This has gone on long enough

[Caffine]

I'm not trying to spin anything... You were trying to get into 1V for months yet we only found out a week after we were expelled. I asked why you didn't tell us about your intention to join 1V months ahead of time while we were in the bloc and a close ally of yours.

That information is completely incorrect. I even had conversations with various Polar leadership at the time about a possible invitation to One Vision.

[Vilien]

Try not to be so closed minded when you read, as that's not what I said. What I stated was that Echelon had played a role in creating a monster, and wanted out.

You gave up one monster for another. How sympathetic.

[Nintenderek]

Polaris is aware of the information. I can not convey the information here to the public.

Then why the hell did you even make this topic in the first place?

[hizzy]

Try not to be so closed minded when you read, as that's not what I said. What I stated was that Echelon had played a role in creating a monster, and wanted out.

He understood exactly what you said, but his point is still valid; you ditched something that you had a direct hand in creating. I mean it's almost as retarded as when MCXA's former gov all ditched MCXA because they "didnt like where the alliance was headed". Not quite, but it's close.

[wickedj]

Then why the hell did you even make this topic in the first place?

Thats a Ric Romero answer my friend, he wanted the attention

[Caffine]

Thats a Ric Romero answer my friend, he wanted the attention

That could be the case, but it is incorrect. This issue was brought up in the other topic, and I felt that a clarification was needed.

[wickedj]

That could be the case, but it is incorrect. This issue was brought up in the other topic, and I felt that a clarification was needed.

You appear to have brought forth more questions than you have answers, questions you claim you cannot answer

[Owned-You]

That could be the case, but it is incorrect. This issue was brought up in the other topic, and I felt that a clarification was needed.

You realize your clarification only paints yourself and your alliance in a negative light correct? If so, bravo; you've achieved your goal with the utmost ease.

[Nintenderek]

That could be the case, but it is incorrect. This issue was brought up in the other topic, and I felt that a clarification was needed.

Except you haven't clarified anything.

[Penguin]

That information is completely incorrect. I even had conversations with various Polar leadership at the time about a possible invitation to One Vision.

I suppose that's possible, though I certainly have never heard about that. I'll have to ask around. It's beside the point really.

In the opening post you make it sound like you would have sided with Polaris in the noCB war (instead of attacking MK) if only we had spent more time trying to convince you that we hadn't betrayed and lied to you. Are you saying you would have given up all of your One Vision treaties to defend Polar that day if only we had communicated more? Can you explain what exactly you would have done if we had perfect communication and shared knowledge leading up to the war?

Edited December 16, 2009 by Penguin

[rsoxbronco1]

/me plays his "summon Electric Sponge" card.

[Caffine]

I suppose that's possible, though I certainly have never heard about that. I'll have to ask around. It's beside the point really.

In the opening post you make it sound like you would have sided with Polaris in the noCB war (instead of attacking MK) if only we had spent more time trying to convince you that we hadn't betrayed and lied to you. Are you saying you would have given up all of your One Vision treaties to defend Polar that day if only we had communicated more? Can you explain what exactly you would have done if we had perfect communication and shared knowledge leading up to the war?

I am of the belief that Echelon would not have canceled the MADP. Echelon would have sat out the war due to conflicting interests, and then helped you to rebuild afterward. I'll admit right here that I was one of the people that recommend going to war against MK, and I was wrong in doing so.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Caffine1

[memoryproblems]

Caffine, when you write things like these, I want to kill myself.

Lets sum up where the current situation is... NpO (and others) dislike Echelon. Fine, things like this aren't going to change it. I (and the rest of Echelon I believe) wants nothing but the best for Polaris, we've got nothing for or against them, One thing is certain, we can't change what transpired so long ago, so lets just shut the $%!^ up about it.

Edited December 16, 2009 by memoryproblems

[hizzy]

I am of the belief that Echelon would not have canceled the MADP. Echelon would have sat out the war due to conflicting interests, and then helped you to rebuild afterward. I'll admit right here that I was one of the people that recommend going to war against MK, and I was wrong in doing so.

Caffine, when did you find out that the information that you claimed caused you to cancel your MADP treaty with Polaris, was in fact false? I'm not asking you to give the details of the information itself, just the timeline... like, who first gave you information which made you doubt Polaris' loyalty, and then who/when/how did you realize the information was incorrect?

[Caffine]

Caffine, when did you find out that the information that you claimed caused you to cancel your MADP treaty with Polaris, was in fact false? I'm not asking you to give the details of the information itself, just the timeline... like, who first gave you information which made you doubt Polaris' loyalty, and then who/when/how did you realize the information was incorrect?

Months later, and actually I've spoken with Grub about this in the last couple of months.

[hizzy]

Months later, and actually I've spoken with Grub about this in the last couple of months.

And, after you found out that someone clearly lied to you and manipulated your alliance... what actions did you take? Besides talking to Grub, I mean. cause if I recall correctly Echelon stayed on the same path without so much as budging until that Coalition of Cowards thing came up.

[Joe Stupid]

Months later, and actually I've spoken with Grub about this in the last couple of months.

You answered like 1/10th of Hizzy's question.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Joe Stupid

[Caffine]

And, after you found out that someone clearly lied to you and manipulated your alliance... what actions did you take? Besides talking to Grub, I mean. cause if I recall correctly Echelon stayed on the same path without so much as budging until that Coalition of Cowards thing came up.

After we found it it was too late to undo the damage that was done to the relationship. However I was working from that point forward to try and rebuild that friendship, and Grub himself will attest to that.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Caffine1

[Neo Anglia]

Then why the hell did you even make this topic in the first place?

I was rather wondering that one myself

[Shimmer]

Is this the part of history where the winner attempts to rewrite it to story to make themselves look like the innocent victim?

Also, I fail to see why this is relevant. You could of saved us the paragraph by saying four lines.

Echelon didn't betray Polaris.

We were mislead!!!!!!

We really weren't dangled admission into 1V for dropping BLEU even though its common knowledge and thought that this is exactly what happened.

I have proof, but its a secret so take my word for it.

Also, this isn't thread-worthy. If I waste my time reading it, then I mine as well waste my time responding to it.

[Caffine]

I was rather wondering that one myself

In hindsight, it was a mistake. People are set in their ways and are not willing to view another perspective.

[Caffine]

Is this the part of history where the winner attempts to rewrite it to story to make themselves look like the innocent victim?

Also, I fail to see why this is relevant. You could of saved us the paragraph by saying four lines.

Echelon didn't betray Polaris.

We were mislead!!!!!!

We really weren't dangled admission into 1V for dropping BLEU even though its common knowledge and thought that this is exactly what happened.

I have proof, but its a secret so take my word for it.

Also, this isn't thread-worthy. If I waste my time reading it, then I mine as well waste my time responding to it.

For the last two parts, reread what I wrote. You misread it. For the second part, that information is between Polar and Echelon and a few select allies of both sides who know of the situation.

[JDavis]

I wasn't apart of Planet Bob at the time this incident occurred, so I cannot honestly say that I believe the OP or not. However, giving Caffine1 the benefit of the doubt as far as his intentions go, it appears to me that he was not privy to all that was said between the two involved alliances. He may only be repeating what he was told, or read false logs.

Just a thought

[Penguin]

I am of the belief that Echelon would not have canceled the MADP. Echelon would have sat out the war due to conflicting interests, and then helped you to rebuild afterward. I'll admit right here that I was one of the people that recommend going to war against MK, and I was wrong in doing so.

A nice sentiment in hindsight, although it would have made no difference to us. All our treaties were canceled after the war and foreign aid from other alliances was strictly forbidden. It also seems impossible given that you went to war before the treaty was canceled and you cited Polars "disrespectfully" expressing anger over that decision as the reason for the cancellation.

Caffine, when you write things like these, I want to kill myself.

Lets sum up where the current situation is... NpO (and alot of other people) hate Echelon. Fine, things like this aren't going to change it. I (and the rest of Echelon I believe) wants nothing but the best for Polaris, we've got nothing for or against them, One thing is certain, we can't change what transpired so long ago, so lets just shut the $%!^ up about it.

No, I don't hate you (maybe some others do?). You've already faced the consequences of your realignment. I think you are still wrestling with the fact that you made a series of poor choices that deeply hurt people that had considered you brothers and you later came to regret those choices. Instead of facing the past you are trying to sweep it under the rug. At least Caffine is confronting it, although he seems to be trying to rationalize Echelon's mistakes as entirely the result of our poor communication. I tend to think that if you cancel a treaty, especially on the eve of war (or in this case a few days after the war started), it is your alliance's responsibility to make sure you have all the information first.

Months later, and actually I've spoken with Grub about this in the last couple of months.

More importantly (and hizzy seems to be asking this as well), who gave you the false information and what did you do when you found out? Edited December 17, 2009 by Penguin

[The Eye]

IC