Overrated Alliance Government

[KaitlinK]

Van Hoo

KaitLinK

/thread

Me??? Aww I am flattered... /end sarcasm

I believe this thread was started in hopes to have an actual (and respectful) discussion on who is overrated in the game and not to simply list people we don't like. It seems that by just spitting out a couple of names of leaders you have a personal grudge against without explaining why you feel that way (again, respectfully), you've obviously missed the point of this thread. The problem with threads like these is that you already know who is going to choose whom. MK members will frequently choose Hoo, anti-hedgemony types will frequently choose Dilber or others who represented that era, maroon will frequently pick Kaiser Martens, and the list goes on. Being objective isn't typical for the OWF.

Having said that, I find Ivan Moldavi to be overrated. Nothing personal againt him, I just was not active on the OWF during his hayday and only know what I have seen since the NSO was formed. I'm sure he is a great leader, but like many leaders who achieve a cult following (Dilber, Hoo, Archon, Electron Sponge, etc), the level of worship is a little unmerited and goes a little too far. I reserve the right to change my mind if I see more or get to know him at all.

Edited October 5, 2009 by KaitlinK

[RandomInterrupt]

I don't know about his ability to choose Imperial Officers (or the War Council, in those days) but from what I've heard he's pretty good at the rest of the whole leader jazz too.

The War Council was elected. What do they teach you these days in Pacifica? I guess you don't need to know history to hail...

He was good enought to get Polaris rolled and Grub wasn't good enough to stop him.

I rest my case.

Polaris is alive and well. Why? Because of Grub. I don't see how he could be overrated. Most alliances when faced with a tenth of the opposition Polar was disband and fail. Folks like GOONS and \m/. Yet Polaris, under Grub's leadership and planning, survived and prospered.

To contribute, I think many of the overrated leaders are those who are in power based on their cult of personality. Sometimes cults follow real capable leaders and sometimes they prop up bad ones.

I think some of the worst offenders have already been mentioned. The NPO is full of them. Foreign Affairs "geniuses" who are actually terrible like Dilber and Philo. They may have each had one of two successes, but they each made many more blunders afterwards. And each other department after that is/was headed by someone who was there because they had a reputation for being good at something. No skills need be present. Moo as a top leader... the guy was completely dependent on support staff and entirely incapable of making a decision on his own. Which is basically the Emperor's job description. Mary the Regent... As a leader I admire her skill in forum administration.

And then we've got the major democratic alliances. Every democratic race is a popularity contest. It's just simple fact. So its natural that in the democratic alliances you will have some folks elected on merit and some on sheer reputation. For every skilled leader elected you'll find a Crymson basically. Someone who has a reputation to back them up and prevent them from being accountable to any real merit or accomplishments.

Also as mentioned you've got basically the entire TSO government. People like SAM who survived in the MCXA for no apparent reason. People whose lists of achievements basically come down to allowing themselves to be used by foreign parties to an end they liked. That isn't leadership.

Anyway, I could go on all day. But that's the major ones and other folks will cover the rest.

[Wargarden]

Nopone in particular, but I see two types as the worst leadership;

those that do little or nothing pro-active and only respond to stimuli.

And those that step in 'it' constantly, whether verbally or as a style of character.

[WalkerNinja]

@Schatt and Coursca

I very much agree. Schatt, I'm humbled that I've managed to change a mind as opinionated and articulate as yours.

The ODN was a wonderful experiment for me. I went there on accident ( I was supposed to have joined FAN ), and found that most people really liked my ideas. It's not an easy thing getting into government a month after you join the game (much less the alliance).

I've had my foibles and fumbles, not the least of which was arrogance, but I absolutely tried to turn my dismal failure into a learning experience. I took a lot of time to think over my past actions.

I don't think that I'll ever be one of the greats, but that doesn't matter to me like it used to. I just want to do a serviceable job for my alliance. Since teachers have summers off, I hope that I'll be getting another opportunity in a few months.

-------------------------

It's cliche, but behind every great man stands a greater staff. It is what makes or breaks a leader. In that sense, I don't think that Moldavi is overrated. His ideas and persona have always inspired his alliances to perform higher for him than they would for anyone else.

That's a rare gift.

[King Srqt]

I find it hard to say that anyone is overrated without having personally worked with them so I will refrain from naming anyone. I will however join in on saying that anyone who thinks Grub is overrated is out of their mind.

He has proven himself to be one of the premier leaders in this game after holding an alliance together through and after a massively devastating war and leading them back up to their former glory in next to no time after enormous reparation payments.

all you need to do is look at Polar's dedication to both the alliance and its emperor to know that Grub is far from overrated.

[Leet Guy]

Margrave was a bit over-rated while he was in government, although to be fair he had way too much on his plate because he was in the Marines. Come to think of it, every overrated government member that I can think of seems to have gone inactive because of RL commitments.

Well that's an issue though. A good leader would step aside when RL commitments cause CN to be too much too handle. Holding onto power when you don't actually have time to do anything anymore just hurts the alliance as a whole. See: NPO IO's.

[Some-Guy]

I was never over-rated, I simply met expectations by being a disappointment.

[The AUT]

In a different category though, who certainly don't deserve to reach the top line like those dudes, because of complete incompetence as well as overratedness.

TheAUT. banned member. Tela.

I might edit this post later to add more people as I remember them.

I've never really been liked and never been given a minister position in any alliance outside of leadership positions in alliances which I've created from literally just myself. In fact, Carthage literally just started from just me. I haven't inherited anything due to a lack of trust and the risk of having a person like me in your alliance. (Though most of the alliances I've been in have enjoyed my company, I haven't really been given minister positions due to my outspokeness.) So I don't quite see how I'm incompetent, since everyone in my AA has been recruited by myself. Also, banned member knows a lot about the game. I can't speak for him but I definitely had a feeling he knew what he was talking about.

But it's all opinionated, I guess.

For me, it's Voodoo Nova. He bounces off from favorable situation to favorable situation using his past to get him into government positions and uses PR to get where he wants. I've never really seen him stand for anything, and he's not a true friend.

But that's my opinion, I guess.

If I were rated at all, it would definitely be in the over category.

For as much as you have it in for me, and I've no idea why, people say you do a lot of work behind the scenes to make Argent work. I respect that a lot and wouldn't place you as over.

Edited October 5, 2009 by The AUT

[Sunstar]

It's not an easy thing getting into government a month after you join the game (much less the alliance).

3 months Walker, lets not get greedy.

[WildThing]

I can get behind Hoo and Sam.....even myself at certain points in time....but if there is anyone in this game who is under rated...it's Grub. The man has worked his way up from the bottom to the man on point in 2 Sanctioned alliances. He has stared down the barrel of certain doom and survived. If that proves anything is that he is far from over rated. If there is one leader in this game that has earned a free pass from this thread it is Grub.

Grub was one of Polaris' leading trolls, right up there with Penchuk (although much better at it) back when they were part of 1V and all about trolling Citadel. I know all the blame for Polars demise either falls on Electron Sponge if you believe what Citadel/Hegemony tell you, or NPO if you believe what everyone else tells you, but personally I'd put a good deal of blame on Grub alongside Sponge as far as alienating Citadel went. He helped make it easy for NPO to isolate them. And as great as it is that he's turned Polaris around, and I certainly agree with you all that Polaris has turned around, they're one of my favorite alliances these days however I'd personally give most of the credit to people like Penguin who are more than just trolls dressed up in tuxedo's.

Don't let this make you think that I don't rate Grub at all, I do, both as a troll and a leader. I just think he gets more credit than he deserves.

Edit: NpO isn't the only alliance that has been seriously curbstomped and survived either.. Everyone keeps pointing at GOONs and \m/ as reasons why simply holding an alliance together during a curbstomp is some amazing feat. GPA, GATO, MK and now even TPF, IRON and NPO have all held together through curbstomps, some harsher than NpO's was and I don't personally rate NPO's leadership as Godly just because they're growing reasonably fast again now. It'd be tragic if they weren't, not amazing that they are.

Edited October 5, 2009 by WildThing

[ty345]

Ejay's rapping ability is overrated.

Now, for the REAL thread: Hoo, Ivan, Dilber, etc.

[WalkerNinja]

3 months Walker, lets not get greedy.

I stand corrected. Forgot the date of my first election.

[TheEraser]

He was good enought to get Polaris rolled and Grub wasn't good enough to stop him.

I rest my case.

By the time Grub was thrust into the position, the die had been cast. The only reason they weren't attacked yet was because the OoO was still intact. Despite Grub's best efforts, the OoO was eventually cancelled and thats when the hyenas pounced, there was no amount of leadership in the world to have been able to prevent that war. Circumstances don't define the leadership, they reveal it and Grub showed he was the highest quality leader around. If you think you can make an honest case for him being overrated then lets hear it, but i don't think you'll be able to make one

[Some-Guy]

Grub isn't over rated in my book, he's done well to administrate and lead Polar from a good hiding to being #1 in the game (well, soon in my view anyway), nor does he profess to be a messiah.

Edit: Not that we're best buddies or anything, I just call 'em as I see 'em.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Some-Guy

[Cornelius]

I honestly believe I made a better diplomat or adviser than a leader. I've heard several people say they don't like the VE, but they like me. That always confused me, because as the leader I have to be somewhat accountable for what goes on in my alliance.

[Feanor Noldorin]

I never understood why people hero worshiped Van Hoo or Ivan for that matter. I'm sure that they were/are good leaders but I've never seen anything special out of either one of them to merit so much attention.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Feanor Noldorin

[Sandwich Controversy]

I never understood why people hero worshiped Van Hoo or Ivan for that matter. I'm sure that they were/are good leaders but I've never seen anything special out of either one of them to merit so much attention.

This guy knows what's up.

[TehChron]

I never understood why people hero worshiped Van Hoo or Ivan for that matter. I'm sure that they were/are good leaders but I've never seen anything special out of either one of them to merit so much attention.

But for those of us who have, the respect is highly deserved. Just because you don't get the joke doesn't mean it's not funny. It's just that you have no clue what's going on, is all.

Edit: Grammar fail.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Chron

[WildThing]

If you think you can make an honest case for him being overrated then lets hear it, but i don't think you'll be able to make one

3 posts before yours... 3 posts. People around here...

[Hyperion321]

Slayer also comes to mind for me as an overrated leader. I'll probably get trolled to hell for saying it, but he was really good at being an asshat sometimes. >_>

[Feanor Noldorin]

But for those of us who have, the respect is highly deserved. Just because you don't get the joke doesn't mean it's not funny. It's just that you have no clue what's going on, is all.

Edit: Grammar fail.

I'd started paying attention to the political arena around the time the World Unity Treaty was signed and I have been around for every event since then so the joke must be very very old.

[Archon]

I don't know what made Archon think this topic was going to garner any serious replies.

I would say I've gotten a number of serious replies. Not quite in the form of what I expected, but still, serious all the same.

Anyway, I've only gotten one email oddly enough. I'll format it and post it later...it's a rather scathing rundown on the NPO government, past and present.

[TehChron]

I'd started paying attention to the political arena around the time the World Unity Treaty was signed and I have been around for every event since then so the joke must be very very old.

Ivan wasn't even emperor back then, so of course you wouldn't get it. Ive been paying attention on and off since Polar War One.

I have a bit more perspective on this than you do, as do most other folks who respect Ivan.

[Crymson]

I agree with those who have declared Grub highly-underrated (though there appears to be another thread on 'underrated governments' now); in my experiences, Grub has always been thoughtful, cordial and intelligent in his foreign affairs workings, and the miraculous regrowth Polaris has seen in the last year leads me to infer that he's very capable on the internal spectrum of administration as well.

I agree with those who have said that Grub was neither responsible for nor had a reasonable chance of averting the war of last August. Certain government figures who preceded him had simply done far too much to anger too many people; the hostility and grievances toward Polar at the time were intense such that I'm not sure there were any standard (i.e., excluding anything extraordinary) foreign affairs measures available to him that could have averted the war on his alliance. Grub had the misfortune to have been essentially, at the start of his term as emperor, thrown in the path of a speeding train by his predecessor; the internal revitalization and recovery and the foreign affairs re-integration and (positive) change in character and image that Polaris has seen under his term in office have been extremely impressive. I'm sure this has certainly been the collective work of a very diverse cast within Polar (just as it would be in any organization), but being a quality leader throughout such a period of trials cannot have been an easy task, and Grub seems to have done a very solid job.

[Feanor Noldorin]

Ivan wasn't even emperor back then, so of course you wouldn't get it. Ive been paying attention on and off since Polar War One.

I have a bit more perspective on this than you do, as do most other folks who respect Ivan.

You respect someone for something they did over three years ago. That's cool.