Crimius Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) No, they do not. You're assuming that tech raiding is your RIGHT and not a privilege that your alliance grants you. They have just as much a right to exist as you do, without the need to get a protectorate of any kind. You should not have to join the treaty web just so some !@#$%^& in some !@#$hole of an alliance won't declare war on you. since when did collecting spoils from war become a privilege? Alliances may ban it in their documents, in which case you pay the price for it, but for alliances that permit it there shouldn't be an argument. believe it or not, tech raiding has helped make planet Bob go 'round, especially when this kind of situation/discussion appears. how else would some alliances/nations be painted as evil? plain old extortion is clearly black, whereas tech raiding has moved from white-ish(acceptable, but not the greatest good) to grey (opinions differ about it's morality) and now it's almost black. I'll tell you just plain and regular growth hasn't caused many of the most interesting parts of Bobs history. you need evil in order for good to actually be good instead of normal. edit: i r gud spller Edited November 17, 2009 by Crimius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Technology raiding affiliated nations, no matter the size of the alliance, is inherently wrong. Well, raiding nations who have not wronged you in any way is what is inherently wrong really, not how big their alliance is, the difference being that raiding affiliated nations can cause complications for your alliance (wars with their allies/protectors), which is why alliances usually have rules against it, not to be moral but to protect themselves. Raiding has become so rampant that it has now taken on a veneer of moral acceptability, but it's splitting hairs really in defining one raid as being acceptable while another is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astronaut jones Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) since when did collecting spoils from war become a privilege? Alliances may ban it in their documents, in which case you pay the price for it, but for alliances that permit it there shouldn't be an argument. believe it or not, tech raiding has helped make planet Bob go 'round, especially when this kind of situation/discussion appears. how else would some alliances/nations be painted as evil? plain old extortion is clearly black, whereas tech raiding has moved from white-ish(acceptable, but not the greatest good) to grey (opinions differ about it's morality) and now it's almost black. I'll tell you just plain and regular growth hasn't caused many of the most interesting parts of Bobs history.you need evil in order for good to actually be good instead of normal. edit: i r gud spller I raided more than just about anyone back in the day. I'm the reason an alliance like Athens even thought, "hey, 40 man alliance with no treaty? I'm there!" because I'm the guy who set that precedent, and I'm the guy who's argued their arguments long before they even dreamed them up. The thing is? I was wrong. I'm not saying raiding is bad, but no treaty should not be an open invitation to raid. I don't see athens trying to pull the same thing on TDO or GPA or even the GOP, because that wouldn't be as easy a fight to them, because even though they chose an alliance that was larger than most, it was still an opportunistic attack. An alliance has every right to exist without wishing to join the treaty web, and if they choose to do so, they should not be subject to organized raids (3 on 1 quad attacks? pretty damn organized) simply because they wish to remain outside of the whole treaty nonsense. I'm fairly certain FAN has no treaties right now either, how come they were not chosen? Raiders are inherently opportunistic, and they're inherently dicks about their right to do what they do. They talk about fairness, how larger alliances have more chance to fight back, etc. etc., and I know this because I've argued the same points, but it's not fair. The methods used, the attitudes of those doing the raiding, means it will never be fair. In other words, the attitudes of those doing the raiding needs to change. The way they go about raiding needs to change. Edited November 17, 2009 by astronaut jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramon666 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Just a short heads up from KofN for everyone's info: I've had a good and rather pleasant talk with Londo and reps are going to be paid. Right now we are figuring out the amount, when we agree on an amount, Athens and (I'm assuming also) FoB will start to send the aid packages. I'm just glad everything is working out fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Achilleus Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 No, they do not. You're assuming that tech raiding is your RIGHT and not a privilege that your alliance grants you. They have just as much a right to exist as you do, without the need to get a protectorate of any kind. You should not have to join the treaty web just so some !@#$%^& in some !@#$hole of an alliance won't declare war on you. And the streets should be paved with gold, pigs should fly, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WcaesarD Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) -snip-I'm fairly certain FAN has no treaties right now either, how come they were not chosen? -snip- Because I would kick Londo's $@! out of #asc. True story. Also, this thread is hilarious. Edited November 17, 2009 by WCaesarD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tromp Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Because I would kick Londo's $@! out of #asc. True story. Also, this thread is hilarious. You would not be alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacapo Saladin Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Athens will never be #1, Miami Dolphins will never be bested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Just a short heads up from KofN for everyone's info: I've had a good and rather pleasant talk with Londo and reps are going to be paid. Right now we are figuring out the amount, when we agree on an amount, Athens and (I'm assuming also) FoB will start to send the aid packages.I'm just glad everything is working out fine. Good to hear this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Are you being intentionally obtuse?You made mention of a "prevailing definition" of what consitutes an alliance. A prevailing definition means that there is some universally or largely agreed upon number that must be met before an alliance affiliation is recognised as a 'valid' alliance. You yourself, in the quoted post, have alluded to the fact that alliances have varying viewpoints on the value of that number. Thus, no "prevailing definition" exists, outside of that provided by the game itself; any alliance affiliation entered into the appropriate menu. Also, protip: When using quotations, you might want to actually quote something I said. What you did there was create a strawman, then proceed to attack said strawman with the ferocity of a GGA update blitz. The treaty web is not ignored because there is a "prevailing definition" of what constitutes a treaty, what is meant by an agreement between two parties, and the legal requirements of a signed document. this is quite the amusing turn of events. MK and Athens and friends, seem to be far more use to being the victims and receiving OWF support against the likes of NPO/Heg instead of being in the shoes of NPO/Heg (am not comparing the wrongdoings just the position in terms of OWF support). seems they do not know how to handle themselves that well. i also find it amusing that morals seem to have fallen to the wayside in CnG and was only convenient when it was marshaled against NPO/Heg to lead to their overthrow. Afterwords, morals are no longer of any relevance and thus, those who attempt to use a moral approach are regarded as illogical by CnG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Well, I'd like to see a bit more than one token 3M package from jgoods here: http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp...s+Knights+of+Ni! At least try and send as much as we sent to Crimson Guard. But yeah, it's a start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flak attack Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Well, I'd like to see a bit more than one token 3M package from jgoods here: http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp...s+Knights+of+Ni!At least try and send as much as we sent to Crimson Guard. But yeah, it's a start. I believe damages are being tallied right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragashingo Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 this is quite the amusing turn of events. MK and Athens and friends, seem to be far more use to being the victims and receiving OWF support against the likes of NPO/Heg instead of being in the shoes of NPO/Heg (am not comparing the wrongdoings just the position in terms of OWF support). seems they do not know how to handle themselves that well. i also find it amusing that morals seem to have fallen to the wayside in CnG and was only convenient when it was marshaled against NPO/Heg to lead to their overthrow. Afterwords, morals are no longer of any relevance and thus, those who attempt to use a moral approach are regarded as illogical by CnG. Revanche is attempting to hold all of CN to a much higher moral standard than they'd like. If I've read his comments right he wants an end to all tech raiding, or at least all raiding on alliances of any shape or size. How the heck do you go from there to claiming that morals are falling by the wayside? Honestly man, you need to stop. You simply aren't making sense anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Not exactly sure why uninvolved parties feel like they have any stake in asking for reps to Ni! I dare say it makes more sense for Athens and Ni! to work the reps total out themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragashingo Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Not exactly sure why uninvolved parties feel like they have any stake in asking for reps to Ni! I dare say it makes more sense for Athens and Ni! to work the reps total out themselves. I can understand it. A whole lot of people stuck their necks out for Ni by standing up for them. I don't think those people deserve to set the amount of reps that Athens pays, but I don't find it entirely unfair that they keep an eye on the process. Call it part of the reward they get for defending the little guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 I can understand it. A whole lot of people stuck their necks out for Ni by standing up for them. I don't think those people deserve to set the amount of reps that Athens pays, but I don't find it entirely unfair that they keep an eye on the process. Call it part of the reward they get for defending the little guy. I could understand this viewpoint had Ni! come here asking for people for support. I would also understand if most of these "defenders" were here to actually help Ni! rather than yell to hear their own voice or to pursue their own political agenda. Now, I'm not going to name names (and I actually think you're a part of the people who were genuinely concerned for Ni!), but I find it interesting the latter types are finding something else to be so vocal about when they start running out of things to blame Athens for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denial Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 (edited) this is quite the amusing turn of events. MK and Athens and friends, seem to be far more use to being the victims and receiving OWF support against the likes of NPO/Heg instead of being in the shoes of NPO/Heg (am not comparing the wrongdoings just the position in terms of OWF support). seems they do not know how to handle themselves that well. Right, because the Cyberverse came into existence only two months prior to the Karma War. Either that, or you certainly have a very limited memory. Each Complaints & Grievances alliance - but particularly Mushroom Kingdom, Vanguard, and Greenland Republic - has spent far more time labelled as the pariahs of the Cyberverse and the OWF than time spent being cheered on as popular saviours. I am not attempting to provoke sympathy - I have never been one for TPF-esque "look at the hardships we have been through!" public statements - but many seem to readily forget the fact that those within the C&G bloc spent well over a year under conditions where one sharp critique of the ruling powers could result in us being seriously threatened with warfare. Our approach to the game, our opinions, were for the longest time considered in the minority. We are familiar with receiving the ire of the OWF public, and more than capable of handling it with stalwart resilience. i also find it amusing that morals seem to have fallen to the wayside in CnG and was only convenient when it was marshaled against NPO/Heg to lead to their overthrow. Afterwords, morals are no longer of any relevance and thus, those who attempt to use a moral approach are regarded as illogical by CnG. Exactly which moral stances have disappeared from within Complaints & Grievances? Athens and the Buccaneers have always been raiding alliances. Yes, they recently took the concept of a technology raid too far, but have profusely apologised, reached a diplomatic settlement with the victims, and are currently determining reparations amounts. Further, to use myself as an example, the last couple of pages of this discussion has been plastered with my own views of technology raiding; I find it an abhorrent practice, no matter the size of the alliance the victims claim allegiance to. This is not a recent development, but an opinion I have firmly held since the process first surfaced in the Cyberverse; as Leader of LUE - the alliance that invented technology raiding - I went to great lengths to restrict its practice and placed strict rules upon those rulers that wished to participate. If the political realities in that alliance allowed it, the practice would have been outright prohibited. Any forum-active members of GOONS or \m/ would likely recall my lengthy, scathing criticisms of their behaviour in the Great War era, also. What I have shown in this thread is that the majority of those adopting a so-called "moral approach" are indeed presenting illogical arguments. This is likely due to the political motivations they possess. I dislike repeating myself; my previous posts outline my issues with many of the contemporary 'moralists' criticising Athens' behaviour. Edited November 18, 2009 by Revanche Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragashingo Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 I could understand this viewpoint had Ni! come here asking for people for support. I would also understand if most of these "defenders" were here to actually help Ni! rather than yell to hear their own voice or to pursue their own political agenda. Now, I'm not going to name names (and I actually think you're a part of the people who were genuinely concerned for Ni!), but I find it interesting the latter types are finding something else to be so vocal about when they start running out of things to blame Athens for. I was very happy to see people offer support even when it wasn't asked for, but you are right. They've taken it way too far now. Fortunately it shouldn't last much longer. Give it another day or two and even they will realize that the issue has long been over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsoxbronco1 Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Well, I'd like to see a bit more than one token 3M package from jgoods here: http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp...s+Knights+of+Ni!At least try and send as much as we sent to Crimson Guard. But yeah, it's a start. I can say without fear of exaggeration that when reps are figured out and completed there won't be anyone saying we didn't pay enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 I can say without fear of exaggeration that when reps are figured out and completed there won't be anyone saying we didn't pay enough. rsox is someone I still trust. I just don't want this to be like the California incident is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Right, because the Cyberverse came into existence only two months prior to the Karma War. Either that, or you certainly have a very limited memory. Each Complaints & Grievances alliance - but particularly Mushroom Kingdom, Vanguard, and Greenland Republic - has spent far more time labelled as the pariahs of the Cyberverse and the OWF than time spent being cheered on as popular saviours. I am not attempting to provoke sympathy - I have never been one for TPF-esque "look at the hardships we have been through!" public statements - but many seem to readily forget the fact that those within the C&G bloc spent well over a year under conditions where one sharp critique of the ruling powers could result in us being seriously threatened with warfare. Our approach to the game, our opinions, were for the longest time considered in the minority. We are familiar with receiving the ire of the OWF public, and more than capable of handling it with stalwart resilience. no i remember that time quite well. i was on the opposite of MK due to their association with GOONS and \m/. GR was allied to Polaris from darn near the beginning of their existence so unsure bout that one and honestly i know little about Vanguard's origins so i cannot comment there. also, i was not trying to state you were doing anything, just that your post is very much different from the majority of your CnG brethren who stated that moral crusading is ridiculous and things like that. Exactly which moral stances have disappeared from within Complaints & Grievances? Athens and the Buccaneers have always been raiding alliances. Yes, they recently took the concept of a technology raid too far, but have profusely apologised, reached a diplomatic settlement with the victims, and are currently determining reparations amounts. Further, to use myself as an example, the last couple of pages of this discussion has been plastered with my own views of technology raiding; I find it an abhorrent practice, no matter the size of the alliance the victims claim allegiance to. This is not a recent development, but an opinion I have firmly held since the process first surfaced in the Cyberverse; as Leader of LUE - the alliance that invented technology raiding - I went to great lengths to restrict its practice and placed strict rules upon those rulers that wished to participate. If the political realities in that alliance allowed it, the practice would have been outright prohibited. Any forum-active members of GOONS or \m/ would likely recall my lengthy, scathing criticisms of their behaviour in the Great War era, also. actually, neither Londo nor Choader actually apologized for the tech raid. nor has either apologized to KofN unless that was done privately. thus, nothing publicly thus far has truly been apologized for beyond the "sorry to our allies for this" and "sorry to the OWF that you do not agree with our view of tech-raiding". i am glad that reps will be paid. i have tech raided a few times since i came to IAA and have kept it on strict regulations as well (including laughing off being nuked 3-4 times by my victim but did not even ask for money to help repair the damage). i don't tech raid much mainly due to lack of targets in my range (so few unaligned). What I have shown in this thread is that the majority of those adopting a so-called "moral approach" are indeed presenting illogical arguments. This is likely due to the political motivations they possess. I dislike repeating myself; my previous posts outline my issues with many of the contemporary 'moralists' criticising Athens' behaviour. that would depend. to you it is illogical simply because you want it to be. we could go back and forth about how either side is illogical based on such and such with neither side actually gaining much ground other than with those who previously supported one side or the other. just for example, the "prevailing definition" is actually quite simple with the majority of the tech raiding alliances recognizing alliances of being at least 6+ members. there are a handful (like 4-5 tops) that recognize alliances of being at least 10-15. Then there are the majority of non-tech raiding who on diplomatic purposes may only recognize alliances that are 6+ members. so if you go with the majority of alliances, then the number where an alliance is recognized as being an alliance is 6+ members regardless of how you split hairs about the minority alliances. so i could easily say your argument is illogical as well. with that, i am done with this issue altogether. it has been beaten to death though i apologize to Revanche as i did not mean to target you, personally, in my previous post in any way whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragashingo Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 i have tech raided a few times since i came to IAA and have kept it on strict regulations as well (including laughing off being nuked 3-4 times by my victim but did not even ask for money to help repair the damage). i don't tech raid much mainly due to lack of targets in my range (so few unaligned). You tech raiders are always so silly. You launch an unprovoked attack on someone then you expect people to give you credit for not even asking for your victim to pay for the damages he inflicted while defending himself. Give me a break! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 You tech raiders are always so silly. You launch an unprovoked attack on someone then you expect people to give you credit for not even asking for your victim to pay for the damages he inflicted while defending himself. Give me a break! i was talking about money from IAA, not money from the victim. sorry i did not clarify that before. i usually do not even retaliate if they send one set of attacks (this includes full set of GAs, CMs, Navy, and air strikes). i will even send peace after those attacks if they did not already. only if they continue to attack after that do i retaliate. sorry for the confusion Raga but no, you honestly have nothing on me from that other than not clarifying who i did not ask for money. during the time of the nukings, i talked with the other guy and even invited him to join IAA but he was quitting CN and wanted to go out in a bang and invited me to nuke him back. it was one of the funnest raids i ever had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragashingo Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 i was talking about money from IAA, not money from the victim. sorry i did not clarify that before. i usually do not even retaliate if they send one set of attacks (this includes full set of GAs, CMs, Navy, and air strikes). i will even send peace after those attacks if they did not already. only if they continue to attack after that do i retaliate. Yes, God forbid someone try and defend themselves. Obviously their treachery provides you with the full moral authority to continue attacking their nation. Again, give me a break! sorry for the confusion Raga but no, you honestly have nothing on me from that other than not clarifying who i did not ask for money. during the time of the nukings, i talked with the other guy and even invited him to join IAA but he was quitting CN and wanted to go out in a bang and invited me to nuke him back. it was one of the funnest raids i ever had. Meh, asking for money from anyone for damages incurred in launching an unprovoked war is stupid and only shows how far our community has slipped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfHoward Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 (edited) KoFN PM'd for peace? Glad to see this all worked out. Do we still get to see a MK-Polaris war? Edited November 18, 2009 by SonOfHoward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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