Athens Announcement regarding Ni!

[Tarikmo]

I find this act disgusting. Maybe it'll set a precedent, and some alliance three times Athens' size will raid them. It's not a war, m i rite?

Interestingly, TOP is the only alliance that is 3 times or larger than Athens.

[Great Lord Moth]

Interestingly, TOP is the only alliance that is 3 times or larger than Athens.

Yeah, they came to mind indeed. ;>.>

[AlmightyGrub]

peace sent. I've had my fun.

You presume a rather large amount my friend. Tick Tock

[Chasmic Descent]

Interestingly, TOP is the only alliance that is 3 times or larger than Athens.

I would be interested to hear if Athens is open to TOP techraiding them

[Lord Fingolfin]

See normally when one of Legion members goes off and attacks a member of a sovereign alliance they come to us and request reparations and I go talk to our Ministry of Economics people and get reps sent because our member harmed one of their members without just cause and without a CB. But when Athens and FoB do this on a 39 times larger scale its all good in the hood? Hmmm, so 3 million for each attack, times 39. 117 million in reps courtesy of Athens. I think you should ask for it converted into tech

[Aeternos Astramora]

There is no difference, morally speaking, between attacking a single nation without his consent, and attacking 5 nations, or 10 nations, or 15 nations, or even 39 nations.

No. This is why murdering one person isn't as bad as murdering forty people.

In any of these cases, what you are doing is initiating a combative interaction with another person without his consent. This is generally an accepted behavior on Bob, because without it, the vast majority of wars would have never happened. Since enjoyment of war is quite widespread on this little globe of ours, it is hypocrisy of the highest order to condemn someone for making the first move of aggression in any circumstance, because you are attacking the causes of something you enjoy, most probably to gain some political advantage for yourself.

Because attacking alliances without a CB is very well regarded on Planet Bob. </sarcasm>

In my view, what is fundamentally more important to wars is not the way in which they are begun, but the way in which they are conducted. Most of the grief that has come out of war in this realm has done so because people attempt to utterly crush their opponents, to wipe them out of the world, to prevent them from ever possibly threatening to do the same thing to them. This destroys nations. It destroys the enjoyment of nation rulers and they depart this world, often never to return. Curbstomps are less enjoyable for those who initiate them, as well as for those who are on the receiving end, compared to more even wars.

Tech raiding, when it is properly conducted, is nothing more than an invitation to engage in a reasonably even war. The reason that tech raiding does not normally have the explicit backing of the alliance is to prevent overwhelming advantages of numbers from building up and making any tech raid into a curb stomp or threat of one. Is war itself, of any kind, necessarily wrong? Or is it one of the most meaningful types of interactions we can have in this world, far more so than monotonous exchanges of cash for technology or quests for fixed resource trades? People do not die in this realm, soldiers can be bought back instantly. The only thing that really matters in the end is the enjoyment of the nation ruler, and I feel that reasonably fair contests of skill and strength provide for this admirably.

Yes, a "reasonably even war" is all/part of CnG vs. a 40 person alliance.

I am not happy with the state of things, where war is demonized at all times but pursued to the utter destruction of foes, with white peace even after weeks and weeks of beating being seen as 'merciful'. Is this more civilized than honorable raiding? I do not think it is.

Yes! It it more civilized when the alliance being beaten down was the aggressor who had not valid CB.

It has been brought to my attention that there exists vast and widespread social disapproval of the recent raid made by Athens and Federation of Buccaneers upon Knights of Ni! I feel that much of this disapproval is fundamentally rooted in the desire to gain social or political advantage, but I do accept it as the dominant paradigm. In recognition of this, I can assure all of Planet Bob that Athens will no longer be engaging in tech raids of any kind on nations that occupy an affiliation which is recognized and listed by the world itself. We do not have the strength or the support to gain acceptance for our worldview, which is that limited conflict is good and healthy but striving for the utter destruction of foes is bad and wrong.

We invite the Knights of Ni! to discuss this issue with us government to government if they would seek redress for our actions.

Thank you, and good day.

Very nice.

[LegendoftheSkies]

Maybe it'll set a precedent, and some alliance three times Athens' size will raid them.

Except they'll also have to contend with CnG.

Not to mention some fancy guys in yellow business suits

[Great Lord Moth]

Except they'll also have to contend with CnG.

Not to mention some fancy guys in yellow business suits

That would only serve to portray Athens in an even more "BECAUSE WE CAN" mentality than they already are. Bloc-sanctioned bullying.

[AlmightyGrub]

Except they'll also have to contend with CnG.

Not to mention some fancy guys in yellow business suits

I think you over rate your importance to the argument. If I want to raid Athens, apparently it is fine to do so, by your own, now well published, standards. So what does it have to do with allies?

[LegendoftheSkies]

That would only serve to portray Athens in an even more "BECAUSE WE CAN" mentality than they already are. Bloc-sanctioned bullying.

I don't see MK or others from CnG attacking Knights of Ni!

And I know we certainly aren't.

EDIT: grammar fail

Edited November 15, 2009 by Legend of the Skies

[Great Lord Moth]

I don't see MK or others CnG attacking Knights of Ni!

And I know we certainly aren't.

You're missing my point. If you defend Athens against an alliance-wide tech raid, by Athens' own standards, it would an unsubstantiated act of war with you as the aggressor.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Great Lord Moth

[LegendoftheSkies]

I think you over rate your importance to the argument. If I want to raid Athens, apparently it is fine to do so, by your own, now well published, standards. So what does it have to do with allies?

Try raiding them and maybe you'll see what it has to do with it.

Knights of Ni had no allies and they weren't capable of providing for the security of their members on their own against large aggressors, and so they were prime targets for a large-scale raid/attack/war whatever you want to call it.

Athens, on the other hand, is quite strong and has strong friends. Try raiding them and you'll have quite a bit on your plate. I'm not saying you don't have the right to give it a try, but it's probably not a wise thing to do.

[Kaiser]

Try raiding them and maybe you'll see what it has to do with it.

Knights of Ni had no allies and they weren't capable of providing for the security of their members on their own against large aggressors, and so they were prime targets for a large-scale raid/attack/war whatever you want to call it.

Athens, on the other hand, is quite strong and has strong friends. Try raiding them and you'll have quite a bit on your plate. I'm not saying you don't have the right to give it a try, but it's probably not a wise thing to do.

They have a MDP with MASH

[LegendoftheSkies]

They have a MDP with MASH

EDIT: See Londo's post below.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Legend of the Skies

[Londo Mollari]

They have a MDP with MASH

I have recently learned that this is true, but it was never announced on the OWF and not even known to most of MASH's gov. We will be working with Ni and MASH to resolve this in any case.

[Kaiser]

I have recently learned that this is true, but it was never announced on the OWF and not even known to most of MASH's gov. We will be working with Ni and MASH to resolve this in any case.

Once the enemy can fight back, destroying their nations isn't fun anymore?

[LegendoftheSkies]

Once the enemy can fight back, destroying their nations isn't fun anymore?

There's also the fact that Athens and MASH are allied.

[Proko]

Interestingly, TOP is the only alliance that is 3 times or larger than Athens.

Well, next time Athens gets their tech craving, they'll know where to go. Raiding 220 people is just the same as raiding 1, right?

[Kaiser]

Well, next time Athens gets their tech craving, they'll know where to go. Raiding 220 people is just the same as raiding 1, right?

The mere act of having tech is a CB, and TOP certainly has more tech than anyone else.

[enderland]

Try raiding them and maybe you'll see what it has to do with it.

Knights of Ni had no allies and they weren't capable of providing for the security of their members on their own against large aggressors, and so they were prime targets for a large-scale raid/attack/war whatever you want to call it.

Athens, on the other hand, is quite strong and has strong friends. Try raiding them and you'll have quite a bit on your plate. I'm not saying you don't have the right to give it a try, but it's probably not a wise thing to do.

Ah yes, the classic "do something about it" mentality. Fortunately you are not actually in a position to really make that in the utmost position reversal, now when MK or Athens people start saying it, that circle will be complete yet again.

I have recently learned that this is true, but it was never announced on the OWF and not even known to most of MASH's gov. We will be working with Ni and MASH to resolve this in any case.

This is strangely familiar of a far off event.

The only difference was that the protector in that case was far stronger.

[LegendoftheSkies]

Ah yes, the classic "do something about it" mentality. Fortunately you are not actually in a position to really make that in the utmost position reversal, now when MK or Athens people start saying it, that circle will be complete yet again.

I confess that Corp's MDoAP with them may not be much of a deterrent, but although I'm not MK, if someone were to raid Athens, judging from what I've seen from them I predict that MK would indeed "do something about it."

Edited November 15, 2009 by Legend of the Skies

[enderland]

I confess that Corp's MDoAP with them may not be much of a deterrent, but although I'm not MK, if someone were to raid Athens, judging from what I've seen from them I predict that MK would indeed "do something about it."

It is not as ironic for you to say "Do something about it" in response to unwarranted aggression, because as far as I know, Corp was never involved in the large scale Karma actions in the manner in which Athens and MK were.

[The Big Bad]

I have recently learned that this is true, but it was never announced on the OWF and not even known to most of MASH's gov. We will be working with Ni and MASH to resolve this in any case.

And this is just how pathetic Athens is. Oh boo fricking hoo we did not know they had a treaty. How many alliances that size outside of GPA, TDO and GC do not have them? It would be an act of complete ignorance to think that they did not. This not a week old 5 nation alliance, about the only type that may not have some sort of treaty. Athens has to have one of the least competent governments on Planet Bob.

[Sunstar]

Just wanted to say:

It is really familiar though.

Excellent comparison. Somehow I don't see this escalating to quite that level though. If it does, you called it for sure.

[Starfox101]

I'm starting to wonder if the Vox/Karma movements were a mistake. Now, the NPO certainly needed to be knocked down, that is no regret, but all this "war is immoral" stuff is really ridiculous. Will there ever be another war in this world? Or will any possible antagonist shout them down before they can ever do anything?

Really, peace is terribly boring. War without harsh terms, or short term wars, are not bad for the world. An example of this is NSO vs. RAD. It was short, and RAD came out fine.

So what is it we have to live with? Eternal peace, or letting people beat up smaller alliances?

I for one, have no idea which side to take.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Starfox101