Bob Janova Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 It takes a man to step up and admit a mistake, i can respect you for that. However, i will withhold judgement until KoN receives reparations (I've already seen aid transactions, so the announcement of it is probably only a matter of time).I hope we wont see that again. This man speaks for me also. You made a bad mistake, but it is good that you are prepared to admit that and make things right. As for those of you who are claiming this is the end of war – don't be silly. This is setting a precedent that declaring a war for no reason at all is not acceptable, which has really been true for the entirety of history except the time when a belligerent bloc could push it through the tide of public opinion. There will be wars in future, fought over political power, espionage, influence or a thousand other reasons, just as there have through history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgrum Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 A large alliance within a powerful bloc declares an offensive war on a non alligned, express no regret and justify it with multiple posts from its members. Then realize others on the planet dont like it and do a complete reversal of tone, get supporting proclomations from thier largest allies and begin the process of posting attempted sincere appologies and sorrow for the initial action (didnt see that sentiment when penkala came out and asked what was going on, someone say sincerity?) The other precedent we have is people slapping Athens on the back saying "good for you for admitting your wrong and making it right", Im waiting for one of you big boys (you know who you are) to question the intent of the actons taken from begining to where we are now, this back slapping "good job your fixing it" is pathetic, you are either outraged by the attack or you arent. If you are congratulating them now makes your sincerity just as suspect, simply pathetic on many levels. Look up the word sincerity, the outrage was and is a joke the intent was clear from the begining this was a gang bang on these people. Just because they got thier allies to back them publically should not be an inducement to congratulate thier rethinking of thier actions (remember sincerity) or any reconcilliation politically and should, at a minimum induce real questions as to whom your tied to how and what do they really represent. The moral outrage, now, is almost as pathetic as the 180 done by athens. KoFN, if you are out there you absolutely shouldnt take any peace offering, you were attacked without warrant you should begin to build a coalition of alliances who feel that this unprovoked attack warrants a military response and begin to respond in that manner, whether it be now or over time. Otherwise you'll be just as pathetic as the moralists who have done nothing tangible and your attackers who are now sorry for thier actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragashingo Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 The other precedent we have is people slapping Athens on the back saying "good for you for admitting your wrong and making it right", Im waiting for one of you big boys (you know who you are) to question the intent of the actons taken from begining to where we are now, this back slapping "good job your fixing it" is pathetic, you are either outraged by the attack or you arent. If you are congratulating them now makes your sincerity just as suspect, simply pathetic on many levels. Look up the word sincerity, the outrage was and is a joke the intent was clear from the begining this was a gang bang on these people. Just because they got thier allies to back them publically should not be an inducement to congratulate thier rethinking of thier actions (remember sincerity) or any reconcilliation politically and should, at a minimum induce real questions as to whom your tied to how and what do they really represent. The world is more complex than you are making it out to be. One can be outraged at what his ally did but also happy when that ally listens to the outrage and moves to correct its mistakes. Or are we supposed to stay outraged at Athens forever? The moral outrage, now, is almost as pathetic as the 180 done by athens. KoFN, if you are out there you absolutely shouldnt take any peace offering, you were attacked without warrant you should begin to build a coalition of alliances who feel that this unprovoked attack warrants a military response and begin to respond in that manner, whether it be now or over time. Otherwise you'll be just as pathetic as the moralists who have done nothing tangible and your attackers who are now sorry for thier actions. I don't see how building a coalition and attacking Athens for a mistake that they have admitted to and are working to rectify is in any way justifiable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 heh. so yet again the new Athens is proving to have no ballz except when it comes to smaller alliances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drostan Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 A large alliance within a powerful bloc declares an offensive war on a non alligned, express no regret and justify it with multiple posts from its members. Then realize others on the planet dont like it and do a complete reversal of tone, get supporting proclomations from thier largest allies and begin the process of posting attempted sincere appologies and sorrow for the initial action (didnt see that sentiment when penkala came out and asked what was going on, someone say sincerity?)The other precedent we have is people slapping Athens on the back saying "good for you for admitting your wrong and making it right", Im waiting for one of you big boys (you know who you are) to question the intent of the actons taken from begining to where we are now, this back slapping "good job your fixing it" is pathetic, you are either outraged by the attack or you arent. If you are congratulating them now makes your sincerity just as suspect, simply pathetic on many levels. Look up the word sincerity, the outrage was and is a joke the intent was clear from the begining this was a gang bang on these people. Just because they got thier allies to back them publically should not be an inducement to congratulate thier rethinking of thier actions (remember sincerity) or any reconcilliation politically and should, at a minimum induce real questions as to whom your tied to how and what do they really represent. The moral outrage, now, is almost as pathetic as the 180 done by athens. KoFN, if you are out there you absolutely shouldnt take any peace offering, you were attacked without warrant you should begin to build a coalition of alliances who feel that this unprovoked attack warrants a military response and begin to respond in that manner, whether it be now or over time. Otherwise you'll be just as pathetic as the moralists who have done nothing tangible and your attackers who are now sorry for thier actions. While I do think you somewhat over-state the case, there is some truth in what this man says. If I were the KoFN, I would not treat this as a giant tech raid, I would treat it as an undeclared war. I would strike back as well as I could (which is probably limited given the nature of the alliance) and I would seek to find allies to help me in the fight against a much larger foe. No alliance likes to be violated like KoFN were, and so if it were my alliance I definitely wouldn't be peacing out. But then again, these guys probably don't have much interest in war, and would rather just get back to growing their nations in private. *shrugs* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgrum Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 The world is more complex than you are making it out to be. One can be outraged at what his ally did but also happy when that ally listens to the outrage and moves to correct its mistakes. Or are we supposed to stay outraged at Athens forever? You? Thats your choice, KOFN? I dont know Id be pissed for sometime no matter how many times they say "I'm sorry". You can accept an apology and still be pissed about the circumstance. Fair point on the complexity of the world, part of that complexity is intent and sincerity after the intent is called out, which both are fair game in this case. If you want to let it go and focus on the positive aspect of Athens making thier bones, thats cool I dont dispute thats a valid approach you have been consistant, there are others who shouted pretty loudly about this publically and privately who are now not consistant and they know who they are. I don't see how building a coalition and attacking Athens for a mistake that they have admitted to and are working to rectify is in any way justifiable. In anyway justifiable would be a matter of perspective, in KoFN's case I can see it being perfectly justifiable which was the context of my assertion. You know do something about it, if I recall that was the overarching sentiment coming from Athens in Penkala's thread. But people can change, its just in a complex world people should attempt to qualify intent and sincerity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heft Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 I personally see this whole thing as a non-issue , an alliance can attack whoever they want without reason , their target can retaliate , other alliances can get involved if they so choose . where exactly is the problem ? Nobody was really disputing that such a thing could happen, and in fact other alliances were poised to get involved, hence where we are now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragashingo Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 You? Thats your choice, KOFN? I dont know Id be pissed for sometime no matter how many times they say "I'm sorry". You can accept an apology and still be pissed about the circumstance. Fair point on the complexity of the world, part of that complexity is intent and sincerity after the intent is called out, which both are fair game in this case. If you want to let it go and focus on the positive aspect of Athens making thier bones, thats cool I dont dispute thats a valid approach you have been consistant, there are others who shouted pretty loudly about this publically and privately who are now not consistant and they know who they are. I agree intent is important as well. I think Londo intended to try and overturn a CN "law" that he should have left alone. It has gotten him in quite a bit of trouble as we can all see. But I also believe he is sincere in his apology and promise to fix the situation. Yes, he was forced to be sincere but I don't have much of a problem with that. He tried to promote his view point, we told him quite loudly that he was wrong, he accepted that and is now moving to fix the damage he caused. I can understand people being upset with him for doing what he did but at some point we have to move on, especially if his compensation to the alliance he wronged is satisfactory. I think its quite silly to suggest that Athens should be ZIed or that there should be some sort of long term coalition built against them as some have done. On top of everything else, I hope that everyone who stood up to Athens' tech raiding will be consistent and stand up to others who attempt to tech raid alliances. I dislike tech raiding in general and especially dislike it when it is used to justify what is in essence a war, something which Athens is by no means the first to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astronaut jones Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 First you argue that you did nothing wrong, as there's no difference in the number of people within an alliance that makes it raid worthy (a precedent which I started.) Now you're admitting you did something wrong and you're hoping to make it right and hope to gain favour through a very quick turnaround in your attitude. I told you, you couldn't have it both ways. You think people are stupid enough that they believe you when you say you're sorry, and that you guys made a mistake? You're only sorry because of the overwhelming odds against you. Atleast pretend that you've got a pair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 I agree intent is important as well. I think Londo intended to try and overturn a CN "law" that he should have left alone. It has gotten him in quite a bit of trouble as we can all see. But I also believe he is sincere in his apology and promise to fix the situation. Yes, he was forced to be sincere but I don't have much of a problem with that. He tried to promote his view point, we told him quite loudly that he was wrong, he accepted that and is now moving to fix the damage he caused. I can understand people being upset with him for doing what he did but at some point we have to move on, especially if his compensation to the alliance he wronged is satisfactory. I think its quite silly to suggest that Athens should be ZIed or that there should be some sort of long term coalition built against them as some have done. On top of everything else, I hope that everyone who stood up to Athens' tech raiding will be consistent and stand up to others who attempt to tech raid alliances. I dislike tech raiding in general and especially dislike it when it is used to justify what is in essence a war, something which Athens is by no means the first to do. i honestly don't think you can ever force sincerity on anyone. thus, this was by no means sincere just necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 First you argue that you did nothing wrong, as there's no difference in the number of people within an alliance that makes it raid worthy (a precedent which I started.) Now you're admitting you did something wrong and you're hoping to make it right and hope to gain favour through a very quick turnaround in your attitude.I told you, you couldn't have it both ways. You think people are stupid enough that they believe you when you say you're sorry, and that you guys made a mistake? You're only sorry because of the overwhelming odds against you. Atleast pretend that you've got a pair. well, it does seem people think they are actually sorry about their actions instead of sorry about the consequences to their actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astronaut jones Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 well, it does seem people think they are actually sorry about their actions instead of sorry about the consequences to their actions. Up until the moment they did an about face, there was not even a hint in their rhetoric that they had done anything wrong. There is usually a slow realization that people $%&@ed up, you can see the softening in their rhetoric, in the brashness of their members, there was none of that with Athens. It was just "Screw you guys, we were right, there's nothing wrong with this fight! Y'all are just playa hatin and possibly perpetratin'" until they went "We are sincerely sorry for what we have done, it was wrong, I am wrong, I sacrifice myself, I'm like jesus, I'm going to die for your sins, which are really my sins but please don't hurt me and my friends since we're very sorry. See? Sorry hats are on." It's just all too convenient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Up until the moment they did an about face, there was not even a hint in their rhetoric that they had done anything wrong. There is usually a slow realization that people $%&@ed up, you can see the softening in their rhetoric, in the brashness of their members, there was none of that with Athens. It was just "Screw you guys, we were right, there's nothing wrong with this fight! Y'all are just playa hatin and possibly perpetratin'" until they went "We are sincerely sorry for what we have done, it was wrong, I am wrong, I sacrifice myself, I'm like jesus, I'm going to die for your sins, which are really my sins but please don't hurt me and my friends since we're very sorry. See? Sorry hats are on."It's just all too convenient. i completely agree. honestly, the last paragraph in this thread: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=73746 states exactly how Athens truly thinks and most seem more than willing to ignore it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Rune Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 To be honest, whatever their reasons for the turnaround, I'm glad they have. I am waiting to see what restitution they offer to KoFN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragashingo Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 i honestly don't think you can ever force sincerity on anyone. thus, this was by no means sincere just necessary. Perhaps not, but I don't really care about the minute difference as long as the mistake is fixed and not committed again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Perhaps not, but I don't really care about the minute difference as long as the mistake is fixed and not committed again. that is the issue. currently this is fixed but once Athens gains more strength and more allies, will they do this again? if the apology and the motivation behind these actions were sincere, one could easily assume that Athens would not do this again. but since it is forced, we can never assume that. thus, i am happy that they ended the war on KofN and are possibly paying reps. but i will not pat Athens on the back when it is obvious they do not honestly feel they did anything wrong in the least and in fact, Londo stated that those who disapproved of Athens were wrong to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Uruk Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 So Athens does submit to public opinion?Noted. No, they submit to their allies' opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astronaut jones Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 (edited) i completely agree. honestly, the last paragraph in this thread: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=73746 states exactly how Athens truly thinks and most seem more than willing to ignore it. And it's a shame that they do ignore it, because my guess is sooner, rather than later, athens will attempt something like this again, as they in no way seem sincere in their apology. If they were sincere, they would at the very least, amend their raiding policy so nothing like this happens again. No 3 on 1 on raids, no raiding alliances over xx members, but it's much easier to fake being sorry than to actually attempt to change. [edit:] I know the "no 3 on 1" raids is a hard one to enforce. Raiders are vultures, once someone has been marked as being a target, they all jump on and start to feast, so you'll never really be successful in enforcing that, but you can if you enforce a rule saying that the 3rd and last slot must always be open if an athens member is to either initiate or hop on a raid. and no athens nation can jump in on a raid done by an ally, nor can they recruit allies to fill slots on any of their raids. You can't stop the world from filling up all 3 slots on a raid, but you can control how the slots are used by your own people. Edited November 15, 2009 by astronaut jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Parasite Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Seth says:yeah that's fine hey I am sorry if raiding you guys caused you any problems I find this part to be particularly entertaining. It doesn't take that... much... intelligence to realize that a raid causes problems. A more appropriate and truthful apology given the situation would be: hey I am sorry that raiding you caused us problems This would never have happened if it wasn't for the outcry on the OWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astronaut jones Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 I find this part to be particularly entertaining. It doesn't take that... much... intelligence to realize that a raid causes problems. A more appropriate and truthful apology given the situation would be:This would never have happened if it wasn't for the outcry on the OWF. You know, I think that PB would absolutely love if people were straight up honest. People RESPECT honesty, more people and more alliances need to adopt that sort of attitude. Honesty is powerful. True honesty, that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgrum Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 I agree intent is important as well. I think Londo intended to try and overturn a CN "law" that he should have left alone. It has gotten him in quite a bit of trouble as we can all see. But I also believe he is sincere in his apology and promise to fix the situation. Yes, he was forced to be sincere but I don't have much of a problem with that. He tried to promote his view point, we told him quite loudly that he was wrong, he accepted that and is now moving to fix the damage he caused. I can understand people being upset with him for doing what he did but at some point we have to move on, especially if his compensation to the alliance he wronged is satisfactory. I think its quite silly to suggest that Athens should be ZIed or that there should be some sort of long term coalition built against them as some have done. I think from your perspective you have a valid position and point, from the moralists who screamed about it and from thier "raid" target I think my point is just as valid. Ive got no problem with tech raiding unaligned nations, i do have issues with people who tech raid soverign alliances, I did when it was the popcorn war and I will again if someone else does it. Should Athens be zi'd? That should be up to KOFN to determine how they want to proceed after being declared war on. If they come out and say "yep it was just a tech raid folks we forgive" I would laugh in thier face hard. When your declared on its prudent to accumulate a force to deal with the threat and exact reperations you deem necessary and to punish the intent of the initial action I personally believe that would be boning up the military, gathering allies and fighting back, now or later but perhaps Im to black and white. On top of everything else, I hope that everyone who stood up to Athens' tech raiding will be consistent and stand up to others who attempt to tech raid alliances. I dislike tech raiding in general and especially dislike it when it is used to justify what is in essence a war, something which Athens is by no means the first to do. I dont think Athens is by any means unique or should be made whipping boy but Im simply confused how in 24 hours they established thier intent and insincerity for thier targets, then wham we have multiple appologies, allies confirming support with threats of retaliation etc. hence my continued commentary on intent and sincerity. "It dosent take a weatherman to know which way the wind blows" bob dylan tl;dr: they knew what they were doing, I dont believe for one minute they had a change of heart on thier initial intent only the unforseen consequnce of thier action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnews Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 this is weak backing down on your believes is poor no matter the circumstances either admit that you were wrong or fight for your principles this grey ground is just poor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Uruk Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 this is weak backing down on your believes is poor no matter the circumstances either admit that you were wrong or fight for your principles this grey ground is just poor Athens doesn't want to cause their allies trouble. Their allies don't want to see Athens hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegendoftheSkies Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Nobody was really disputing that such a thing could happen I think he was referring to the fake moral outrage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonewall14 Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Ahhh right. Mistake noted. Although I personally only lost like 60 soldiers in my little raid. Yeah it sounds like your real sorry about your "mistake"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.