Athens Announcement regarding Ni!

[Bob Janova]

It's still crap, even if crap dressed up in nice words. It's good that you won't do it again, even if just because of international pressure and not because you see the clear wrongness of the action, but you should pay full reparations for this attack also. You are no better hiding behind the shield of C&G and bullying small alliances than Valhalla were to hide behind the shield of Continuum to attack Hyperion.

It is honourable for MK and C&G to protect you from this, although it would give me great pleasure to see consequences brought to you for it, and a disgrace for you to be forcing them to do so.

[Fireandthepassion]

Sup Planet Bob,

We Viridians heard that war is fun and all, but we decided that attacking defenseless nations isn't so much fun. So, we decided to attack each other, because nothing says camaraderie like attacking your comrades.

Alliances of Bob, I hope that you too decide to tech raid your own alliance nations, because it's fun, and all.

Polaris is planning on declaring on Polaris at update.

Please Polaris don't betray Polaris!

[SirWilliam]

Wow. I've only got a few minutes, so I'll try to be brief, but uh...wow.

Now I'll admit, I haven't read that other monstrosity of a thread yet (60ish pages, now?), but I'll assume that it's pretty much of the same flavor as this one. I just want to make a few things clear, as a leader of a Complaints and Grievances Union alliance not named Federation of Buccaneers or Athens.

The first is that the Mushroom Kingdom does not support this action. Personally I dislike tech raiding, and while I do allow my alliance to practice it under great restraint, I cannot possibly dream of condoning this. I can come up with a lot of adjectives to describe it, and none would be friendly, but quite frankly it would be rude of me and not my place to elaborate on this piece any further.

The second is that the Mushroom Kingdom does support her allies, even when they make mistakes. While Londo must indeed now lead his alliance out of this mess, and I'm confident that he will, he will enjoy the full support of the Mushroom Kingdom. So all you folks talking about the death of Athens, or forcing Athens to do x, y, or z? You'll have to go through us first. I'm told we have a couple of nukes sitting around.

The third is that you lot are positively ridiculous. This tech raid is not an alliance war. It's not a curbstomp. Ni isn't disbanding, they aren't playing exorbitant reparations. There has not been character assassination, nor has there even been the full force of either alliance involved being used. To liken this to the actions of the Hegemony (LOL Woodstock Massacre) is laughable at best, and downright ignorant at worst. Yes, we get it - you smell blood and you want to emo out all over the forums, wasting as much of our time as possible decrying those who bested you or have wronged you as evil evil men. Been there, done that. But um...try to keep a grip on reality?

Again, I don't necessarily support what Athens or FoB has done. I don't think it's even close to the crimes of the Hegemony, but it's not exactly a great sign of things to come either. That being said, I have every confidence in the ability of these two alliances to right their ships. Oddly enough, it is not the responsibility of the former Karma alliances alone to "lead Bob into a new era." They led us all out of a dark age, and that was where their job ended. It is the responsibility of all alliances to pick it up from there, including those who once perpetrated the great misdeeds of the past.

Blah, I'm out of time, and this thing is a mile long anyway. I'll check back in a few hours when I have time, but if I don't respond before then it's not a slight against you - it's me not being able to.

Archon

King of the Mushroom Kingdom

It... It brings a tear to my eye.

[Shinpah]

I'm getting the feeling that not all of the attacking nations knew that.

I can't really explain what octavius was thinking when he wrote that; but really, there weren't any orders to attack. Octavius entered the channel, and shortly after Choader invited him to the raid. I was actually hesitant to jump into this as well, but ultimately I was convinced in the end too.

[mdnss69]

Way to self-pwn oneselves Athens and FoB. Heroes the lot of you

[astronaut jones]

Wow. I've only got a few minutes, so I'll try to be brief, but uh...wow.

Now I'll admit, I haven't read that other monstrosity of a thread yet (60ish pages, now?), but I'll assume that it's pretty much of the same flavor as this one. I just want to make a few things clear, as a leader of a Complaints and Grievances Union alliance not named Federation of Buccaneers or Athens.

The first is that the Mushroom Kingdom does not support this action. Personally I dislike tech raiding, and while I do allow my alliance to practice it under great restraint, I cannot possibly dream of condoning this. I can come up with a lot of adjectives to describe it, and none would be friendly, but quite frankly it would be rude of me and not my place to elaborate on this piece any further.

The second is that the Mushroom Kingdom does support her allies, even when they make mistakes. While Londo must indeed now lead his alliance out of this mess, and I'm confident that he will, he will enjoy the full support of the Mushroom Kingdom. So all you folks talking about the death of Athens, or forcing Athens to do x, y, or z? You'll have to go through us first. I'm told we have a couple of nukes sitting around.

The third is that you lot are positively ridiculous. This tech raid is not an alliance war. It's not a curbstomp. Ni isn't disbanding, they aren't playing exorbitant reparations. There has not been character assassination, nor has there even been the full force of either alliance involved being used. To liken this to the actions of the Hegemony (LOL Woodstock Massacre) is laughable at best, and downright ignorant at worst. Yes, we get it - you smell blood and you want to emo out all over the forums, wasting as much of our time as possible decrying those who bested you or have wronged you as evil evil men. Been there, done that. But um...try to keep a grip on reality?

Again, I don't necessarily support what Athens or FoB has done. I don't think it's even close to the crimes of the Hegemony, but it's not exactly a great sign of things to come either. That being said, I have every confidence in the ability of these two alliances to right their ships. Oddly enough, it is not the responsibility of the former Karma alliances alone to "lead Bob into a new era." They led us all out of a dark age, and that was where their job ended. It is the responsibility of all alliances to pick it up from there, including those who once perpetrated the great misdeeds of the past.

Blah, I'm out of time, and this thing is a mile long anyway. I'll check back in a few hours when I have time, but if I don't respond before then it's not a slight against you - it's me not being able to.

Archon

King of the Mushroom Kingdom

It's too bad that you're being highly selective in your support for tech raids gone bad. I'm certain that you and everyone else in MK will from here on out show your support for other alliances that find themselves in a similar situation due to their tech raids going bad in the same manner. I look forward to it, actually.

[Taget]

If you attack one member it's a raid. If you try attacking all members that's clearly a war. Nonetheless most wars are curbstomps and often in the end nothing but tech raids writ large. Hence there is something refreshing about the lack of pretense about an honest straight forward declaration that one simply wants technology and land.

[Choader]

This must have been ordered attacks for them to be so numerous.

That's quite an assumption. It couldn't possibly be that both of our fair alliances contain a significant amount of members why enjoy raiding and are usually down it.

No, you're right. We had to force all of them into raiding KofN to satisfy our bloodlust.

[enderland]

That's quite an assumption. It couldn't possibly be that both of our fair alliances contain a significant amount of members why enjoy raiding and are usually down it.

No, you're right. We had to force all of them into raiding KofN to satisfy our bloodlust.

Just those that indicated "alliance war" or "orders" in their declarations?

[Choader]

Just those that indicated "alliance war" or "orders" in their declarations?

As I've said elsewhere, how about investigating for yourself? I do understand though that it's easier to parrot that orders were sent out and this raid was in violation of our respective charters.

[deSouza]

As I've said elsewhere, how about investigating for yourself? I do understand though that it's easier to parrot that orders were sent out and this raid was in violation of our respective charters.

Pirates should like parrots.

In this case, you deserve it, because you did something wrong and you seem to fail to grasp it.

[Shinpah]

Pirates should like parrots.

In this case, you deserve it, because you did something wrong and you seem to fail to grasp it.

I think we understand quite clearly that there is some kind of moral outrage against us, and I wouldn't say that we're so blunt as to continue repeating this action, if only to prevent these annoyances.

However, I reject your moral imperialism

[Choader]

Pirates should like parrots.

In this case, you deserve it, because you did something wrong and you seem to fail to grasp it.

Being wrong in your eyes is not the same as being wrong.

Try again.

[President Obama]

I think we understand quite clearly that there is some kind of moral outrage against us, and I wouldn't say that we're so blunt as to continue repeating this action, if only to prevent these annoyances.

However, I reject your moral imperialism

If you think you did nothing wrong why not stand up for what you believe in and not be bullied by public opinion?

[Heft]

I think we understand quite clearly that there is some kind of moral outrage against us, and I wouldn't say that we're so blunt as to continue repeating this action, if only to prevent these annoyances.

However, I reject your moral imperialism

And substitute it for your own material imperialism?

[deSouza]

I think we understand quite clearly that there is some kind of moral outrage against us, and I wouldn't say that we're so blunt as to continue repeating this action, if only to prevent these annoyances.

However, I reject your moral imperialism

You in that case was specifically choader, because i'm pretty sure (given past behavior) that he had a lot of influence concerning the deed and doesn't particularly sees himself in the wrong.

His post above corroborates my statement.

[Kaiser]

If you think you did nothing wrong why not stand up for what you believe in and not be bullied by public opinion?

I've already asked this pages ago. It's not because they are infra huggers, oh no. It's because they value their allies infra more than their convictions!

[Choader]

If you think you did nothing wrong why not stand up for what you believe in and not be bullied by public opinion?

Examples of being bullied by opinions?

[Kaiser]

Examples of being bullied by opinions?

See: The OP

[Fallen Fool]

The third is that you lot are positively ridiculous. This tech raid is not an alliance war. It's not a curbstomp. Ni isn't disbanding, they aren't playing exorbitant reparations. There has not been character assassination, nor has there even been the full force of either alliance involved being used. To liken this to the actions of the Hegemony (LOL Woodstock Massacre) is laughable at best, and downright ignorant at worst. Yes, we get it - you smell blood and you want to emo out all over the forums, wasting as much of our time as possible decrying those who bested you or have wronged you as evil evil men. Been there, done that. But um...try to keep a grip on reality?

It is really familiar though. Edited November 14, 2009 by Fallen_Fool

[Shinpah]

If you think you did nothing wrong why not stand up for what you believe in and not be bullied by public opinion?

Why would we who seek profit from tech raiding undertake actions which would cause us to lose our profits

tl;dr : mah bits :S

You in that case was specifically choader, because i'm pretty sure (given past behavior) that he had a lot of influence concerning the deed and doesn't particularly sees himself in the wrong.

His post above corroborates my statement.

As does my bit about rejecting moral imperialism, aka your standards of right and wrong

I've already asked this pages ago. It's not because they are infra huggers, oh no. It's because they value their allies infra more than their convictions!

Hello, my name is Shinpah, and for a little over 2 years I've been an infra hugger

[Starfox101]

I'll begin my wait for the new Vox Populi to begin fighting Karma.

I think this is pretty epic.

[Caesar833]

Athens making mistakes? And everyone seems shocked? Didnt surprise me londo

[Choader]

See: The OP

Athens are our brothers and I trust their decisions are for the best, I think you'll notice the OP is an Athenian policy statement though.

It's unlikely that you'll see the Federation raiding on quite this scale anytime soon, but we have never and will not set arbitrary limits on our members.

Edited November 14, 2009 by Choader

[Great Lord Moth]

I find this act disgusting. Maybe it'll set a precedent, and some alliance three times Athens' size will raid them. It's not a war, m i rite?

This is worse than the \m/ Lottery. I hope Ni is demanding reparations for each attack. That's what alliances do when alliances attack other alliances outside of war, right? I believe Londo said that there's no difference between a mass raid and an individual raid, so he should be expecting it.

There is no difference, morally speaking, between attacking a single nation without his consent, and attacking 5 nations, or 10 nations, or 15 nations, or even 39 nations. In any of these cases, what you are doing is initiating a combative interaction with another person without his consent.

Yep.

The only thing that really matters in the end is the enjoyment of the nation ruler, and I feel that reasonably fair contests of skill and strength provide for this admirably.

This is why it is a necessarily unequal exchange. Correlation is not causation. Unless both parties seek it, you cannot assume that both parties will enjoy it, just because there is a major trend that people enjoy war. It is the height of arrogance to think that because most people enjoy war, even if the Knights of Ni do as well, that you can commit an act like this under the premise that "Well, they probably enjoy combat" and be morally justified. In fact, by demonstrating their own enjoyment for war, Athens has sent an implicit invitation for other alliances to raid them.