Under-rated/Over-rated alliances

[Il Principe]

Under-rated: FoK, they're a much more elite alliance then they generally get credit for.

Over-rated: Sparta and MHA, are far higher in the rankings than how powerful they really are. Both under-performed in the Karma war, and have never had tough war to trim the fat.

Overrated: Gremlins, TOP, MHA, Sparta. The first two are stat huggers who only really stand for the side that will let them protect their stats, the second two have a bark far worse than their bite.

We do have a lot more members as we do have 'strong' and active members. That said, I think our top tier nations are a lot better as our 200 small nations and could fight off most alliances (all but TOP, NpO, MK, IRON and Gremlins).

@ Duncan King, I do not think we bark that much so I think our bark and bite match each other pretty much.

[The Big Bad]

I'm sure your intelligent enough to know that your above statement is obviously a very poor cop-out, effectively proving my point, and everyone who reads it will take it as such.

Understand, it was not my direct intention to publicly embarrass you with this line of questioning, but rather an unavoidable side effect of the statement you yourself originally made. I admit, I did know (as did anyone else who is active on these forums) that there was no way for you to prove what you had said, as proof of it does not exist, but in good form gave you the opportunity to do so or come clean with your real reasoning anyway. In no way was that said statement intended as a compliment, and my request and argument was very simple (all it amounted to was "prove it or its untrue", however I understand if my terminology is confusing but I did say it clearly enough quite a few times).

Having a factual basis behind the assertions one makes is a universal concept; and in the future, to your own benefit, I hope you will remember how this conversation went and make your claims accordingly.

Also, I forgot to mention, I think GATO is pretty underrated.

Well I could just tell you jump a thread or two over and read what a certain emperor thinks of you but that would be to easy or pop in to various threads I have read on OWF since I have returned. I am not going to hold your hand an lead you around nor waste my time linking you to things you have not read. Nor will I log dump on anyone. You either see it or you don't. If you do, you do something to change things if you even care what people think of you. If you don't then you really have nothing to worry about. Again, from the nerve I have struck it is very clear you know what may people think of VE.

[Dujek Onearm]

I think Arsenal is gonna fix you up. It just takes time is all.

Arsenal is overrated

Ops, wrong thread.

Now, really.

I would say that alliances like GATO, Legion and even GGA to an extent tend to be underrated. All those alliances did something to earn a reputation of being a bad alliance in the past (deserved or not) and live with it until today. But all those alliances went through the hell and back and had the will to endure everything. And that on itself is a great deed given the circumstances, regardless of anything else you might have to say about other aspects of these alliances.

[Il Impero Romano]

Well I could just tell you jump a thread or two over and read what a certain emperor thinks of you but that would be to easy or pop in to various threads I have read on OWF since I have returned. I am not going to hold your hand an lead you around nor waste my time linking you to things you have not read. Nor will I log dump on anyone. You either see it or you don't. If you do, you do something to change things if you even care what people think of you. If you don't then you really have nothing to worry about. Again, from the nerve I have struck it is very clear you know what may people think of VE.

Read the final responses on the matter, or perhaps speak with him about it. In fact, as my post was the one that ended the matter in that thread and you above claim that I have not seen the thread, your statement here just goes to show you have in fact not read it, and once again are attempting to misrepresent a situation without giving it full consideration (I also doubt anyone in this community would be happy about you throwing their name around as an example without fully looking into the situation that your referring to, but that's just an admitted presumption on my part). Furthermore, the matter at dispute in that thread is one which is very complex, and is sufficiently specific as to not qualify within the bounds of the communal perception that your original reasoning resides upon.

Either way, that clearly does not constitute proof of your reasoning, you must know that. You made the claim that there has been a "string of failures at all levels" and that we are "publicly insulted at every turn", therefore you must show those things to render your claim true. I have explained it over and over, and its impossible to think by this point you still do not understand the burden of proof is on you to provide the multiple instances in the "string" and the multiple examples of us being "publicly insulted".

You cannot do that, therefore your reasoning is untrue. Nothing you can do will change that. This is an argument that you are literally incapable of winning, not due to the manner in which you debate it, but simply because of the fact that no amount of discovery will be able to uncover evidence that supports your claim.

Also, on the matter of "striking a nerve", its quite the opposite actually. I know your claims to be untrue, as proven, therefore it is my duty to point this out, and in accordance with the OP this is the proper venue to do so. You have a history of making unfounded conclusory statements about my alliance, and you can expect me to disprove them every time.

Risking repetition, I believe you should reread my previous post (at least the last one, if not all of them in this thread) and I feel you should truly consider its meaning, not for anything but your own benefit.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Il Impero Romano

[Timberland]

Wuss.

Also, leave it to TOP to even stat out their damages.

STAT COLLECTOR

catch me on irc i'll tell you what we do as an alliance

[Uralica]

What people need to realize is that overrated does not equate to bad, and underrated does not equate to good. There are amazing alliances who are overrated and terrible ones that are underrated. It's just a matter of where you think they stand compared to the general perception of them.

Precisely.

There are cases bad and overrated may go together, but I don't see any in the top 40 of CN, perhaps even top 80. Good and underrated is more frequent (actually there are many more of these) but it is also not always the case. You could be horrible yet not AS horrible as some people seem to think. Can't think of any specific unbiased examples off the top of my head though.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Uralica

[Texas Longhorn]

Anyone who thinks The Grämlins are overated seriously needs to have a word with themselves, Fighting IRON's upper tier was no easy task not for any alliance, they did it and with immense effectiveness and great efficiency, their numbers may have dwindled but they would still pack a massive punch into anyone wishing to test that theory.

Also i dont think MK make the overrated category either, they are one of the better alliances out there full of some great players.

[The Big Bad]

Read his last response on the matter, or perhaps speak with him about it. In fact, as my post was the one that ended the matter in that thread and you above claim that I have not seen the thread, your statement here just goes to show you have in fact not read it, and once again are attempting to misrepresent a situation without giving it full consideration (I also doubt anyone in this community would be happy about you throwing their name around as an example without fully looking into the situation that your referring to, but that's just an admitted presumption on my part). Furthermore, that matter at dispute in that thread is one which is very complex, and is sufficiently specific as to not qualify within the bounds of the communal perception that your original reasoning resides upon.

Either way, that clearly does not constitute proof of your reasoning, you must know that. You made the claim that there has been "string of failures at all levels" and that we are "publicly insulted at every turn", therefore you must show those things to render your claim true. I have explained it over and over, and its impossible to think by this point you still do not understand the burden of proof is on you to provide the multiple instances of the "string" and the multiple examples of us being "publicly insulted".

You cannot do that, therefore your reasoning is untrue. Nothing you can do will change that. This is an argument that you are literally incapable of winning, not due to the manner in which you debate it, but simply because of the fact that no amount of discovery will be able to uncover evidence that supports your claim.

Risking repetition, I believe you should reread my previous post (at least the last one, if not all of them in this thread) and I feel you should truly consider its meaning, not for anything but your own benefit.

You seem to think you can e-lawer your way through this by claiming I need to post links. Then you will say, why thats not everyone or even a majority of people in CN. I know this game. Its a way to make yourself feel better and say "see I showed him, he can not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that lots of people think we suck". Its a good thing to do for your members I guess. Although considering this all started off as compliment to VE, you might have just ran with that.

Now you have proven to me that VE is not underrated and that in fact they are rated just right by many. Congrats.

[Kzoppistan]

I think if you look at the alliance listings, you'll see everyone rated exactly as they are.

[karthikking]

Then Sparta must be quite over rated.

[Yankees Empire]

Underrated:

TOOL-I didn't expect TOOL to get so much flak. I've been allied with them for about a year and 3 months, and they've been awesome.

ODN-Great guys. I remember in FnKa, we discussed people who we'd consider allying with, and the conversationg changed to alliances we'd never treaty with, and one was ODN. We'd all heard the jokes, "lol optional defense network," and such. Then after we moved to Orange and especially after we merged, we got to know their members and gov, and they were awesome. Arsenal is a great leader, and their members are

The Resistance-We're cool peepz.

Overrated: Athens, Vanguard, GOD.

Not necessarily bad alliances, I just think they're overrated.

[Uralica]

I think if you look at the alliance listings, you'll see everyone rated exactly as they are.

Statistics tend to overlook the intangibles. You could have a small alliance that has really good FA and leadership.

[SiCkO]

Arsenal is overrated

Ops, wrong thread.

Now, really.

I would say that alliances like GATO, Legion and even GGA to an extent tend to be underrated. All those alliances did something to earn a reputation of being a bad alliance in the past (deserved or not) and live with it until today. But all those alliances went through the hell and back and had the will to endure everything. And that on itself is a great deed given the circumstances, regardless of anything else you might have to say about other aspects of these alliances.

thanks!

ODN

[Asa Phillips]

Underrated: AOD Brigade, CCC, GATO, TTK, Avalon

Overrated: WTF, SLCB

Don't think TOOL is either tbh. We're content to not be right in the forefront of alliance politics.

We're RATED at all? Let alone over? what goes on in those forums of yours over at TOOL?

[Uralica]

That's not exactly an opinion held by all of TOOL, Mr. Phillips.

And what goes on over at our forums? Well, the usual stuff. Spam, chatting with diplos, and a bunch of stuff that is known only to TOOL.

[Yankees Empire]

We're RATED at all? Let alone over? what goes on in those forums of yours over at TOOL?

Horrible things. Unspeakable things.

[Il Impero Romano]

You seem to think you can e-lawer your way through this by claiming I need to post links. Then you will say, why thats not everyone or even a majority of people in CN. I know this game. Its a way to make yourself feel better and say "see I showed him, he can not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that lots of people think we suck". Its a good thing to do for your members I guess. Although considering this all started off as compliment to VE, you might have just ran with that.

Now you have proven to me that VE is not underrated and that in fact they are rated just right by many. Congrats.

What you just stated amounts to "You have proven my statement wrong, and my statement cannot be proven true, yet I will continue to say it is true anyway"

Until now I honestly thought you understood the debate we have been having, yet were refusing to abdicate out of sheer pride despite the fact that you have been proven incorrect many times over. However, although it seems you still do not grasp the matter, no matter how simple it may be, I will attempt to illustrate it yet again. You clearly do not "know this game"; as if you did you would know that first and foremost, it is no game, second, it is not "e-lawyering" (which is a term that is used completely improperly), and third, you would never have made the statement to begin with.

The crux of the issue is you attempted to say that your opinion was based on facts, and effectively superimposed them onto your opinion in later statements. The "facts" that you asserted your opinion is based on are as follows: 1) we are "publicly insulted at every turn" and 2) there has been "string of failures at all levels". These statements must actually be fact for you to say they are the basis of your opinion. The burden of proof is on you to produce what can be reasonably considered as examples of us being "publicly insulted at every turn" as well as examples of the "string of failures at all levels". You cannot produce such proof, as you readily admit it does not exist. Therefore, your statement is untrue.

Juxtapose this with a group such as GGA* or, to a lesser extent, ODN*. With both of those, a simple search would be able to provide you with examples of both of the facts critical to your argument as applied to VE. With Viridia however, this is summarily not so.

You errored in attempting to cite facts which do not exist. You would have been much better off blatantly stating that you do not like VE, and you feel others do not as well, or perhaps playing off one of our faults that has a factual basis in reality. No one can argue that your opinion is untrue, but I will not let you sit here and attempt to create facts out of thin air simply because you think you have some sort of special privilege.

Once again, as I have said and definitively proved over and over, there is no possible way for you to support your claim. Obviously, the more you try, the worse you make yourself look. I hold for you no malcontent nor do I particularly care what your opinion of my alliance is, however I continually will not let you say that something is fact when it clearly is not.

*Note: I mean absolutely no offense to GGA or ODN in the example above. In fact, I can say in earnest that they are underrated as they stand today (and not wrap it in a veiled insult like some others). Both alliances have made great strides in improvement as of late, yet many still view them under the guise of their elder incarnations, which in my book is the definition of underrated.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Il Impero Romano

[The Big Bad]

What you just stated amounts to "You have proven my statement wrong, and my statement cannot be proven true, yet I will continue to say it is true anyway"

Until now I honestly thought you understood the debate we have been having, yet were refusing to abdicate out of sheer pride despite the fact that you have been proven incorrect many times over. However, although it seems you still do not grasp the matter, no matter how simple it may be, I will attempt to illustrate it yet again. You clearly do not "know this game"; as if you did you would know that first and foremost, it is no game, second, it is not "e-lawyering" (which is a term that is used completely improperly), and third, you would never have made the statement to begin with.

The crux of the issue is you attempted to say that your opinion was based on facts, and effectively superimposed them onto your opinion in later statements. The "facts" that you asserted that your opinion is based on are as follows: 1) we are "publicly insulted at every turn" and 2) there has been "string of failures at all levels". These statements must actually be fact for you to say they are the basis of your opinion. The burden of proof is on you to produce what can be reasonably considered as examples of us being "publicly insulted at every turn" as well as examples of the "string of failures at all levels". You cannot produce such proof, as you readily admit it does not exist. Therefore, your statement is untrue.

Juxtapose this with a groups such as GGA* or, to a lesser extent, ODN*. With both of those, a simple search would be able to provide you with examples of both of the facts critical to your argument as applied to VE. With Viridia however, this is summarily not so.

You errored in attempting to cite facts which do not exist. You would have been much better off blatantly stating that you do not like VE, and you feel others do not as well, or perhaps playing off one of our faults that has a factual basis in reality. No one can argue that your opinion is untrue, but I will not let you sit here and attempt to create facts out of thin air simply because you think you are "The Bad" (as you say).

Once again, as I have said and definitively proved over and over, there is no possible way for you to support your claim. Obviously, the more you try, the worse you make yourself look. I hold for you no malcontent nor do I particularly care what your opinion of my alliance is, however I continually will not let you say that something is fact when it clearly is not.

*Note: I mean absolutely no offense to GGA or ODN in the example above. In fact, I can say in earnest that they are underrated as they stand today (and not wrap it in a veiled insult like some others). Both alliances have made great strides in improvement as of late, yet many still view them under the guise of their elder incarnations, which in my book is the definition of underrated.

We are not having a debate. That would require me to care. When I came back to CN certain alliances were mentioned over and over as not so good. VE was one of those alliances. This is from a pretty wide spectrum of Planet Bob as I was open to anything pretty much. Now can I prove those people are telling me the truth? No. But, I think they were being honest. I am sorry if it upsets you. You can cry and e-lawyer all you want but that does not change anything. Although after watching you blather on here I guess I have an idea why people think the way they do.

[TypoNinja]

We are not having a debate. That would require me to care. When I came back to CN certain alliances were mentioned over and over as not so good. VE was one of those alliances. This is from a pretty wide spectrum of Planet Bob as I was open to anything pretty much. Now can I prove those people are telling me the truth? No. But, I think they were being honest. I am sorry if it upsets you. You can cry and e-lawyer all you want but that does not change anything. Although after watching you blather on here I guess I have an idea why people think the way they do.

For someone who doesn't care you sure are making a lot of petulant posts.

When I don't care, I actually don't post. Radical Idea I know.

[WildThing]

You're bluffing and it's obvious TBB.

[Mixoux]

Overrated: Athens, Vanguard, GOD.

Not necessarily bad alliances, I just think they're overrated.

Could give you that on Athens to some extent (simply because their AA is thrown in almost every topic regarding Karma regardless of relevancy), but the only time I ever see GOD/Vanguard mentioned by players is when PR drama arises on these forums.

[Il Impero Romano]

We are not having a debate. That would require me to care. When I came back to CN certain alliances were mentioned over and over as not so good. VE was one of those alliances. This is from a pretty wide spectrum of Planet Bob as I was open to anything pretty much. Now can I prove those people are telling me the truth? No. But, I think they were being honest. I am sorry if it upsets you. You can cry and e-lawyer all you want but that does not change anything. Although after watching you blather on here I guess I have an idea why people think the way they do.

Once again, you demonstrate a complete inability to address anything in my post, nor produce anything to the contrary. Here it seems you are eluding that you cannot give proof of your claim because the proof was given to you in private.

This fails to meet any logical standard of proof in three ways:

-First, it could only possibly encompass the claim that we are "...insulted at every turn", as any "string of failures at all levels" would be readily available via posts, threads, or data (and you cannot produce any of those as there was no string of failures, at any level).

-Second, what you said was we are "publicly insulted at every turn", and one cannot be publicly insulted in private.

-Third, excuse me if myself and any number of people who are reading this are inclined to believe your blatantly lieing when you say that people came to you out of the blue and said wholly unprovable things as opposed to the possibility that you are attempting slander based of off your clear and provable attitude to VE.

No one is crying or upset here, except maybe yourself, and seeing you accuse anyone else of "blathering" is quite ironic, but that's neither here nor there. You were called out on a lie and proved wrong when you attempted to defend it, let it go.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Il Impero Romano

[USMC123]

In my personal opiniioon, the 3 best alliances out there other than mine are VE, RoK, and MK.

I'm also a bit drunk.

:awesomee:

[Yankees Empire]

Could give you that on Athens to some extent (simply because their AA is thrown in almost every topic regarding Karma regardless of relevancy), but the only time I ever see GOD/Vanguard mentioned by players is when PR drama arises on these forums.

I honestly couldn't tell you why I chose GOD and Vanguard. I thought of them and considered them overrated. But in my mind, overrated=/=bad.

[Gofastleft]

Overrated:

ODN, based on all the underrated votes, I think the jury is still out with them.

Insert obligatory NSO reference

Underrated:

GOD, Mix is right, the only time you hear about GOD is in reference to Xiph and drama, there is much much more to them

R&R, they keep to themselves and allies, allies like SF and LEO so they often get overlooked, that is a mistake.