Moridin Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 [quote name='Lord Brendan' date='06 February 2010 - 07:38 PM' timestamp='1265513908' post='2165905'] Seems kind of stupid to me. They had a choice between fighting a roughly 1:1 war (which I think they would have won in the end), or asking you to join, causing a very predictable escalation ultimately leading to the current 3:2 sides. [/quote] Stickmen declared war on Polar the same night NSO declared war on FOK; had NSO not entered, the odds would have been against Polar, especially with the number of recruits PC was getting from various sympathetic alliances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Brendan Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 [quote name='Moridin' date='06 February 2010 - 10:40 PM' timestamp='1265514039' post='2165911'] Stickmen declared war on Polar the same night NSO declared war on FOK; had NSO not entered, the odds would have been against Polar, especially with the number of recruits PC was getting from various sympathetic alliances. [/quote] 18M vs 21M is way better than 110M vs 200M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin32891 Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 [quote name='Lord Brendan' date='06 February 2010 - 10:44 PM' timestamp='1265514257' post='2165916'] 18M vs 21M is way better than 110M vs 200M. [/quote] So now that you just lost the "who wanted to escalate the war argument" you blame how the odds were? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 [quote name='Lord Brendan' date='06 February 2010 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1265514257' post='2165916'] 18M vs 21M is way better than 110M vs 200M. [/quote] Polar topped off around 15M before the plunge; it certainly was never 18M. At any rate if Polar hadn't taken peace and kept its allies (STA, NV, etc) on their original side, the war would be reasonably close in terms of total NS, I'd say as close or closer than Polar vs \m/, PC, FOK, and Stickmen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Curzon Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Moridin' date='06 February 2010 - 10:18 PM' timestamp='1265512687' post='2165868'] It was one day later. Also, the 'summary' is incorrect in that Polar never surrendered to \m/. \m/ accepted the terms Polar had proposed, not the other way around. [/quote] No, actually it was less than 2 hours, it was about 45 minutes later. [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79441"]TOP Dec[/url] Posted 28 January 2010 - 11:47 PM [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79454"]NpO peace[/url] Posted 29 January 2010 - 12:33 AM If you tell time like the rest of us, that is 46 minutes later. Nice try though. Edit: grammar fail Edited February 7, 2010 by Lord Curzon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ertyy Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 [quote name='Krack' date='06 February 2010 - 06:03 PM' timestamp='1265508219' post='2165703'] You said "I guess you folks on that front would have preferred no help at all and eating that many more nukes, huh?" And my point was, you know damn well that Gramlins didn't just hop in to help out its best buddies on that front, they did so because they belatedly came to the same conclusion that everyone else did: If Gramlins didn't participate, the Karma side would definitely lose and the next target would be ... tada ... Gramlins! And at that point, there'd be absolutely nobody to help them. So it wasn't Gramlins helping because they are the most generous righteous people on Planet Bob, they fought for the same reason everyone else did - because if they didn't, [u]they were next[/u]. Don't get me wrong ... I generally like the Gramlins, and I think they are pretty good people. But you can save the "We came in during the Karma War and saved everyone's behinds out of the goodness of our hearts" bit because if it wasn't for your treaty with FARK (and thus ties to Super Friends), Gramlins would have been the one getting rolled instead of VE/OV in the first place. And FARK and the Super Friends stuck by the Gramlins for the same reason the Gramlins fought in the Karma War, [b]primarily[/b], because if you didn't you were dead anyways and, [b]secondarily[/b], because they are all (SFs+Gramlins+Sparta+VE) relatively good people that get along. [/quote] OMG. Someone figured out that we keep our own interests in mind. Kill him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Brendan Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 (edited) [quote name='kevin32891' date='06 February 2010 - 10:48 PM' timestamp='1265514501' post='2165919'] So now that you just lost the "who wanted to escalate the war argument" you blame how the odds were? [/quote] Grub has been claiming all along that he was trying to prevent exclamation. He had a choice between fighting a slightly uphill (certainly winnable) battle on his own or escalating the war and hoping the odds improved. He chose escalation. The statement [quote name='AlmightyGrub' date='02 February 2010 - 12:31 AM' timestamp='1265088712' post='2152238'] 6. At absolutely no time did Polaris want this war to escalate, [/quote] is therefore a lie. Grub had no problem with escalation, or he wouldn't have asked you to join in. Edited February 7, 2010 by Lord Brendan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Lord Curzon' date='06 February 2010 - 07:51 PM' timestamp='1265514683' post='2165921'] No actually it was less than 2 hours, actually it was about 45 minutes later. [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79441"]TOP Dec[/url] Posted 28 January 2010 - 11:47 PM [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79454"]NpO peace[/url] Posted 29 January 2010 - 12:33 AM If you tell time like the rest of us, that is 46 minutes later. Nice try though. [/quote] I'm not disputing when peace was declared on the \m/ front relative to when war was declared on the C&G front. Polar informed TOP and IRON that it would not honor its MK treaty if TOP/Duckroll were to attack them roughly a day before the actual attack occurred, which means that, thanks to your extraordinary ability to tell time, part one of the 'summary' did indeed happen about a day before peace was declared. [quote name='Lord Brendan' date='06 February 2010 - 07:56 PM' timestamp='1265514980' post='2165930'] Grub has been claiming all along that he was trying to prevent exclamation. He had a choice between fighting a slightly uphill (certainly winnable) battle on his own or escalating the war and hoping the odds improved. The statement is therefore a lie. Grub had no problem with escalation, or he wouldn't have asked you to join in. [/quote] I believe what Grub is trying to convey is that while he did not wish for the war to escalate, he did so out of necessity. We may disagree about just how uphill the battle was or would have been, but saying he was lying when his point was that he took no pleasure in escalating the war is a misrepresentation. Edited February 7, 2010 by Moridin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Curzon Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 [quote name='Moridin' date='06 February 2010 - 10:56 PM' timestamp='1265515002' post='2165931'] I'm not disputing when peace was declared on the \m/ front relative to when war was declared on the C&G front. Polar informed TOP and IRON that it would not honor its MK treaty if TOP/Duckroll were to attack them roughly a day before the actual attack occurred, which means that, thanks to your extraordinary ability to tell time, part one of the 'summary' did indeed happen about a day before peace was declared. [/quote] Fair enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krack Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Ertyy' date='06 February 2010 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1265514923' post='2165926'] OMG. Someone figured out that we keep our own interests in mind. Kill him! [/quote] Hey, I'm not the one in the thread acting as though the my alliance (or former alliance) didn't benefit from fighting in the Karma War and only participated because we felt bad about our buddies and wanted to help out. Gramlins fought for the same reason everybody else on the Karma side did ... because if they didn't they wouldn't exist in their present form today. There's nothing wrong with that (in fact it's a really good reason to fight in a war), but let's not pretend the war wasn't really beneficial to Gramlins and that they entered against their best interests only to help out friendly alliances. This self-righteous crap, even from alliances and people I generally like (Gramlins and Janova, respectively - and I realize Janova doesn't speak for them presently), is nauseating. Edited February 7, 2010 by Krack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Brendan Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Moridin' date='06 February 2010 - 10:48 PM' timestamp='1265514537' post='2165920'] Polar topped off around 15M before the plunge; it certainly was never 18M. At any rate if Polar hadn't taken peace and kept its allies (STA, NV, etc) on their original side, the war would be reasonably close in terms of total NS, I'd say as close or closer than Polar vs \m/, PC, FOK, and Stickmen. [/quote] You're right, my bad, I was looking at the stats from when NSO entered. 15M vs 21M is admittedly a bit steeper, but still not entirely hopeless given NpO's impressive wonders. Polar would have been assured an easy peace even if they lost given their mutual allies with their opponents, and assuming \m/ would have agreed to peace after awhile anyway (a very big assumption, I'll admit), they might have gotten out with their pride intact as well. I don't believe it's fair to say that escalation was a necessity; it was simply a choice among others. Edited February 7, 2010 by Lord Brendan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eztoindajar Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 Im waiting for duckroll to declare on NpO... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombie Glaucon Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 [quote name='Schattenmann' date='06 February 2010 - 01:51 PM' timestamp='1265485902' post='2164950'] Would you agree that if you bite someone's ankles enough they'll fall over and then you can bite their face? [/quote] Sure, if you actually have any teeth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwoody Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 [quote name='eztoindajar' date='06 February 2010 - 10:27 PM' timestamp='1265516829' post='2165988'] Im waiting for duckroll to declare on NpO... [/quote] You do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 I've no idea what Grämlins' decision to enter Karma (which wasn't for the reasons you say, but that's for another topic) has to do with where that discussion started, which was relating to TOP's refusal to sign up to the Echelon peace terms and instead to take a separate peace. Grämlins never had to make that choice because the other alliances on the IRON front were reasonable and did not demand ridiculous terms that we couldn't sign up to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evitressa Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 So wait, you're saying he... *gasp* LIED TO YOU? HE LIED TO YOU IN MY CN? It's a political simulator. What the hell do you expect? This happens in real politics too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remaliat Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 (edited) I will say this to the relationship of TOP and NpO. There was a rapid and changing relationship in the months before this war, in the end the only thing that truly prevented us from signing a military agreement was the fact that The Order of the Paradox maintained it's protection of the Sweet Oblivion, and the New Polar Order maintained it's alliances with the New Sith Order and the GOONS. Our relationship was on very good terms before this war, and the fact that the Mushroom Kingdom even requested that we join in against TOP put us in such a difficult position that no matter which path we chose we were going to be attacked mercilessly on these forums, and from both sides in this war. Did we make the right decision? I don't think so, but it doesn't change the fact that we did have a MDoAP with both Greenland Republic and the Mushroom Kingdom and our close friends at STA had a military agreement with MK and Vanguard as well. Had the declarations of war happened in a manner that respected the treaties that the New Polar Order possessed this whole war would be a completely different struggle. In the end I can only hope that The Order of the Paradox can understand what has happened here and perhaps at a later time we can begin to talk like we at one point used to. To anyone who wants to discuss this issue in more depth please find me in our public channel, I would be delighted to talk. edit: Grammar Edited February 7, 2010 by Remaliat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kortal Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 excellent post from polar out of nowhere. I disagree as far as implied motivations are concerned, but great post nonetheless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saber Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 [quote name='Bob Janova' date='07 February 2010 - 01:51 PM' timestamp='1265547076' post='2166730'] I've no idea what Grämlins' decision to enter Karma (which wasn't for the reasons you say, but that's for another topic) has to do with where that discussion started, which was relating to TOP's refusal to sign up to the Echelon peace terms and instead to take a separate peace. Grämlins never had to make that choice because the other alliances on the IRON front were reasonable and did not demand ridiculous terms that we couldn't sign up to. [/quote] I really do not see the problem with us giving separate peace to Echelon. Our intention was to not force our opinion on how peace terms should be on alliances that fought alongside us and some of which had real legitimate concerns and interests in the peace terms. TOP on other hand never had any significant problems with Echelon and we just did not want to try and get peace terms we found acceptable. Our decision to white peace with Echelon came after Echelon was soundly defeated and after there was no chance at all of things turning around. We just did not want to sign on any kind of humiliating/joke terms as we really saw them as demeaning and beneath any alliance. First terms that were delivered to us were such and we just said we'll let others do their thing, the war is won and we'll separate peace. It was not done in a malicious manner. Instead I'd say our intentions were noble (not interfering in Echelon terms). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 That was my point about 2 pages back before it got derailed onto Grämlins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saber Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 [quote name='Bob Janova' date='07 February 2010 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1265555797' post='2166826'] That was my point about 2 pages back before it got derailed onto Grämlins [/quote] So many posts, so little time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordiga Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 [quote name='bzelger' date='06 February 2010 - 04:09 PM' timestamp='1265436582' post='2163446'] [img]http://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/negativeman-55f.png[/img] This doesn't give me that warm happy feeling I've lost and been looking for. [/quote] I'm pretty much of the same mind as you on this entire thing, Bzelger. Just so you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anu Drake Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 [img]http://ascelios.com/McCroskey/PicLens/srp14/pl_images/blu_gazaStrip.png[/img] This is why we're fighting 9 alliances? For serious? Grub, you betrayed TOP, you betrayed everyone that had just stood up to fight for you just before that as well. Glad we could see our nations getting destroyed for the fun of it. /actually it has been pretty fun so far, but this makes it all feel so unnecessary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langa99 Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 Good Job Grub, good job. I wish TOP luck in their endeavours against whoever they might come up against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaBuc Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 I just came back yesterday to find the absolute most $%&@ed up war in the history of CyberNations. That is REALLY saying something. I've seen UJW, WotC, Karma, and the Almost War, and this is 10 times more $%&@ed up than all of them put together. I still can't figure out what the hell is going on. I'm definitely going with the "nuke people until it makes sense again" strategy. You all suck. -Bama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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