Athens - KoFN resolution

[Starcraftmazter]

How much aid is being offered to KoFN for this unjust war?

[James I]

How much aid is being offered to KoFN for this unjust war?

I'll admit; I had to double-take at the labelling you applied there.

[Azhrei]

I find it interesting how those jumping down our throats believe that the tiny fraction of Athens who participated in the raid were fully backed up by the rest of us. There's a lot of talking going on inside Athens, but most believe that Londo is truly sorry for his actions in authorising, and participating in, the attack. Those who did not are also partly at fault because we did not think to stop that small number of members and warn them about it being a bad idea, that there might be a severe political fallout as a result, that it was wrong before it ever happened. I count myself among the people who received notice of the raid and thought nothing of warning those involved.

We are sincerely humbled by the notices of support from our allies. We do not deserve it.

To those such as Thorgrum and Dochartaigh, and all those others who are morally "outraged" by the attack, you seem much angrier about this than KofN ever were. The mistake was made, it cannot be unmade, and we have apologised, and are trying to do right by them. They have accepted the apology and we are hoping to further our relations with them. The alliance affected by the attack are happy we made contact and offering recompense - they do not ask for more. Why then, should you call for our destruction when they do not?

As I said, there is a lot of discussion taking place inside Athens at the moment. Don't for a moment believe that we all agreed with the attack.

capitalC, if someone doesn't reprimand you for such stupid posts sometime soon, I will be very surprised.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Azhrei

[Some-Guy]

My most humble and grovelling apology if this question had been answered already, but are FoB in concurrence with Athens' "Making it right" policy?

[Thorgrum]

To those such as Thorgrum and Dochartaigh, and all those others who are morally "outraged" by the attack, you seem much angrier about this than KofN ever were. The mistake was made, it cannot be unmade, and we have apologised, and are trying to do right by them. They have accepted the apology and we are hoping to further our relations with them. The alliance affected by the attack are happy we made contact and offering recompense - they do not ask for more. Why then, should you call for our destruction when they do not?

Reread my posts, I dont call for your destruction, I suggested KOFN should seek it. I dont hold any power within my alliance government other then being an active participant in the process, IE I cant call for Athens destruction I dont have the power.

I can though make replies on what is a clear and blatant hostile act which no matter how loudly you, londo or your allies shout was clear disregard for another alliance. If it wasnt why would you have appologized? Again, shout as loud as you want the intent from the start was clear Penkala's thread is filled with gems from Athens posters. I didnt see much regret intially at all until the !@#$ hit the fan, now we have this.

If they accept your appology and remuneration for this, as I have said, I have even less respect for them. Im all for war I dont even care if the CB is valid or not, dressing it up as a tech raid is ridiculous and my "moral outrage" is about intent and sincerity. Not only for Athens but the blow hards who I personally witnessed publically and privately shouting about this situation. I believe this is a contrived and forced outcome, if the pressure never came, KOFN would have been rolled for no good reason.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck its a duck. The fact you needed allies to make public proclomations of support emboldens my position on intent and sincerity, I am not the only one who sees it for what it is.

quack, quack

[Bob Janova]

I find it interesting how those jumping down our throats believe that the tiny fraction of Athens who participated in the raid were fully backed up by the rest of us.

The 'raid' was authorised and even participated in by your top government official. Was NPO's war on OV not really a war because only 60 NPOers could get slots? Internal disagreements are internal, and while government officials do have a certain latitude for personal opinions and actions, being a part of an alliance-wide (for the target) war means that it is an Athens-sanctioned action.

well, it does seem people think they are actually sorry about their actions instead of sorry about the consequences to their actions.

I agree, but since their allies have said in no uncertain terms that they won't be supporting actions like this, and since the world has clearly laid down a line that will not be crossed, the action won't be repeated. That's welcome, even if it's because of a lack of power not a lack of will. I don't think that the Hegemony has really changed in attitude either, but because they now lack power, things are better.

[Denial]

heh. so yet again the new Athens is proving to have no ballz except when it comes to smaller alliances.

This critique is as nonsensical as it is unnecessarily inflammatory. You have personally subjected the Cyberverse to extended diatribes, censuring Athens for its belligerence shown against the Knights of Ni, yet seem genuinely disappointed that this debacle did not escalate further into a global, or semi-global conflict. You denounce Athens for their numerous attacks on the Knights of Ni, yet continue to castigate the alliance following their numerous statements of error, apologies, and indications that they will correct past wrongs. Given that neither the initial transgression, nor the diplomatic and amicable solution, are acceptable to you, what would you have Athens do? Could it be that your criticism of Athens is not founded on any grasp of rational thought, but instead on the quest to satiate bloodlust?

First you argue that you did nothing wrong, as there's no difference in the number of people within an alliance that makes it raid worthy (a precedent which I started.) Now you're admitting you did something wrong and you're hoping to make it right and hope to gain favour through a very quick turnaround in your attitude.

My response to you is similar to that of my response to Dochartaigh. Tell me, what exactly would you have Athens do? Quite obviously, Athens does not have access to the astronaut jones DeLorean, and thus cannot return to a time prior to the technology raids. Subsequently, another solution must be found. Athens has recognised and acknowledged their errors, profusely apologised, and have approached the Knights of Ni in order to negotiate a peaceful settlement. Would you rather them maintain their initial, flawed stance that proclaimed they had done no wrong? If you genuinely cared for the nations of the Knights of Ni, as you claim to, you would choose to facilitate a diplomatic solution to this issue, rather than play armchair politics and throw out entirely useless criticism at every opportunity.

that is the issue. currently this is fixed but once Athens gains more strength and more allies, will they do this again? if the apology and the motivation behind these actions were sincere, one could easily assume that Athens would not do this again. but since it is forced, we can never assume that. thus, i am happy that they ended the war on KofN and are possibly paying reps. but i will not pat Athens on the back when it is obvious they do not honestly feel they did anything wrong in the least and in fact, Londo stated that those who disapproved of Athens were wrong to do so.

Athens already possessed the political and military clout to resolve this issue without public statements of error or apologies. The fact that Athens has acquiesced to allied and public opinion is a clear display that they are not advocates of a "might makes right" method of political interaction. It is also indicative of a recognition of wrong-doing and a clear sign that the alliance will not repeat the same mistake twice.

Reread my posts, I dont call for your destruction, I suggested KOFN should seek it.

That's... pretty much the exact same thing. By encouraging the Knights of Ni to pursue Athens' destruction, you are publicly declaring your support for such a move.

I can though make replies on what is a clear and blatant hostile act which no matter how loudly you, londo or your allies shout was clear disregard for another alliance. If it wasnt why would you have appologized?

I recommend you take some time to comprehend what is contained within the statements of error and apologies that you are disparaging. Each clearly states, on numerous occasions, that Londo and Athens accept responsibility for their actions. Further, Athens recognises its behaviour was unacceptable, and is seeking to make amends.

Again, shout as loud as you want the intent from the start was clear Penkala's thread is filled with gems from Athens posters. I didnt see much regret intially at all until the !@#$ hit the fan, now we have this.

Yes, that is generally how it works; when one commits an act that is believed to be within the realms of acceptable, it is not until a potent reprimand is received that one realises that perhaps the initial judgement on the permissability of said act was faulty.

If they accept your appology and remuneration for this, as I have said, I have even less respect for them. Im all for war I dont even care if the CB is valid or not, dressing it up as a tech raid is ridiculous and my "moral outrage" is about intent and sincerity. Not only for Athens but the blow hards who I personally witnessed publically and privately shouting about this situation. I believe this is a contrived and forced outcome, if the pressure never came, KOFN would have been rolled for no good reason.

Interesting. You would be content if Athens were to publicly declare a war on Knights of Ni, with a trumped-up casus belli, yet you are frothing at the mouth with righteous indignation over this situation? Not that I wish it to happen, but if The Gremlins were to be attacked without adequate justification on the part of the aggressors, I sure hope we do not see you complaining.

The fact you needed allies to make public proclomations of support emboldens my position on intent and sincerity...

wat

On top of everything else, I hope that everyone who stood up to Athens' tech raiding will be consistent and stand up to others who attempt to tech raid alliances. I dislike tech raiding in general and especially dislike it when it is used to justify what is in essence a war, something which Athens is by no means the first to do.

Indeed. I will be sorely disappointed if that, going forwards, this venue of discussion is not plastered with lengthy condemnations of raiding alliances selecting affiliated targets, whether those victims belong to an alliance of four members or forty. It would just be so anti-climatic if this moral intransigence does not continue, if we do not get the pleasure of Grub threatening his own allies with warfare, if we do not get to see individuals criticise the initial attacks as well as the ensuing diplomatic resolutions, each time there is a technology or land raid.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Revanche

[Thorgrum]

That's... pretty much the exact same thing. By encouraging the Knights of Ni to pursue Athens' destruction, you are publicly declaring your support for such a move.

Encouraging them to fight back from an unprovked attack, gather allies and build a coalition against the attack is what I advocated and still do. "destruction" is an undefined term in the context you are presenting, attributing it to my position where I have already been clear on what I mean in prior posts suggests you didnt read those posts, dont care or are quacking with the rest of the ducks.

I recommend you take some time to comprehend what is contained within the statements of error and apologies that you are disparaging. Each clearly states, on numerous occasions, that Londo and Athens accept responsibility for their actions. Further, Athens recognises its behaviour was unacceptable, and is seeking to make amends.

I comprehend that, I recommend you comprehend the intent of the initial action, the response to the action and the subsequent "statements of error and apologies" Would you like a link to Penkala's thread to help in your data collection process?

Yes, that is generally how it works; when one commits an act that is believed to be within the realms of acceptable, it is not until a potent reprimand is received that one realises that perhaps the initial judgement on the permissability of said act was faulty.

That maybe true but it dismisses intent and sincerity and if you believe the current posture from Athens as sincere you must devoid of information of intent (see above reccommendation to read penkala's thread)

Interesting. You would be content if Athens were to publicly declare a war on Knights of Ni, with a trumped-up casus belli, yet you are frothing at the mouth with righteous indignation over this situation? Not that I wish it to happen, but if The Gremlins were to be attacked without adequate justification on the part of the aggressors, I sure hope we do not see you complaining.

Your supposing a great deal, but I will play. First no I wouldnt complain I would fight back and I wouldnt accept a contrived forced appology for the aggression. Im not frothing at the mouth at all, Im calling a duck a duck my posts are consistant and to the point -intent and sincerity- after the fact. I dislike seeing unaligneds being rolled and I have no doubt thats exactly what would have happened. I am also publically questioning the blow hards who screamed and yelled publically and privately and seemingly have accepted that athens made a boo boo.

Again, intent and sincerity I find lacking in this process, if you find that not to be true your entitled to your opinion just as I am. Ive restated my point of view enough times I dont need to be redunadant, its a duck and it quacked like one. I suppose though if you put your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalalalalalala" loud enough you wouldnt hear it.

[ojiras ajeridas]

First of all, I'm really happy that this conflict has been avoided. I don't want to make a long speech about the reasons for that - if it has been only the pressure by some bigger alliances who weren't very amused about this thing, or if it was Athens itself to see what they actually were doing. I hope that all involved and not involved alliances get clear that you can't simply attack another alliance because they are big and the other alliance is small, declaring it as a tech deal and expect that the whole world see it in the same way. Attacking an alliance is - per definition - an attack on an alliance. Or what would you say if NPO tomorrow attacked Grämlins or Echelon declaring it a tech raid (took these alliance only because the proportion of member count is quite the same).

But... one thing I have to ask... and I'm really sorry if I'm a bit short minded here, but memory has never been my best... what where the reps again?

[D34th]

Indeed. I will be sorely disappointed if that, going forwards, this venue of discussion is not plastered with lengthy condemnations of raiding alliances selecting affiliated targets, whether those victims belong to an alliance of four members or forty. It would just be so anti-climatic if this moral intransigence does not continue, if we do not get the pleasure of Grub threatening his own allies with warfare, if we do not get to see individuals criticise the initial attacks as well as the ensuing diplomatic resolutions, each time there is a technology or land raid.

Please tell me where Grub threatened our own allies with warfare. I hope you aren't refering to this:

Archon, I love you dearly, but I will go through you if you stand in my way... but you know that already. I am tired of the only alliances being accountable for their deliberate actions as being ones that have Order in their name.

[Seerow]

Please tell me where Grub threatened our own allies with warfare. I hope you aren't refering to this:

I believe he was. Or are you unaware that NpO has a treaty with MK, which Grub ignored to publicly threaten to roll through us to go after Athens in response to an action that has no effect on the NpO whatsoever?

[Denial]

Please tell me where Grub threatened our own allies with warfare. I hope you aren't refering to this:

That's the one. Looks like a fairly clear example of a threat to me.

[agnews]

I believe he was. Or are you unaware that NpO has a treaty with MK, which Grub ignored to publicly threaten to roll through us to go after Athens in response to an action that has no effect on the NpO whatsoever?

i will admit i am unaware of NpO treaties but i got the impression that the victum here was mdp+ to them

[Seerow]

i will admit i am unaware of NpO treaties but i got the impression that the victum here was mdp+ to them

They have no treaty with Knights of Ni. Which is why it caused a lot of head scratching, because aside from moralistic bs they had no reason to be involved. (Neither did most of the other involved parties either, but that's a different point altogether).

The only treaty Knights of Ni had was with MASH. And as per the MASH announcement regarding this, half of their gov didn't even know it existed. It had apparently been carried over from a merger, and resigned in an embassy, but never got posted on OWF, the Wiki, or anything else, and MASH had to go digging to find it. Apparently they had no communication with each other since signing that treaty some 18 months ago so it just became forgotten.

Seriously guys, with how confounded the treaty web is do you think Athens would have been stupid enough to raid anyone with even one public treaty? I know global opinion of Athens is at an all time low, but they're not -that- stupid.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Seerow

[Mixoux]

Or are you unaware that NpO has a treaty with MK, which Grub ignored to publicly threaten to roll through us to go after Athens in response to an action that has no effect on the NpO whatsoever?

Well hey. As you know, the only alliances that are held accountable for their actions are the orders. Grub said it himself.

[Seerow]

Well hey. As you know, the only alliances that are held accountable for their actions are the orders. Grub said it himself.

True enough, everyone else gets held accountable for other alliance's actions.

[agnews]

They have no treaty with Knights of Ni. Which is why it caused a lot of head scratching, because aside from moralistic bs they had no reason to be involved. (Neither did most of the other involved parties either, but that's a different point altogether).

o wow

not expected at all

my opionon of the order just droped radically

[Mixoux]

True enough, everyone else gets held accountable for other alliance's actions.

Sometimes you just gotta step up and carry the torch against evil, corruption, and immoralism in CN.

[ChairmanHal]

Seriously guys, with how confounded the treaty web is do you think Athens would have been stupid enough to raid anyone with even one public treaty? I know global opinion of Athens is at an all time low, but they're not -that- stupid.

The argument isn't over whether or not Athens was stupid, the argument is whether or not Athens was merely ignorant or acted in a callous and arrogant way and did sloppy intel work. A background check of KoN would have dug up the MASH treaty. If MASH had asked, "what treaty?" before the raid, then this is a completely different discussion.

[Sir Paul]

o wow

not expected at all

my opionon of the order just droped radically

I don't see why it would. According to Grub: "Athens have agreed to apologize for their actions and release a non-bring it policy. We are satisfied with that outcome." I thought in the post-hedgemony™ world, people could stand up for what they think is right, and when justice happens, we all go back to holding hands and singing kumbaya. In my humble opinion, Polar pressure probably helped the Knights get that apology.

[Seerow]

The argument isn't over whether or not Athens was stupid, the argument is whether or not Athens was merely ignorant or acted in a callous and arrogant way and did sloppy intel work. A background check of KoN would have dug up the MASH treaty. If MASH had asked, "what treaty?" before the raid, then this is a completely different discussion.

Well you look on the Wiki and OWF, and see nothing. At this point in time you figure you're clear.

You attack, you then hear a few people saying there was a treaty with MASH. You go to MASH and ask if there's a treaty. They say "I see no indication of a treaty" until an older member goes digging through forum archives from 18 months ago and comes back out with the treaty and goes "oops, my bad, we did have that treaty"

I fail to see how it's sloppy intel work, nobody could have known the treaty existed outside of KoN or the less than a half dozen people in MASH government who were around at the time the treaty was signed.

I don't see why it would. According to Grub: "Athens have agreed to apologize for their actions and release a non-bring it policy. We are satisfied with that outcome." I thought in the post-hedgemony™ world, people could stand up for what they think is right, and when justice happens, we all go back to holding hands and singing kumbaya. In my humble opinion, Polar pressure probably helped the Knights get that apology.

Yes, well, we all know how you treat your allies, so I'm certain you do look favorably upon telling a MDoAP partner that you will go to war with them over an issue that you have no stake in. Most people however will see this and be left with a bitter taste in their mouth.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Seerow

[Archon]

In my humble opinion, Polar pressure probably helped the Knights get that apology.

Speaking as an informed party - no, it didn't. It merely made matters worse, more confused, and contributed heavily to a whole lot of poor quality commentary that spread all over these fine forums.

[Zangmonkey]

I apologize if this has already been answered.

Since you are nwt seeing the error in your action, will you be returning all stolen tech, cash and pay for destroyed valuables?

After all, the irresponsible and dishonorable action here, if in fact Athens believes it to be the case, was the initial attacks and theft.

The only acceptable resolution is the return of the stolen goods.

If this passes without Athens reimbursing in entirety all of the victims in the KofN then Athens will have got away with theft;

Furthermore, the cowardice of KofN is only surpassed by the cowardice of the rest of us for quietly consenting in the name of "peace"

Edited November 16, 2009 by Matthew PK

[Seerow]

I apologize if this has already been answered.

Since you are nwt seeing the error in your action, will you be returning all stolen tech, cash and pay for destroyed valuables?

After all, the irresponsible and dishonorable action here, if in fact Athens believes it to be the case, was the initial attacks and theft.

The only acceptable resolution is the return of the stolen goods.

If this passes without Athens reimbursing in entirety all of the victims in the KofN then Athens will have got away with theft;

Furthermore, the cowardice of KofN is only surpassed by the cowardice of the rest of us for quietly consenting in the name of "peace"

Congratulations you are officially the 5000th person to say this. Have a cookie. If you'd like you can sell said cookie to help contribute to the "Save those poor defenseless Knights of Ni" foundation.

[Sir Paul]

Yes, well, we all know how you treat your allies, so I'm certain you do look favorably upon telling a MDoAP partner that you will go to war with them over an issue that you have no stake in. Most people however will see this and be left with a bitter taste in their mouth.

An injustice somewhere is an injustice everywhere, making it everyone's business. And now that the arbitors of justice have given way to the incarnation of karma, I look forward to this brave new world.