Hell Scream Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) Sup Planet Bob, We Viridians heard that war is fun and all, but we decided that attacking defenseless nations isn't so much fun. So, we decided to attack each other, because nothing says camaraderie like attacking your comrades. Alliances of Bob, I hope that you too decide to tech raid your own alliance nations, because it's fun, and all. Edited November 14, 2009 by Hell Scream Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpoiL Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 peace sent. I've had my fun. I am bound by a mutual defense treaty to declare war on you. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tromp Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) Are we speaking existentially? No. I think, if I interpreted your reply correctly that is, that mixing OOC with IC is a bad thing to do. Which is why I was being sarcastic. Edited November 14, 2009 by Tromp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astronaut jones Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Look, londo.. I tried very unsuccessfully to argue the exact same thing, for a long period of time. I'd even go as far to say that it's because of the rules I came up with while leading Poison Clan that you're even daring to raid a 39 member alliance, but you know what? I was wrong, and so are you. You're failing to see that, while attempting to protect your own individual sovereignty, the sovereignty of your alliance, and, quite !@#$@#$ stupidly saying that "it's only because WE did it that you're mad, guy!", that you're completely disregarding the sovereignty of others, and of the Knights of Ni! I made the same mistake, and I thought, just like you, that I was in the right for doing it, and while yes there isn't a difference between raiding 1 or raiding 50, you're disregarding the rights of the individual nations, and of the alliance you're raiding, in an effort to make your point. You can't have it both ways, Londo. You can't raid 50 and say there's no difference between that and raiding 1, while attempting to argue about rights and such. You just can't. You have to decide, do you want to argue that there's no difference in raiding 50 than in raiding 1, or do you want to argue that there's a right way to go about tech raiding and that you're seeking to preserve your sovereign war rights in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperion321 Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 I am bound by a mutual defense treaty to declare war on you. B) do it. If i send you tech does it count as a raid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Sup Planet Bob,We Viridians heard that war is fun and all, but we decided that attacking defenseless nations isn't so much fun. So, we decided to attack each other, because nothing says camaraderie like attacking your comrades. Alliances of Bob, I hope that you too decide to tech raid your own alliance nations, because it's fun, and all. I see no problem with this. It's not like people join alliances for protection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heft Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 How brave and noble you truly are, defying the repressive masses with your attacks on a vulnerable community, liberating them from the clutches of their chosen monotony and lifestyle. You are heroes, Athens, of the highest order. OOC: If you have to resort to using OOC justifications for your IC actions then you're doing it wrong. Let's stop this inane metagaming crap and either play the game or comment on the game, not both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 The fact that you allowed this to happen in the first place makes me regret that I ever defended you (which I did often) when the situation of the NPO reps was occurring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenny N Karl Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Glad to see this ending. I hope that it does not become the norm. Because while it is fun for one side, the other side suffers. It could end up killing the alliance that gets raided. Not by your tech raids, but by those that follow your lead(the inevitable coat-tailers). ie- Lion attacks the gazelle, eats his full, then come the hyenas, then the vultures. In the end the bones are that are left. I have always felt that tech raids are the wake up call for non-aligned nations to find an alliance, not something that alliances should get used to doing to their fellow alliances. Lesson learned for KoNi, get treatied to friends or a protectorate to avoid being exposed like this again. I have recently talked with Londo in a meet & greet setting, I am sure that he is a decent ruler and leader. I doubt that Athens expected this type of reaction from others, and they have made moves to end their actions. Good luck with your rebuilding KoNi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonte Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 I would have hoped that you could have at least stuck to your convictions instead of caving in like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caspervc Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Mass raiding one alliance is bad, hmmmkay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oinkoink12 Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 So how much reps are you sending? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crymson Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 In response to the OP: When beginning any attempts at making amends for one's actions, it is generally wise to admit responsibility for one's actions. Also, it is generally inadvisable to note that your attempts to make amends with the other party stem mostly from your desire to avoid public disapproval. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 I would have hoped that you could have at least stuck to your convictions instead of caving in like this. Some people value infra more than convictions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Eeew. Athens, you're so mean raiding a 40 member alliance. Keep it at 10 man alliances though and it'll be sweet, kay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 ATHENS ANNOUNCEMENT There is no difference, morally speaking, between attacking a single nation without his consent, and attacking 5 nations, or 10 nations, or 15 nations, or even 39 nations. In any of these cases, what you are doing is initiating a combative interaction with another person without his consent. This is generally an accepted behavior on Bob, because without it, the vast majority of wars would have never happened. Since enjoyment of war is quite widespread on this little globe of ours, it is hypocrisy of the highest order to condemn someone for making the first move of aggression in any circumstance, because you are attacking the causes of something you enjoy, most probably to gain some political advantage for yourself. In my view, what is fundamentally more important to wars is not the way in which they are begun, but the way in which they are conducted. Most of the grief that has come out of war in this realm has done so because people attempt to utterly crush their opponents, to wipe them out of the world, to prevent them from ever possibly threatening to do the same thing to them. This destroys nations. It destroys the enjoyment of nation rulers and they depart this world, often never to return. Curbstomps are less enjoyable for those who initiate them, as well as for those who are on the receiving end, compared to more even wars. Tech raiding, when it is properly conducted, is nothing more than an invitation to engage in a reasonably even war. The reason that tech raiding does not normally have the explicit backing of the alliance is to prevent overwhelming advantages of numbers from building up and making any tech raid into a curb stomp or threat of one. Is war itself, of any kind, necessarily wrong? Or is it one of the most meaningful types of interactions we can have in this world, far more so than monotonous exchanges of cash for technology or quests for fixed resource trades? People do not die in this realm, soldiers can be bought back instantly. The only thing that really matters in the end is the enjoyment of the nation ruler, and I feel that reasonably fair contests of skill and strength provide for this admirably. I am not happy with the state of things, where war is demonized at all times but pursued to the utter destruction of foes, with white peace even after weeks and weeks of beating being seen as 'merciful'. Is this more civilized than honorable raiding? I do not think it is. It has been brought to my attention that there exists vast and widespread social disapproval of the recent raid made by Athens and Federation of Buccaneers upon Knights of Ni! I feel that much of this disapproval is fundamentally rooted in the desire to gain social or political advantage, but I do accept it as the dominant paradigm. In recognition of this, I can assure all of Planet Bob that Athens will no longer be engaging in tech raids of any kind on nations that occupy an affiliation which is recognized and listed by the world itself. We do not have the strength or the support to gain acceptance for our worldview, which is that limited conflict is good and healthy but striving for the utter destruction of foes is bad and wrong. We invite the Knights of Ni! to discuss this issue with us government to government if they would seek redress for our actions. Thank you, and good day. So let me see in I understood, First you start with the fallacy of there is no difference between an 5-10 men alliance and a 39 men alliance, then you say that initiating a combative interaction with another person without his consent is generally an accepted behavior on Bob but forget to say that people used to start wars because they had a Casus Belli, even NPO, the evil alliance, tried to produce poor CBs before start "combative interaction with another person without his consent" while you alliance attacked just because you could. Then you say that the way of wars are conducted are important than how they start and I say to you that things who starts wrong will hardly be corrected along the way. "As the twig is bent, so is the tree inclined" And after wall, even thinking Athens are right you end saying that you will do not raid alliances anymore? Well at least you are doing a good thing in the end, even if thinks in the wrong way yet and even if you already gained the bad PR. So I would like to ask, the stolen tech worth it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londo Mollari Posted November 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 You call this an even sided war? Your alliance alone, never mind FoB, is five times the size of the Knights of Ni!, and having three nations on all of them.....how is this even remotely even? And that is ignoring the rest of your fallacious statement. Nah, it was 3 on 3. And two of the guys we declared on were bigger than any of us. Some people value infra more than convictions. We have other convictions that are competing with this one, not a desire to preserve infra. We are not backing down because we are afraid of war, but because we wish to spare our allies from all the clods of false moralism flying around. Simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derwood1 Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 In response to the OP: When beginning any attempts at making amends for one's actions, it is generally wise to admit responsibility for one's actions. Also, it is generally inadvisable to note that your attempts to make amends with the other party stem mostly from your desire to avoid public disapproval. He was really just stating what happened and they were going to talk to Ni! ....and I'm sure no one else around here makes decisions based on politics and perceptions to avoid public disapproval or gain public approval Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 We have other convictions that are competing with this one, not a desire to preserve infra. We are not backing down because we are afraid of war, but because we wish to spare our allies from all the clods of false moralism flying around. Simple as that. I see. Even though you feel that you did nothing wrong, you are backing down not for fear of war, but because you don't want to see your allies lose infra? If you feel that you did nothing wrong, then why not stand by your convictions, and ask your allies to back you in those convictions? Isn't that what allies are for, to help you defend yourselves when you're in the right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scythegfx Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Everyone dies. Not everyone really lives. A sachs, good quote. or braveheart, take your pick. <Tick1|FoB> You act like we wouldn't pay reps to the nations who ask<Tick1|FoB> you act like we would bombard them if the GA back <Nintenderek> Tick1|FoB, if you would really pay reps to the nations you attacked <Tick1|FoB> I have before I would like to request that someone from Athens or Federation of Buccaneers send every sing person who was raided a message telling them that if they ask for reps, they can have them. Go send them those messages yourself then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Chocolate Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Noooo Tech raids are the same as taking someones watch because their not looking after it properly it is not stealing. You may want to double check what does and does not constitute "stealing." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomInterrupt Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 And people wonder why I describe Athens as utterly incompetent. But I suppose at this point it's either buckle and retreat or collapse, as it were. While I vote for collapse, there might be a chance to backout still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcurley Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 No.I think, if I interpreted you reply correctly that is, that mixing OOC with IC is a bad thing to do. Which is why I was being sarcastic. Oh, Okay. I thought for a minute we were totally serial about this. While IC on Planet Bob I'll be sure to suppress my sarcasm. You and KPCurly have officially won this thread. Congrats. Also hi hyperion, first nation you linked to was mine being raided. Slighty funny, but odd nonetheless. Oh Mai god! I won the internets?! Also, It's nice to see that Athen's has a fully functional reverse gear. After all, this whole action was seemingly against their charter which states that tech raiding should not be conducted on alliances with more than 10 nations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModusOperandi Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Post of the year. I agree and respect your position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomInterrupt Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Post of the year.I agree and respect your position. Their position of "biting off more than you can chew and attacking an allies ally" is hardly a position to respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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