Imperial Decree - New Polar

[Blue Lightning]

If you check over this thread and the other one, there's probably a fair amount of criticism aimed towards Polar/Grub from TOP members. Though we try to stick by a general policy of not criticising others in public, so anything really meaty would be said in private.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

Poor form, Grub.

[AlmightyGrub]

[quote name='Mussolandia' date='09 February 2010 - 04:18 AM' timestamp='1265653116' post='2168890']
*cough* coup *cough*
[/quote]

*cough* Bring it?.... please *cough*


[quote name='Mathias' date='09 February 2010 - 06:47 AM' timestamp='1265662054' post='2169035']
Grub, I don't know how you can justify canceling on GR, and I don't want to know. I can't believe what you've done to Polaris.

Although I can understand why MK didn't receive the same treatment as GR. The situations are [i]so[/i] different.
[/quote]

I can justify anything I have done, I just choose not to do so publicly. GR are aware of the reasons, this should have been done shortly after Bob left the alliance in all fairness. MK treaty probably should be canned as well, but both governments are keen to work through the issues and so we shall see what the future brings. I will not be shocked if it is canceled, I will not be shocked if it is retained... none of which will be up to me.


As for all the other well-intentioned, harshly critical posts within the thread, thanks. I have no issue with recognizing that the last few weeks have not been my finest in charge of Polaris, however, every decision had to be made one way or another. The best course of action would have been ignoring our allies and sitting on our fat butts watching... but we just don't do that when we start the mess. IS the situation pretty confused? yep, is the situation totally detrimental to Polaris? quite possibly, do we have a lot of choices? I would be keen to discuss theories with anyone, providing they are civil and reasonable.

I have not lost my mind, I have not gone rogue and I have no particular issue in discussing anything that has been done... you wont like everything I have to say, but I am not about to trash people publicly to try to redeem myself.

Please continue trashing me.

[Kortal]

Thoughts on umbrella IYHO

Also could you list any reasons for attacking TOP beyond trying to curry favor with CnG and/or getting out of war more easily? Obviously being a great friend was not the reason regardless of how your PR crew try to spin it

Edited February 9, 2010 by Kortal

[Mathias]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' date='08 February 2010 - 07:18 PM' timestamp='1265674710' post='2169375']
I can justify anything I have done, I just choose not to do so publicly. GR are aware of the reasons, this should have been done shortly after Bob left the alliance in all fairness. MK treaty probably should be canned as well, but both governments are keen to work through the issues and so we shall see what the future brings. I will not be shocked if it is canceled, I will not be shocked if it is retained... none of which will be up to me.


As for all the other well-intentioned, harshly critical posts within the thread, thanks. I have no issue with recognizing that the last few weeks have not been my finest in charge of Polaris, however, every decision had to be made one way or another. The best course of action would have been ignoring our allies and sitting on our fat butts watching... but we just don't do that when we start the mess. IS the situation pretty confused? yep, is the situation totally detrimental to Polaris? quite possibly, do we have a lot of choices? I would be keen to discuss theories with anyone, providing they are civil and reasonable.

I have not lost my mind, I have not gone rogue and I have no particular issue in discussing anything that has been done... you wont like everything I have to say, but I am not about to trash people publicly to try to redeem myself.

Please continue trashing me.
[/quote]

My intention was nor is to trash you, and as far as I can tell never will be. To be honest, I'm disappointed. I've always had the utmost confidence in you as a leader and general member of this community. You've always been calm, cool, and collected. A voice of reason, more often than not. You took over Polaris in its darkest time and made it shine, and for that you should be praised. But if you think you can come before the world and say that GR and Polaris no longer share the same brotherhood sown from day one of GR's existence, or on the battlefields of noCB simply because Bob left, you're lying to me, GR, and Planet Bob at large. I was [i]in[/i] GR, hell I was Minister of Defense for noCB, so I know a thing or two about how GR felt about NpO. This whole war has gone quagmire, but if you can give MK a chance, then there's no reason at all GR shouldn't be given the same respect. GR would have gone to hell and back for you a thousand times over, and likewise would Polar if the situations were reversed, I'm sure. So go ahead, say you're canceling on them for being in C&G; for having other commitments. But don't act like it's such a burden for you to defend allies that wouldn't think twice before coming to your defense, and wouldn't think once about attacking one of your allies and putting you in an awkward situation. And don't blame ilselu1 or any other member of GR or its government for causing this rift. The treaty may have been doomed, but that was your doing. If you're going to drag your allies through the mud, at least give them the courtesy of trying to fix the damage you caused.

And now to act as the martyr, please unleash the horde of fiercely loyal Polar members to attack what I just said.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Mathias' date='08 February 2010 - 09:20 PM' timestamp='1265685628' post='2169627']
My intention was nor is to trash you, and as far as I can tell never will be. To be honest, I'm disappointed. I've always had the utmost confidence in you as a leader and general member of this community. You've always been calm, cool, and collected. A voice of reason, more often than not. You took over Polaris in its darkest time and made it shine, and for that you should be praised. But if you think you can come before the world and say that GR and Polaris no longer share the same brotherhood sown from day one of GR's existence, or on the battlefields of noCB simply because Bob left, you're lying to me, GR, and Planet Bob at large. I was [i]in[/i] GR, hell I was Minister of Defense for noCB, so I know a thing or two about how GR felt about NpO. This whole war has gone quagmire, but if you can give MK a chance, then there's no reason at all GR shouldn't be given the same respect. GR would have gone to hell and back for you a thousand times over, and likewise would Polar if the situations were reversed, I'm sure. So go ahead, say you're canceling on them for being in C&G; for having other commitments. [b]But don't act like it's such a burden for you to defend allies that wouldn't think twice before coming to your defense,[/b] and wouldn't think once about attacking one of your allies and putting you in an awkward situation. And don't blame ilselu1 or any other member of GR or its government for causing this rift. The treaty may have been doomed, but that was your doing. If you're going to drag your allies through the mud, at least give them the courtesy of trying to fix the damage you caused.

And now to act as the martyr, please unleash the horde of fiercely loyal Polar members to attack what I just said.
[/quote]

the only issue about stating this is i am fairly certain that GR would not have been coming in to defend Polaris against VE et al that are currently attacking Polaris. thus, you cannot honestly state that they would when you pretty much know that it is false at this point in time. same with MK. Polaris is going to hell for GR despite canceling the treaty, will GR do the same and hit VE or someone else hitting Polaris? if what you state is true, i expect to see the DoW any minute now.

[Mathias]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='08 February 2010 - 11:03 PM' timestamp='1265688228' post='2169719']
the only issue about stating this is i am fairly certain that GR would not have been coming in to defend Polaris against VE et al that are currently attacking Polaris. thus, you cannot honestly state that they would when you pretty much know that it is false at this point in time. same with MK. Polaris is going to hell for GR despite canceling the treaty, will GR do the same and hit VE or someone else hitting Polaris? if what you state is true, i expect to see the DoW any minute now.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, I missed the part where GR went ahead and told people that it's perfectly fine for them to attack NpO and that they won't honor a treaty. Or the part where they purposely orchestrated a war that would put their allies in a bad position. Or the part where NpO was being attacked by several alliances in a defensive war (and don't try to portray Polar as the victim in this war no matter who declared on who, Polar started this) and thus no longer retains the ability to support the allies by whom they've been so thusly betrayed.

So yes, I do not expect GR to defend NpO while defending themselves from attacks directly caused by Polaris. But you can't blame them for not trying, now can you?

[Mergerberger II]

[quote name='Mathias' date='08 February 2010 - 11:22 PM' timestamp='1265689368' post='2169760']
I'm sorry, I missed the part where GR went ahead and told people that it's perfectly fine for them to attack NpO and that they won't honor a treaty. Or the part where they purposely orchestrated a war that would put their allies in a bad position. Or the part where NpO was being attacked by several alliances in a defensive war (and don't try to portray Polar as the victim in this war no matter who declared on who, Polar started this) and thus no longer retains the ability to support the allies by whom they've been so thusly betrayed.

So yes, I do not expect GR to defend NpO while defending themselves from attacks directly caused by Polaris. But you can't blame them for not trying, now can you?
[/quote]
I'm sorry, I missed the part where all those things happened.

So yes, I do not expect GR to defend NpO because our treaty does not chain and we did not ask them to.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Mergerberger II

[Mathias]

[quote name='Mergerberger II' date='08 February 2010 - 11:53 PM' timestamp='1265691200' post='2169817']
I'm sorry, I missed the part where all those things happened.

So yes, I do not expect GR to defend NpO because our treaty does not chain and we did not ask them to.
[/quote]

You missed the real meat of my argument. What you quoted was simply me defending my contention that GR would defend NpO in any situation, against an accusation that I was wrong because they didn't declare war on VE.

[Mergerberger II]

[quote name='Mathias' date='08 February 2010 - 11:57 PM' timestamp='1265691432' post='2169833']
You missed the real meat of my argument. What you quoted was simply me defending my contention that GR would defend NpO in any situation, against an accusation that I was wrong because they didn't declare war on VE.
[/quote]
Polaris and GR are not exactly close, at least not like they used to be. Their situation may be contrasted with MK's in that Grub and Archon talk often and have a good relationship (so I'm told). In the past, I would have expected GR to defend Polaris in any situation. However with the added pressure of our relationship not being what it used to be, their commitment to CnG, and their opposition to our original war, it is reasonable for them to not defend us, because they don't feel as strongly towards us so as to activate the optional defense clause and declare war on VE and co.

[Mathias]

[quote name='Mergerberger II' date='09 February 2010 - 12:02 AM' timestamp='1265691744' post='2169848']
Polaris and GR are not exactly close, at least not like they used to be. Their situation may be contrasted with MK's in that Grub and Archon talk often and have a good relationship (so I'm told). In the past, I would have expected GR to defend Polaris in any situation. However with the added pressure of our relationship not being what it used to be, their commitment to CnG, and their opposition to our original war, it is reasonable for them to not defend us, because they don't feel as strongly towards us so as to activate the optional defense clause and declare war on VE and co.
[/quote]

It has been months since Bob left. In that time GR has had two Archons; Drai and ilselu. In the months since Bob left, it was impossible for Grub to talk with either of those two leaders (especially considering ilselu was MoFA when Drai was Archon, so they were both the go to guys for discourse with GR), and establish where the relationship stood? No, it wasn't until GR (like MK) opposed the war that this lack of communication and commitment to C&G (like MK) became too much for your relationship to handle. Their opposition wasn't the straw that broke the camel's back, it was simply what made GR fall out of your favor. So, can you really blame them for not activating the optional defense clause while at war with TOP, which is only necessary because NpO reentered a war on the opposite side of its allies?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Mathias' date='08 February 2010 - 10:22 PM' timestamp='1265689368' post='2169760']
I'm sorry, I missed the part where GR went ahead and told people that it's perfectly fine for them to attack NpO and that they won't honor a treaty. Or the part where they purposely orchestrated a war that would put their allies in a bad position. Or the part where NpO was being attacked by several alliances in a defensive war (and don't try to portray Polar as the victim in this war no matter who declared on who, Polar started this) and thus no longer retains the ability to support the allies by whom they've been so thusly betrayed.

So yes, I do not expect GR to defend NpO while defending themselves from attacks directly caused by Polaris. But you can't blame them for not trying, now can you?
[/quote]

so in other words you are stating that GR is in [i]fact[/i] thinking twice about defending Polaris? that is all i needed. thank you.

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='Mergerberger II' date='08 February 2010 - 11:02 PM' timestamp='1265691744' post='2169848']
Polaris and GR are not exactly close, at least not like they used to be. Their situation may be contrasted with MK's in that Grub and Archon talk often and have a good relationship (so I'm told).[/quote]
Communication is a two-way street. And if the relationship with GR was going nowhere for the past year (Bob left in January of 09 if I'm correct), then I would expect the treaty to have been downgraded or cancelled long before now. This call of "communication failure" is nothing more than a cop out.

[cookavich]

[quote name='Rey the Great' date='09 February 2010 - 12:28 AM' timestamp='1265693289' post='2169972']
Communication is a two-way street. And if the relationship with GR was going nowhere for the past year (Bob left in January of 09 if I'm correct), then I would expect the treaty to have been downgraded or cancelled long before now. This call of "communication failure" is nothing more than a cop out.
[/quote]You're right it's a two way street, and we both failed at it. And, it was actually discussed multiple times before now whether or not the treaty should have been canceled. Each time we decided against it for various reasons.

[Atanatar]

And how many attempts were made to attempt to maintain a clear line of dialogue between GR and Polaris after these myriad disccusions of wether you're communicating enough? Because all the discussions in the world does little to resolve the fact that a close MDoAP partner apparently drifted away from you so easily. And if genuine attempts were made, how many private disccusions amongst your selves did you hold to determine when the magical cut off number was to consider all your private conversations to be for naught in rekindling your old love?

Edited February 9, 2010 by Atanatar

[AlmightyGrub]

[quote name='Atanatar' date='09 February 2010 - 03:55 PM' timestamp='1265694916' post='2170070']
And how many attempts were made to attempt to maintain a clear line of dialogue between GR and Polaris after these myriad disccusions of wether you're communicating enough? Because all the discussions in the world does little to resolve the fact that a close MDoAP partner apparently drifted away from you so easily. And if genuine attempts were made, how many private disccusions amongst your selves did you hold to determine when the magical cut off number was to consider all your private conversations to be for naught in rekindling your old love?
[/quote]

At the risk of sounding rude, Polaris canceled the treaty because I wanted to, for the reasons I have outlined. Your opinion, assertions or theories are of no consequence at all, mine however is.

I will be perfectly blunt, the Polar-GR treaty was one kept for old times sake rather than out of a genuine desire from either alliance to do anything at all to enhance the relationship. I don't like them, they don't like me = it is not going anywhere. We should have canned it a long time ago, we didn't, problem solved now..move on? The old GR was a vastly different alliance.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' date='09 February 2010 - 08:35 AM' timestamp='1265704524' post='2170309']
At the risk of sounding rude, Polaris canceled the treaty because I wanted to, for the reasons I have outlined. Your opinion, assertions or theories are of no consequence at all, mine however is.

I will be perfectly blunt, the Polar-GR treaty was one kept for old times sake rather than out of a genuine desire from either alliance to do anything at all to enhance the relationship. I don't like them, they don't like me = it is not going anywhere. We should have canned it a long time ago, we didn't, problem solved now..move on? The old GR was a vastly different alliance.
[/quote]
And the old polar was...well...the same.

[Mathias]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' date='09 February 2010 - 03:35 AM' timestamp='1265704524' post='2170309']
At the risk of sounding rude, Polaris canceled the treaty because I wanted to, for the reasons I have outlined. Your opinion, assertions or theories are of no consequence at all, mine however is.

I will be perfectly blunt, the Polar-GR treaty was one kept for old times sake rather than out of a genuine desire from either alliance to do anything at all to enhance the relationship. I don't like them, they don't like me = it is not going anywhere. We should have canned it a long time ago, we didn't, problem solved now..move on? The old GR was a vastly different alliance.
[/quote]

The old GR had Celtic and Bob, if that's what you mean. Other than that I can find no real difference. And Polar has stayed the same, though I don't mean this in the snarky way Hyperion said it. I know this won't bring back the GR treaty, and that this was your decision and all that, but it's kind of insulting to see you tug at the world's heart strings with a touching tale about how GR is forcing you to defend them against your will. In respect to the history GR and Polar share, I would think you'd at least have the decency to not treat them like they're your baggage from the past.

And to Doch: You know you're wrong, just stop it. GR being involved in a defensive war with a larger alliance and thus being unable to fulfill their obligations in a non-chaining defense agreement with Polar, doesn't mean that I'm wrong in saying that if Polar were attacked under normal circumstances, GR would be there. Believe it or not, most treaties aren't signed with the assumption that you'll be fighting on opposite sides of a war.

[Kortal]

nvm

Edited February 9, 2010 by Kortal

[Mussolandia]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' date='09 February 2010 - 12:18 AM' timestamp='1265674710' post='2169375']
*cough* Bring it?.... please *cough*
[/quote]

The Emperor seems to have forgotten how he came to the throne.

If not losing your mind is making mistake after mistake, lying through your teeth and just about making every possible move so this war would be lost, then I don't know what losing your mind is.

I can bear with the incompetence. The lies, however, are unacceptable.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Mussolandia

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Mussolandia' date='09 February 2010 - 10:36 AM' timestamp='1265729785' post='2170599']
The Emperor seems to have forgotten how he came to the throne.

If not losing your mind is making mistake after mistake, lying through your teeth and just about making every possible move so this war would be lost, then I don't know what losing your mind is.

I can bear with the incompetence. The lies, however, are unacceptable.
[/quote]

Musso saying an emperor shouldn't lie. The irony is rich right there.

[HellAngel]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='09 February 2010 - 04:41 PM' timestamp='1265730087' post='2170609']
Musso saying an emperor shouldn't lie. The irony is rich right there.
[/quote]

That someones probably a hypocrit doesnt mean they are wrong.

[Mussolandia]

[b][quote]1. Person A has position X.[/b]

[b]2. Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially-similar position Y.[/b]
Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:

[b]3. Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.[/b]
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious, because attacking a [i]distorted[/i] version of a position fails to constitute an attack on the [i]actual[/i] position.[/quote]

WarriorConcept in a nutshell.

And, yes, I'm right.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='HellAngel' date='09 February 2010 - 10:44 AM' timestamp='1265730290' post='2170614']
That someones probably a hypocrit doesnt mean they are wrong.
[/quote]

Oh the fact that they are a hypocrite is just what's so funny. I know grub lied, we all know that. Just it coming from him as if he is a morally superior person or such is hilarious.

[Gn0xious Jr]

Perhaps Polaris and GR can work on our relationship in the future.
Until then, I wish Polaris's membership the best of luck.