Athens - KoFN resolution

[Zangmonkey]

Congratulations you are officially the 5000th person to say this. Have a cookie. If you'd like you can sell said cookie to help contribute to the "Save those poor defenseless Knights of Ni" foundation.

Jawesome, I'm the 5000th person to call all of us cowards?

Well, repetition makes it true right? This is the internet after all.

[janax]

I find it refreshing that people stick to their convictions, actually.

Some people thought it was wrong and "brought it" as requested. Everything worked out in the end, without additional bloodshed. It's hard to argue with the results, at least for us fun-hating moralists, or something.

[nutkase]

Congratulations you are officially the 5000th person to say this. Have a cookie. If you'd like you can sell said cookie to help contribute to the "Save those poor defenseless Knights of Ni" foundation.

I would like to have a cookie.

God knows what was going through Londo's mind we he authorized such a thing, such narrow minded thinking it's not funny.

I for one was never a fan of NpO, but this current practice that they are displaying I am fond of. Lately Grub and NpO are gaining some big brownie points from me.

Keep doing what your doing Grub

[Bob Janova]

MPK might be the 5000th person to ask, but I haven't seen an answer, so I'll make it 5001. Are Athens and FoB paying full reparations as part of 'making it right'?

[Seerow]

MPK might be the 5000th person to ask, but I haven't seen an answer, so I'll make it 5001. Are Athens and FoB paying full reparations as part of 'making it right'?

Pretty sure if there was an answer it would have been given by now. As indicated in the OP the respective leaders have a fairly wide time difference and probably still haven't worked the details out. But instead of asking over and over, it's probably going to be easier to wait, because we'll probably see yet another new topic when terms are finished.

[D34th]

I believe he was. Or are you unaware that NpO has a treaty with MK, which Grub ignored to publicly threaten to roll through us to go after Athens in response to an action that has no effect on the NpO whatsoever?

That's the one. Looks like a fairly clear example of a threat to me.

I do not think that Grub threatened MK in this Post, I think what he means was that if he wanted to attack Athens this thread won't stop him, he can correct me if I'm wrong.

And Seerow, just because Athen's actions do not affect us mean that we can't have a response to it?

[OOC]If you see someone being stolen in a street you will do nothing just because that not affect you?[/OOC]

Seens a bit selfish to me.

[Seerow]

I do not think that Grub threatened MK in this Post, I think what he means was that if he wanted to attack Athens this thread won't stop him, he can correct me if I'm wrong.

Really? I mean, seriously? You're the only person who has claimed to read it that way.

And Seerow, just because Athen's actions do not affect us mean that we can't have a response to it?

[OOC]If you see someone being stolen in a street you will do nothing just because that not affect you?[/OOC]

Seens a bit selfish to me.

[ooc]For one, this is a game, and a lot of people would bear well to keep that in mind. RL comparisons like that don't generally hold water. Though really in 99% of the cases that is exactly what happens when they see someone being robbed. How many people want to risk themselves getting stabbed or shot for someone else's money? [/ooc]

You can have a response to it, but when it comes to the point of publicly telling an ally you will attack them if need be to defend an alliance they didn't know existed a week before, it raises serious questions about the relationship between the alliances in question. There's a line between standing up for the little guy and outright screwing your friends that Polar seems to be walking very finely.

[D34th]

Really? I mean, seriously? You're the only person who has claimed to read it that way.

Really, seriously.

[ooc]For one, this is a game, and a lot of people would bear well to keep that in mind. RL comparisons like that don't generally hold water. Though really in 99% of the cases that is exactly what happens when they see someone being robbed. How many people want to risk themselves getting stabbed or shot for someone else's money? [/ooc]

You can have a response to it, but when it comes to the point of publicly telling an ally you will attack them if need be to defend an alliance they didn't know existed a week before, it raises serious questions about the relationship between the alliances in question. There's a line between standing up for the little guy and outright screwing your friends that Polar seems to be walking very finely.

[ooc]We live in selfish times but this doesn't make it less worse.[/ooc]

As I said I fail to see where Polaris said that we would attack MK in defense of KoN, may be if you change it to "ally of allies" and "friends of friends" it would be correct.

Edited November 16, 2009 by D34th

[Max Beck]

Interesting. You would be content if Athens were to publicly declare a war on Knights of Ni, with a trumped-up casus belli, yet you are frothing at the mouth with righteous indignation over this situation? Not that I wish it to happen, but if The Gremlins were to be attacked without adequate justification on the part of the aggressors, I sure hope we do not see you complaining.

Good point.

We could easily have made up something about spying going on and used that as a CB and curbstomp Ni! but that's not what happened and that's not how we do things.

Instead out of boredom some guys decide to raid and do so with just ground attacks knowing that there's going to be more material loss than gain. They thought it was OK to raid KoN because they had no treaties (as it seemed at the time, I am fully aware of the treaty that was "found" later), but international outrage became KoNs ally so suddenly the raid wasn't acceptable any more and suddenly we were at fault. Some people just don't understand raiding and think it's about stealing. It's really more about all that other stuff such as having fun because simply building infrastructure isn't fun at all and also gaining casualties and so on. Well anyways we're all very very very very very very sorry that we upset the moral-glands of so many people but more importantly we're sorry we raided the Knights of Ni!. My theory is that most people don't really care about KoN as much as they care about dumping their boredom on us by saying we're bad for raiding. So many who say we're bad for doing what we did are susceptible of committing the same crime we committed: easing ones boredom.

Also, if anybody claims this was actual war and not a raid, they are wrong. First of all, we would have posted a DoW. Second, what could our motive be? There was no motive, KoN isn't that strategically significant. Third, if this was an actual war we would have talked to our allies about this and they would have probably then stopped us anyways. Fourth, our sense of morality forbids us to fight a war without a CB.

The reps and such are nobodys concern until KoN and Athens decide to release details about it.

[dejarue]

Really, seriously.

[ooc]We live in selfish times but this doesn't make it less worse.[/ooc]

As I said I fail to see where Polaris said that we would attack MK in defense of KoN, may be if you change it to "ally of allies" and "friends of friends" it would be correct.

This is some logic backflipping that onlookers should make a concerted effort to learn from and not do.

MK says "anyone who wants at Athens goes through us", Grub says "aight we'll go through you", and MK is left mouth agape that their ally is openly, publicly, and clearly threatening them. I'm going to be dumbfounded if that treaty survives the week.

[D34th]

This is some logic backflipping that onlookers should make a concerted effort to learn from and not do.

MK says "anyone who wants at Athens goes through us", Grub says "aight we'll go through you", and MK is left mouth agape that their ally is openly, publicly, and clearly threatening them. I'm going to be dumbfounded if that treaty survives the week.

In a RL fight it would be true but in cyberverse there are no need to attack first MK to then can attack Athens.

[4SnwL]

My theory is that most people don't really care about KoN as much as they care about dumping their boredom on us by saying we're bad for raiding. So many who say we're bad for doing what we did are susceptible of committing the same crime we committed: easing ones boredom.

This man speaks the truth !

The only error Athens did is making the first move...

[D34th]

This man speaks the truth !

The only error Athens did is making the first move...

So you approve raiding 39 men alliances?

[4SnwL]

So you approve raiding 39 men alliances?

I don't even approve raiding, but I also don't approve this public "Court" against Athens when things can be resolved via private channels...

[D34th]

I don't even approve raiding, but I also don't approve this public "Court" against Athens when things can be resolved via private channels...

So you don't approve raid but thinks that the only error of Athens was made the first move?

[Archon]

MPK might be the 5000th person to ask, but I haven't seen an answer, so I'll make it 5001. Are Athens and FoB paying full reparations as part of 'making it right'?

Personally, I'm awaiting the massive aid rush on behalf of all these concerned parties that are so worried about the damage dealt to Ni. I mean, given their massive outpouring of concern over the past few days, the aid should practically be spilling all over the place, right?

[Lord Levistus]

I don't even approve raiding, but I also don't approve this public "Court" against Athens when things can be resolved via private channels...

It's a little late to complain about the Court of Public Opinion in Cybernations.

Or is it that people just don't like that court weighing judgment on their allies or themselves.

[Zangmonkey]

Personally, I'm awaiting the massive aid rush on behalf of all these concerned parties that are so worried about the damage dealt to Ni. I mean, given their massive outpouring of concern over the past few days, the aid should practically be spilling all over the place, right?

http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp...&Extended=1

[Denial]

Personally, I'm awaiting the massive aid rush on behalf of all these concerned parties that are so worried about the damage dealt to Ni. I mean, given their massive outpouring of concern over the past few days, the aid should practically be spilling all over the place, right?

And for every technology raid victim from here on out. I mean, surely the lion's share of the criticism was not just politically motivated! That is just inconceivable.

[Zangmonkey]

And for every technology raid victim from here on out. I mean, surely the lion's share of the criticism was not just politically motivated! That is just inconceivable.

I'll snip from a previous post of mine:

The matter of consequence is that this behavior has historically fallen outside of the realm of acceptable tech raiding.

Who defines what is and is not acceptable? Like everything else in the cyberverse, it is defined by precedence and acceptance.

Each of us has a justified interest in what is to be considered "acceptable" behavior in the cyberverse.

Each of us has a justified interest in the prevailing use of military.

Each of us has a justified interest in not allowing this behavior to become commonplace.

If for only to prevent this paradigm shift, each of us has a reason to impede.

[Denial]

I'll snip from a previous post of mine:

The matter of consequence is that this behavior has historically fallen outside of the realm of acceptable tech raiding.

Who defines what is and is not acceptable? Like everything else in the cyberverse, it is defined by precedence and acceptance.

Each of us has a justified interest in what is to be considered "acceptable" behavior in the cyberverse.

Each of us has a justified interest in the prevailing use of military.

Each of us has a justified interest in not allowing this behavior to become commonplace.

If for only to prevent this paradigm shift, each of us has a reason to impede.

So, the plight of tech raided nations claiming allegiance to alliance affiliations of less than 39 nations does not receive your sympathy? Your financial support? Your moral outrage? All because of some arbitrary, invisible number? You sir, are a monster.

[Archon]

http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp...&Extended=1

One isolated case does not a pattern make.

http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp...yallexact=exact

The results of the above link are less than inspiring.

Edited November 17, 2009 by TheNeverender

[Bob Janova]

Over $50m has been sent to nations while they were on the Ni! AA, and some more to those who have dropped AA.

Edit: Revanche, you're being ridiculous. There are over 1800 wars currently active, most of which will be raids; to aid each nation that is attacked would cost over five billion dollars. Just because it is impractical to help every nation that is attacked doesn't give you carte blanche to attack any alliance you feel like.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Bob Janova

[Zangmonkey]

So, the plight of tech raided nations claiming allegiance to alliance affiliations of less than 39 nations does not receive your sympathy? Your financial support? Your moral outrage? All because of some arbitrary, invisible number? You sir, are a monster.

forgive my ignorance and aim me in the direction of other, equally obviously established, alliances being attacked en masse under the guide of "tech raiding" and I shall make my position known there as well.

[Denial]

forgive my ignorance and aim me in the direction of other, equally obviously established, alliances being attacked en masse under the guide of "tech raiding" and I shall make my position known there as well.

So, not only do you neglect technology raid victims because the community they participate in does not meet your lofty membership count standards, but also because of the entirely subjective judgement on how 'established' their alliance is. It looks as if receiving assistance from the Matthew PK Fund for Tech Raid Victims is about as demanding as acquiring financial support from the IMF. Worry not, I will be sure to fire off a private message requesting your support whenever I find a small alliance suffering technology raids - an almost daily occurrence - just in case you lower your pre-requisites.