Unimportant Announcement

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Ejayrazz' date='21 February 2010 - 11:18 PM' timestamp='1266812314' post='2196132']
Not agreeing with the complainers, but not agreeing with this. Last thing we need is old NPO stupefied rhetoric, because appliance only goes so far when people begin abusing it and using former-logical reasonings not applicable within the given situation(s).
[/quote]
No. Perhaps my second comment on this illustrates my point better. I was not attempting to state in any way, shape or form tacit support for Sparta.

[Lord GVChamp]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' date='21 February 2010 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1266812167' post='2196121']
Ultimately, The Legion could have said no. Complaining that Sparta et al did something bad by demanding and getting reps doesn't make a lot of sense to me. You don't have to agree with the reps themselves but it is up to The Legion whether or not it was worth it. Evidently it was.
[/quote]
I do not usually rely on witty sayings, but this is one of those cases where might does not make right. Sparta having the ability to EZI Legion does not mean Sparta are good guys for making them pay 40k tech instead of EZI'ing them.

[kulomascovia]

Something I forgot to ask Typoninja: if the reps were because of Legion's alleged "shenanigans" towards sparta, then why did other alliances get reps as well?

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='21 February 2010 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1266812131' post='2196117']
Yes, it's clear that we do not support Legion's attacks on us, since ya know, we were defending our allies from an aggressive strike.

The moral outrage...
[/quote]

Oh? But isn't that the Legion's position as well? Weren't they defending their allies? You're both in the same boat. Would you rather you get reps for helping your allies?

[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='21 February 2010 - 08:17 PM' timestamp='1266812229' post='2196128']
Legion attacked Sparta, Legion is surrendering. If Legion had won the war they set out to win, then maybe white peace could have been achieved. My personal opinion is that those who declare war on us should be given an lesson to not attempt to hurt my fellow Spartans in the future.
[/quote]

They had a treaty to follow. Would you support their decision to forgo their treaty obligation?

[pezstar]

[quote name='Gunnar Griffin' date='21 February 2010 - 11:22 PM' timestamp='1266812569' post='2196154']
If the logs changed so many opinions by the way. Can I see them? No one showed them in the other thread, which the event was relevant; yet you're showing them through PMs to people now. I'd like to see the logs in the open; if they are such a mind-changer.
[/quote]

They showed the logs in which they claimed Legion surrendered in that thread. They were very clearly easily misunderstood logs.

[Bernkastel]

[quote name='Gopherbashi' date='21 February 2010 - 11:22 PM' timestamp='1266812546' post='2196153']
I believe it works out to $1.2b (at $3m/100t), but I do agree with you in that these reparations could be described as overkill.
[/quote]

TOOL will clearly be paying close to that too probably, knowing Sparta and all.

[Ellis]

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' date='22 February 2010 - 04:19 PM' timestamp='1266812363' post='2196136']
I'm not one to follow your posting much so I assume you're correct. Like I said, I said I may be wrong but drawing connections where they are makes on sense. Either one, you forgot to address my other point. You keep preaching we took twice the reps we took. I'd like to see you address your mistake.
[/quote]

NPO always got blamed for all 14k of Athens reps and all of MK's 82k tech, even though they didn't receive them all.

I recall a fair few Spartans doing the accusing, as well.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Ellis

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='Gopherbashi' date='21 February 2010 - 11:22 PM' timestamp='1266812546' post='2196153']
I believe it works out to $1.2b (at $3m/100t), but I do agree with you in that these reparations could be described as overkill.
[/quote]
If we were asking them from one or two nations without a war chest, maybe.

This is a 300+ man alliance - and, believe it or not, some of them have war chests.

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='Jrenster' date='21 February 2010 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1266812379' post='2196138']
The reps being paid are simply ludicrous. Total, it's about $112 billion (my math may be off). Punishing them this harshly just for trying to be loyal is simply outrageous.
[/quote]
Maybe a [i]little bit[/i] off.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Lord GVChamp' date='21 February 2010 - 11:23 PM' timestamp='1266812614' post='2196161']
I do not usually rely on witty sayings, but this is one of those cases where might does not make right. Sparta having the ability to EZI Legion does not mean Sparta are good guys for making them pay 40k tech instead of EZI'ing them.
[/quote]
You are correct, but it doesn't automatically make them bad guys either when Legion did have alternatives, including not being jackasses to their opponents during negotiations. If they had issued an apology and fought a couple more days I doubt the terms would have been as harsh as they are honestly. This was an emotional response to a highly charged situation and I personally think they agreed too easily. But that is just my opinion. Legion thought it was fair so they accepted the terms.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='Bernkastel' date='21 February 2010 - 11:24 PM' timestamp='1266812677' post='2196167']
TOOL will clearly be paying close to that too probably, knowing Sparta and all.
[/quote]
Or you could dismiss yourself and leave the mindless speculation to the pros.

Sparta is ruining the game, I'm sorry, it's Tulak's fault, obviously.

[LucasSnow]

[quote name='tamerlane' date='21 February 2010 - 11:20 PM' timestamp='1266812457' post='2196145']
. The ridiculous reps came from agreeing to surrender then not agreeing to surrender and making SPARTA -who should not have posted the thread until they got a final verdict w. sigs- look like fools. This is not surprising for an enemy who obviously had no respect for them and snubbed their noses at every turn.
[/quote]

I still find it hilarious that "Sparta" posted said thread. Maybe you should have read a bit closer. We took the Blame for it anyways, who cares, but that's not even what the reps are for. I'd suggest a query to Hyperion for you.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='21 February 2010 - 08:22 PM' timestamp='1266812520' post='2196150']
I see your point.

We are definitely too cruel to have given them an easy alternative to getting pounded in to the ground.

[/quote]

It's an easier alternative but it's not exactly easy.

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='Proko' date='21 February 2010 - 11:21 PM' timestamp='1266812519' post='2196149']
I don't have a personal connection to the alliances attached to this announcement, and I still think this announcement and decision are stupid.
[/quote]

I don't even know if you were trying to argue against my post or just trying to be witty. I'm not sure why you quoted me like I said you had to be connected to an alliance to have strong opinions about something related to it.

[Proko]

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='21 February 2010 - 11:25 PM' timestamp='1266812716' post='2196170']
If we were asking them from one or two nations without a war chest, maybe.

This is a 300+ man alliance - and, believe it or not, some of them have war chests.
[/quote]

I don't think the quantity is the issue. If you asked them for 4000 tech instead of 40,000 I would still think this is wrong.

[Bob]

[quote name='Ellis' date='21 February 2010 - 11:24 PM' timestamp='1266812687' post='2196168']
NPO always got blamed for all 14k of Athens reps and all of MK's 82k tech, even though they didn't receive them all.
[/quote]
I am not clear as to the context here, but most of Athens reps were to NPO. In terms of MK, NPO basically forced alliances to demand reparations. Echelon, and VE had both previously told MK they would not be requesting them, but then magically they appeared when it came time to negotiate, to the distress of MK. Additionally, the majority of the reparations MK paid were to NPO as well.

[Gunnar Griffin]

[quote name='pezstar' date='21 February 2010 - 11:24 PM' timestamp='1266812650' post='2196166']
They showed the logs in which they claimed Legion surrendered in that thread. They were very clearly easily misunderstood logs.
[/quote]
I remember Pezstar. I'm just peeved that if those are their only evidence, why don't they post them here? Is it because the evidence may be weak?

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Gunnar Griffin' date='22 February 2010 - 04:22 AM' timestamp='1266812569' post='2196154']
If the logs changed so many opinions by the way. Can I see them? No one showed them in the other thread when people repeatedly asked for them; yet you're showing them through PMs to people now. I'd like to see the logs in the open; if they are such a mind-changer.
[/quote]

[quote]
[2010-02-12 01:04:00] <Feibelman> hyper doesnt have two braincells to rub together
[2010-02-12 01:04:08] <Necronomis|Legion> well, that's good
[2010-02-12 01:04:13] <Necronomis|Legion> if you rubbed two together, you'd have none
[2010-02-12 01:04:19] <Necronomis|Legion> they'd explodddeded
[2010-02-12 01:04:26] <Hyperion[Sparta]> so legion
[2010-02-12 01:04:36] <Hyperion[Sparta]> how do you expect to win with 5 million of your NS being under 15k
[2010-02-12 01:04:38] * Necronomis|Legion omnomnoms Hyperion
[2010-02-12 01:04:39] <Hyperion[Sparta]> srsly...how
[2010-02-12 01:04:49] <Necronomis|Legion> nom
[2010-02-12 01:04:55] <Feibelman> by bending your mother over and....
[2010-02-12 01:05:00] <Necronomis|Legion> mmm. . .
[2010-02-12 01:05:01] <Necronomis|Legion> crushing her
[2010-02-12 01:05:03] <Gunnar> Hyperion, how do you expect to actually be a competent government member?
[2010-02-12 01:05:08] <Feibelman> CURSHING HER
[2010-02-12 01:05:11] <Assarax> <@Feibelman> by bending your mother over and.... <--- that
[2010-02-12 01:05:17] <Gunnar> that's right, it's impossible[/quote]

Feel better? Does that ring a bell now? [i]You were there[/i] after all.

I've said it to others and I'll say it here now - [b]You do not screw with me about my mother. ever.[/b]

[Leigon]

[quote name='Jrenster' date='22 February 2010 - 05:19 AM' timestamp='1266812379' post='2196138']
The reps being paid are simply ludicrous. Total, it's about $112 billion (my math may be off). Punishing them this harshly just for trying to be loyal is simply outrageous.
[/quote]

Yeh well you added 3 zeros there. Really those reps are supposed to be high? Someone mentioned 6,7% of their tech being involved. Now I din't check that. But I mean really? That's not a lot.
After the fallout during the first peace negotiations I'd rather have exspected more than less.

Oh well. Enjoy your peace Legion. You're the only ones accepting these reps with some dignity.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='21 February 2010 - 11:27 PM' timestamp='1266812849' post='2196177']
It's an easier alternative but it's not exactly easy.
[/quote]
It's not very hard, unless their economics team is incompetent.

Not to mention, they have until we end the fight with TOOL and IRON to prepare. That'll be a few more weeks or something.

Edited February 22, 2010 by wilhelm the demented

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='Ellis' date='21 February 2010 - 11:24 PM' timestamp='1266812687' post='2196168']
NPO always got blamed for all 14k of Athens reps and all of MK's 82k tech, even though they didn't receive them all.

I recall a fair few Spartans doing the accusing, as well.
[/quote]
Might have had something to do with the fact that all of that 82k ended up going to NPO.

[Kortal]

[quote name='Bernkastel' date='21 February 2010 - 11:24 PM' timestamp='1266812677' post='2196167']
TOOL will clearly be paying close to that too probably, knowing Sparta and all.
[/quote]
[i]Doubling[/i] the blow to their reputation

*sigh* If only sparta realized what they were doing to themselves..

[pezstar]

[quote name='Gunnar Griffin' date='21 February 2010 - 11:28 PM' timestamp='1266812905' post='2196183']
I remember Pezstar. I'm just peeved that if those are their only evidence, why don't they post them here? Is it because the evidence may be weak?
[/quote]

Wdit: see posted logs above. Uncalled for? Sure. Worth this? No. It's a war. Smack talking happens.

Edited February 22, 2010 by pezstar

[Proko]

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' date='21 February 2010 - 11:28 PM' timestamp='1266812880' post='2196178']
I don't even know if you were trying to argue against my post or just trying to be witty. I'm not sure why you quoted me like I said you had to be connected to an alliance to have strong opinions about something related to it.
[/quote]

I don't think Pezstar is posting as she is because of her former ties, and it seems she and I are in agreement about the reparations terms. It was no play for wit, just a comparison of Pezstar's opinion to my own, in lieu of our different backgrounds concerning the Legion (she is a former member, whereas I don't think I've ever really spoken to someone in the alliance).

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Bernkastel' date='22 February 2010 - 04:24 AM' timestamp='1266812677' post='2196167']
TOOL will clearly be paying close to that too probably, knowing Sparta and all.
[/quote]
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=81383&view=findpost&p=2195899"]TOOL did not portray the type of characteristics that made the front against Legion decide to exact reps (as far as I am aware, that is). Normally, I don't agree with reps to peripheral alliances, however in this particular instance I don't really see a major issue with it, as the amount is not huge or anything. I would think that if Legion did not conduct the whole war like some sort of bizarrely angry yet inept three ring circus, this would simply be an off-white peace.[/url]

Edited February 22, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Lord GVChamp]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' date='21 February 2010 - 10:26 PM' timestamp='1266812761' post='2196172']
You are correct, but it doesn't automatically make them bad guys either when Legion did have alternatives, including not being jackasses to their opponents during negotiations. If they had issued an apology and fought a couple more days I doubt the terms would have been as harsh as they are honestly. This was an emotional response to a highly charged situation and I personally think they agreed too easily. But that is just my opinion. Legion thought it was fair so they accepted the terms.
[/quote]
This is true. 40,000 tech is only about 15% of Legion's total tech, and will take 800 aid slots. For an alliance of over 350 nations, these terms should not terribly hard to fulfill.

Still, I am almost always against any reparations payments, and my personal thought is that the people who impose them have as much a responsibility to explain their justification for imposing them as they do declaring war.