PhysicsJunky Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 And people wonder why I describe Athens as utterly incompetent. Their only mistake was not accounting for the false moralism that would ensue from their devious enemies in the community at large. They had to back out to protect their allies from the bad press, it was the right thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janax Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Their only mistake was not accounting for the false moralism that would ensue from their devious enemies in the community at large. They had to back out to protect their allies from the bad press, it was the right thing to do. No, they backed out because apparently all the talk of "do something about it" was possibly going to result in someone doing exactly that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegendoftheSkies Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 I would have hoped that you could have at least stuck to your convictions instead of caving in like this. I agree. It's sad to see them letting public opinions sway their own affairs. That's really never a good idea since when you do that and make a statement like this, you're trying to validate your own actions and then turn around and say that you'll never do it again. It just doesn't work. You don't save any face that way and you end up looking bad to the people who supported you originally because you backed down. How brave and noble you truly are, defying the repressive masses with your attacks on a vulnerable community, liberating them from the clutches of their chosen monotony and lifestyle. Erm, didn't NSO find itself in a similar spot to Athens once upon a time with you guys trying to recruit members from neutral alliances? And if I remember correctly, Ivan acted similarly to Londo here by apologizing, but then trying to turn around and validate his alliance's actions. Could be wrong, but given what I remember of that event, I would've thought you guys would be a bit more sympathetic to Athens in this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dujek Onearm Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 First you start with the fallacy of there is no difference between an 5-10 men alliance and a 39 men alliance It is not a fallacy. What Londo said is quite true, actually. What defines an alliance its not the size of its membership. These tech raid limits are just some random numbers someone arbitrarily chose and they mean nothing. Either you condemn all forms of tech raid, be it against small or big alliances or you accept it. Accepting raids against alliances with less members than some random number and not accepting it against bigger alliances just doesn't make any sense. Of course bigger alliances have more means to fight back, and probably will have allies to help them, thus the outcome of a raid against a bigger alliance might be bad to the raider. But it is up to him to know the risks of doing such a thing and face its consequences. I'm not saying I'm favorable to tech raids, because I'm not. I'm against it in all forms, I just think its lame when people say "Look, Athens raided an alliance with more than 10 members! They are evil!!!!" while themselves are tech raiders and think what they are doing is all right because they only go against micro alliances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModusOperandi Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Their position of "biting off more than you can chew and attacking an allies ally" is hardly a position to respect. Oh, that part I didn't know; that's what I get for just reading the OP w/o looking at the rest.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhysicsJunky Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 No, they backed out because apparently all the talk of "do something about it" was possibly going to result in someone doing exactly that. I preferred the sarcastic version, but yes, a bit of that too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
commander thrawn Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 I'm not sure how this will turn out. But it could be exciting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londo Mollari Posted November 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Their position of "biting off more than you can chew and attacking an allies ally" is hardly a position to respect. We have not attacked an ally's ally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Uruk Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Their position of "biting off more than you can chew and attacking an allies ally" is hardly a position to respect. They didn't do either of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heft Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Erm, didn't NSO find itself in a similar spot to Athens once upon a time with you guys trying to recruit members from neutral alliances? And if I remember correctly, Ivan acted similarly to Londo here by apologizing, but then trying to turn around and validate his alliance's actions. Could be wrong, but given what I remember of that event, I would've thought you guys would be a bit more sympathetic to Athens in this situation. We were correct, Athens is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jyrinx Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Either you condemn all forms of tech raid, be it against small or big alliances or you accept it. Accepting raids against alliances with less members than some random number and not accepting it against bigger alliances just doesn't make any sense. Of course bigger alliances have more means to fight back, and probably will have allies to help them, thus the outcome of a raid against a bigger alliance might be bad to the raider. But it is up to him to know the risks of doing such a thing and face its consequences. This, so many times over. I criticized Athens and FoB for their actions, but I also criticize tech raiding in general. That said, this was the right thing to do Londo and it couldn't have been easy. I'm dismayed that you still think there was nothing wrong with your actions, but this was your way of apologizing and I understand the realpolitik that you were having to deal with. Take it easy Athens. You have the potential to be a great and powerful alliance, just don't let the power go to your head and remember what it was like when you weren't strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 It is not a fallacy. What Londo said is quite true, actually. What defines an alliance its not the size of its membership. These tech raid limits are just some random numbers someone arbitrarily chose and they mean nothing.Either you condemn all forms of tech raid, be it against small or big alliances or you accept it. Accepting raids against alliances with less members than some random number and not accepting it against bigger alliances just doesn't make any sense. Of course bigger alliances have more means to fight back, and probably will have allies to help them, thus the outcome of a raid against a bigger alliance might be bad to the raider. But it is up to him to know the risks of doing such a thing and face its consequences. I'm not saying I'm favorable to tech raids, because I'm not. I'm against it in all forms, I just think its lame when people say "Look, Athens raided an alliance with more than 10 members! They are evil!!!!" while themselves are tech raiders and think what they are doing is all right because they only go against micro alliances. So for you are no difference raiding a 5/10 men alliance, a 40 men alliance or raiding GPA/TDO/WTF? Just the membership size? As for clarify my opinion about raid let me quote Bob Janova: Let's try again. All tech raiding (i.e. attacking nations with no CB to steal from them) is bad, attacking small alliances (those which are 'not recognised' by the international community) is much worse, attacking a larger alliance is worse still. When trying to rid the world of an abusive practice, you start from the worst excesses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegendoftheSkies Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 We were correct, Athens is not. Then why did Ivan apologize? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 We were correct, Athens is not. No, you really weren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Uruk Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 So for you are no difference raiding a 5/10 men alliance, a 40 men alliance or raiding GPA/TDO/WTF? There's no difference at all. Of course you look at the numbers and try to profit the most, but there's no difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnCapistan Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 One or two raids is okay, but a full on attack on an alliance is not. Good luck to Knights of Ni. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atticus Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Attica supports Athens and the Federation of Buccaneers on their recent conquests against the Knights of Ni! It appears to me that people are starting to open their eyes and see the chains of morality that contain your hearts desire. Be free citizens of Planet Bob, experience the joy and fun you once knew. You cannto run from it, the forces of Morality will meet their end. The status quo wants you to bend to their invisible rules of morality, do not accept it! Meism will live forever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModusOperandi Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 They didn't do either of those. I'm so confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 We have not attacked an ally's ally. 3mil for anyone who can go find the M*A*S*H, Knights of Ni! treaty on a CN forum. Yes, I am completely serious because I've went looking for it and can't find it and I'm tired of people saying it doesn't exist when the Knights of Ni! are saying it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinite Narwhal Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) Yes! Great work Athens! Keep it coming! You know who really is at fault? The Knights o Ni! How dare they be vulnerable to attack and have lots of tech. Only Athens had the grecian balls to stand up to KofN and their arrogant and immoral tech hoarding. Way to show them who's boss. In fact KofN should be thanking Athens for taking technology out of their hands. Having technology is an invitation to be attacked by a much larger alliances made up of arrogant, boorish nations totally unconcerned about the welfare of small alliances. KofN wouldn't want that to happen! Those criticizing Athens are only doing it for political gain. Come on! Athens nations knew they would have to face the consequences of attacking other nations even if it meant ending up with more tech than they had before the war. It's always been an okay practice to attack small vulnerable communities just because you can. There's nothing wrong with that. Why isn't it happening more often? Don't think of it as stealing tech think of it as exporting fun. KofN is having fun right? I'm sure they're celebrating their dropping tech supplies right now. I salute you Athens Edited November 16, 2009 by Infinite Narwhal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jer Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Either you condemn all forms of tech raid, be it against small or big alliances or you accept it. Accepting raids against alliances with less members than some random number and not accepting it against bigger alliances just doesn't make any senseI'm not saying I'm favorable to tech raids, because I'm not. I'm against it in all forms, I just think its lame when people say "Look, Athens raided an alliance with more than 10 members! They are evil!!!!" while themselves are tech raiders and think what they are doing is all right because they only go against micro alliances. You honestly see no difference in raiding 39 people and raiding 5? You do not need to be an expert in mathematics to understand which is the bigger crime and which warrants a bigger response. Obviously, in an ideal world we would fight all raiding and treat the small crimes in the same way as the big ones, but for now I think taking a stand at any attempt to raise the limits of acceptable raiding is a good base point to keep in place when fighting the practice. It is surprising to see someone who is supposedly against raiding in all forms criticise one of the very few standards we have as a community against raiding. - The OP is nothing more than an excessively wordy way of retreating back into your hole with your tail between your legs. You can whine that there have been bigger wrongs committed in the past 'til the cows come home, but it is very clear that the alliances to which you refer at the very least committed their wrongs with a basic level of competence and use of forethought. Your wrongs, however, were ill thought out and clumsily executed and fully deserved the condemnation that they received. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medtech Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 That is all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegendoftheSkies Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) I'm so confused. I think it was RandomInterrupt who was confused. Knights of Ni! have no allies I'm aware of (could be wrong). Unless he was talking about another event entirely, which he could've been. Edited November 14, 2009 by Legend of the Skies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heft Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Then why did Ivan apologize? GPA received an apology for insulting their alliance because insulting their alliance was unnecessary. Now if you really want to sit here and try to equivocate sending messages to nations with sending soldiers to nations then continue, but it is really quite foolish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Uruk Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 One or two raids is okay, but a full on attack on an alliance is not.Good luck to Knights of Ni. B) Seriously how the hell is it different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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