267406139' post='2209141']
Of course it does, if these terms are as bad as they would have us believe they should be opposed on principle, regardless of who's on the receiving end of them. Anyone truly outraged over it should be doing what they can to minimize the heinous treatment TOOL is receiving.
[/quote]

No, it doesn't. So, aid Sparta if they're so outraged? You truly are silly.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Lord GVChamp' date='01 March 2010 - 01:22 AM' timestamp='1267406741' post='2209152']
I can say very openly that I feel absolutely no animosity towards Typoninja at all, even though he might lump me in with the "moral outrage" crowd. On the contrary, I quite like VE government giving people like me and Bob Janova the right to say what we want on the forums, as opposed to some other alliances.
[/quote]

Ha! You will rue the day you learned to formulate your own educated opinion!

Also, I am more indifferent than anything else, but I guess philosophically I lean a wee bit more towards GVC's end of the spectrum on the issue as opposed to Typo's...perhaps we need a civil war, no?

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='28 February 2010 - 08:12 PM' timestamp='1267406139' post='2209141']
Large numbers? You really can't ever apply that to anything on the OWF, we almost never see large numbers from anyone posting, let alone agreeing.

And as a matter of fact. Check that aid list. There is aid from VE to TOOL post war. How about that. We did the nuking but we've still done more to help TOOL in the after math than everybody here whining about reps. That's pretty god damn sad if you ask me.

Sure its only one aidslot (last I looked anyway) but what do you think that nation who just received it appreciates more, the 3 mil he just got, or the 30 pages of faux moral outrage posted here.

Edit:
Of course it does, if these terms are as bad as they would have us believe they should be opposed on principle, regardless of who's on the receiving end of them. Anyone truly outraged over it should be doing what they can to minimize the heinous treatment TOOL is receiving.
[/quote]
I think its mostly people think those getting the reps don't deserve them, but I know how peace talks can be on wanting to reach an agreement despite differing views on reps, so VE's position in agreeing to it but not asking for reps yourselves is understandable.

[Argin]

[quote name='Lord GVChamp' date='28 February 2010 - 05:22 PM' timestamp='1267406741' post='2209152']
I can say very openly that I feel absolutely no animosity towards Typoninja at all, even though he might lump me in with the "moral outrage" crowd. On the contrary, I quite like VE government giving people like me and Bob Janova the right to say what we want on the forums, as opposed to some other alliances.
[/quote]

I echo this sentiment, while I hold my own opinion I still respect all in VE who may disagree.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Lord GVChamp' date='28 February 2010 - 08:22 PM' timestamp='1267406741' post='2209152']
I can say very openly that I feel absolutely no animosity towards Typoninja at all, even though he might lump me in with the "moral outrage" crowd. On the contrary, I quite like VE government giving people like me and Bob Janova the right to say what we want on the forums, as opposed to some other alliances.
[/quote]

I use the term as a blanket statement, I fully admit there are some people who genuinely do feel this is wrong, but I feel the vast majority of people complaining over terms are being disingenuous when doing so and my comments are largely directed at them, those who are taking a 'moral stand' out of political expediency rather than true conviction.

I leave it to each individual to decide which group they fall into.

VE is a diverse alliance, the general theme of this discussion (and just about any other major events for that matter) get mirrored on our IRC and in our forums. We are rarely unanimous on anything as a membership, and it is this diversity that makes us strong. I would frankly be worried the day all 300 of us agreed on something, it'd be damn spooky.

[Deadshot]

Pretty harsh terms in my opinion, but whatever. The joke terms about beer reviews and baking things and dumb essays are getting kind of retarded now.