Athens Announcement

[Alterego]

Epic stuff, looking forward to the next Athens cancellation.

edit:spelling

Edited August 31, 2009 by Alterego

[Taget]

This was not an attempt to rally support against TSI, or slander them, this was a treaty cancelation where we were honest, everyone whines about how everything happens in shady backrooms and nobody is willing to change the way they act since the evil NPO has disappeared, here we are trying to do things the 'right way'.

People inquire about all the details about the cancellation because they are rather nosy and bored and enjoy a little bit of drama to break up the monotony of paying bills and collecting. That doesn't mean sometimes things are best left unsaid. Particularly since what people ask for and what they actually want can be two different beasts entirely. People would've respected a simple "reasons were given in private."

As for what went down the evidence presented is that Athens and TSI didn't get along and had a number of issues real and/or imagined and did the correct thing in parting ways.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Taget

[Chimaera]

The only thing people outside of Karma can possibly complain about are Echelon's terms and forced government banning. Other than that, Athens, C&G, and Karma have done absolutely nothing that could even be misconstrued as immoral.

Athens are fantastic people, and IAA's with you on this one.

[Huang Ti]

Epic stuff, looking forward to the next Athens cancellation.

+1

Athens treaty cancellations - Entertainment of the post-Hegamony world

[James Maximus]

The only thing people outside of Karma can possibly complain about are Echelon's terms and forced government banning. Other than that, Athens, C&G, and Karma have done absolutely nothing that could even be misconstrued as immoral.

Athens are fantastic people, and IAA's with you on this one.

Who exactly is complaining about terms? We are upset about the baseless accusations on TSI. One of the "incidents" had to do with Londo wanting revenge on NPO and no one is really saying that was particularly wrong, Just that everyone already knew what he would do/did with both "top secret" intel leaks. Both of which TSI had nothing to do with.

[Alterego]

The only thing people outside of Karma can possibly complain about are Echelon's terms and forced government banning. Other than that, Athens, C&G, and Karma have done absolutely nothing that could even be misconstrued as immoral.

There you have it, its immoral and even close friends agree. Congrats on not racking up as many immoral acts in 2 months as those who had 2 years to commit their alleged immoral acts, its a real moral victory.

Anyway, congrats TSI.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Alterego

[Eric Cantona]

1. Stay on topic

2. Calm down

3. ???

4. Profit!

If I wasn't clear enough, I'll be handing out warns like candies if you don't behave.

[Fallout]

If there's no proof, then what did you base your conclusion that TSI received any information, and that we dispensed it to your enemies? It just doesn't make sense unless you can back up your actions with something.

The proof is known only to those that had access to the information. Londo has said already that in all of his logs of the time, the information was revealed only to one person (this is what I mean by the evidence is a lack of physical evidence.) We can KNOW that it was shared with TSI and we can KNOW that it was somehow delivered into Hegemony hands. We BELIEVE that it was TSI based on the evidence we have, that the information took a single, one-way trip to TSI leadership because, at this point if I understand correctly, only Londo and your leader knew and I have doubts Londo double-crossed himself, or he's a LOT more dastardly than he would lead even fellow Athenians to believe

If the information was known only by two people, but then NPO found out, someone had to have leaked it. And I think it's pretty easily assumed it was not leaked by the one that it could hurt.

Also, the second part of your argument is not entirely true. There was no bad blood towards Athens until this point; we simply wanted a treaty cancellation simply because neither of us benefited from the agreement due to the lack of any communication, although I can't speak for Athens regarding their reasoning. Just clearing that up.

You have a point here, you're right. I was commenting more on the status of the thread, not so much the feelings of Athenians in considering canceling the treaty. But I do maintain that neither of us had interest in backing each other up if we were mutually unwilling to take a little time to maintain communication.

[KagetheSecond]

Well, better to end it now rather than lead them on..

[James Maximus]

The proof is known only to those that had access to the information. Londo has said already that in all of his logs of the time, the information was revealed only to one person (this is what I mean by the evidence is a lack of physical evidence.) We can KNOW that it was shared with TSI and we can KNOW that it was somehow delivered into Hegemony hands. We BELIEVE that it was TSI based on the evidence we have, that the information took a single, one-way trip to TSI leadership because, at this point if I understand correctly, only Londo and your leader knew and I have doubts Londo double-crossed himself, or he's a LOT more dastardly than he would lead even fellow Athenians to believe

If the information was known only by two people, but then NPO found out, someone had to have leaked it. And I think it's pretty easily assumed it was not leaked by the one that it could hurt.

Come on man... there is no way that Londo would give ONLY Shuru info about something. How many other allies do you guys have? Why were they not informed? And if they were then clearly more people than Shuru knew about it. The reasoning behind giving an ODP partner secret info and not telling your MDP+ partners boggles my mind... so much so that it can't be true.

[Bjornoya]

Which they said was based on circumstantial evidence and clearly stated this was the conclusion they came to given what they had, which means it was indeed built upon something. They're not trying to push this down anyone's throat and are stating their own judgment, something they're entirely allowed to have.

If the evidence is circumstantial (which at best if any it is) Londo should have simply stated a treaty was being canceled and left it at that. Instead he tried to open old wounds in this PR stunt.

And by this standard I could say, "TSI decided to drop our treaty as we have reached the conclusion Athens may eat babies, we're not trying to shove this down anyone's throats or make a big deal, we just don't feel comfortable being allied to baby-eaters"

This is a serious accusation leveled against us that has repercusions for both our alliances outside this treaty cancellation. Such an accusation deserves evidence, which Athens has not provided

[Londo Mollari]

Come on man... there is no way that Londo would give ONLY Shuru info about something. How many other allies do you guys have? Why were they not informed? And if they were then clearly more people than Shuru knew about it. The reasoning behind giving an ODP partner secret info and not telling your MDP+ partners boggles my mind... so much so that it can't be true.

The remarks that I made in re: to NPO, I didn't say anything quite like that to anyone else, and certainly not to NPO or to Mary. I was alerted that word had gotten to NPO that I had said X, Y, and Z by an ally of mine. It then became apparent that mhawk had told NPO what was said. I was concerned and went back through my logs trying to find what had happened. The rumor that had spread around was fairly specific in what I had said, and I did not say or imply anything directly to NPO like what was in the rumor, only to Shurukian as far as I could tell, one day before my ally told me that word of something I had said had gotten to NPO. Not only would it not make sense for me to gloat to NPO's face about getting revenge on them (and I went back through my logs and I did nothing of the sort), what I was told is that word had gotten to them indirectly of me saying this. Certainly not by my telling their Imperial Regent. The logical explanation to our minds is that what I said to Shurukian 1 day before (which was quite similiar to the rumor being spread around) had been passed by Shuru to Mhawk.

It's possible that Shuru told mhawk nothing in regards to the Menotah situation, I suppose. But what that situation did was make me ask why we were keeping the treaty. It was the first time she'd come and talked to me since right after the other incident. And immediately, mhawk was spreading the word about what was happening.

[Starfox101]

Really? You're bashing Athens for canceling a treaty with an alliance they no longer trusted?

Why on earth would Athens haters be angry they have one less ally?

It's their choice who to align themselves with, and TSI is clearly on the other side. It's a smart move.

[Shurukian]

Londo did not want revenge for the NoCB war terms, a victorious war against NPO was more then we had ever hoped for and Londo was the driving force trying to bind karma together to ensure NPO got any terms.

This is what we are annoyed at though, the conversation between Londo and Shuru was nothing bad, Londo never indicated he wanted revenge, just how hard it was for Athens to retain members as they dropped away due to the lack of banks athens had at the time and the restriction of outside aid for our bill locked nations.

For an ally of Athens to then take that conversation out of context, and for you yourself to wrap your little mittens over it and use it as a catalyst for your "Londo is evil and is just as bad as us" campaign, its totally against what Athens believes a true ally to be.

EDIT: dance jack dance.

EDIT: cant take my eyes off him.

Excuse me, I don't know who's telling you what, but I was never informed of Athens bank nations or aid for bill locked nations, and frankly, I didn't want to know. Our treaty was suspended for the war. Our conversation was a conversation of me asking him about a rumor that I'd heard, about how Athens had ordered LSR, at the time, to attack us. Londo and I talked it over, and found that it was a false rumor. Then, suddenly, mhawk made an OWF post where he referenced a mutual friend, and Londo automatically assumed it was me. I woke up to angry queries and messages, and you can see me talking to Londo about it below. We've already cleared this up.

07:59… Shurukian[TSI]: Hello, you around?

07:59… Londo: Yeah.

07:59… Shurukian[TSI]: [rescinded] told me we need to talk.

08:00… Shurukian[TSI]: Okay, I just woke up, it's 8AM here, so I have no idea what's going on.

08:00… Shurukian[TSI]: Let me find this thread.

08:00… Shurukian[TSI]: I'm told that I'm accused of sharing information?

08:00… Londo: mhawk seemed to indicate that

08:00… Shurukian[TSI]: Yeah, well mhawk's a dumb*** sometimes.

08:00… Shurukian[TSI]: Okay, let me find this.

08:02… Shurukian[TSI]: You don't happen to have a link or a knowledge of what page his post was on?

08:02… Londo: kk

08:02… Londo: haha

08:02… Londo: that thread moved so fast

08:02… Londo: I'm afraid I don't

08:02… Londo: maybe

08:02… Londo: page 28 or 29

08:02… Londo: as a guess

08:08… Shurukian[TSI]: Well, that was a nice rebuttal.

08:08… Londo: which?

08:08… Shurukian[TSI]: First of all, he has no logs. If he did, he would have posted them, because he's retarted like that. Second, I didn't tell him anything.

08:08… Londo: lol

08:09… Londo: he acted like you did

08:09… Shurukian[TSI]: Sadly, I refuse to talk to mhawk on IRC, so I have no logs. We simply talk on skype. I'll tell you what happened.

08:09… Londo: and the content was sort of there

08:10… Shurukian[TSI]: Two days ago after work, I talked to him, mainly about OOC stuff. I asked him what's been up with TPF, and we got on to allies. I told him that we'd be working with you guys to get our concerns out, and that we'd be dropping GRAN.

08:10… Shurukian[TSI]: when I mentioned you, he brought up the terms.

08:10… Shurukian[TSI]: And went on a 45 minute rant.

08:10… Shurukian[TSI]: At one point, he was talking about them, and I said, "Well, NPO didn't treat Athens too nice in the past." he responded with, "

08:11… Shurukian[TSI]: "So what, is this about revenge?" I said "Well, I'm just saying, I didn't say that."

08:11… Shurukian[TSI]: So he continued his rant.

08:11… Londo: lol

08:11… Shurukian[TSI]: i fell asleep, so he let me go to bed.

08:11… Shurukian[TSI]: Last night, we were able to talk for a short amount before I called [rescinded].

08:12… Shurukian[TSI]: And he told me he was all excited, that they had all this proof that you had egineered the terms for revenge

08:12… Shurukian[TSI]: and that trotsky and him were working on a post

08:12… Londo: what a pack of retards.

08:12… Londo: I was the one working to get them terms

08:13… Londo: lol

08:13… Shurukian[TSI]: I was too upset wtih [recinded] and I's fight to bother with it, and just kind of told him not to do anything stupid, joked about rolling the hard six, and left

08:13… Londo: lolol

08:13… Shurukian[TSI]: I refuse to talk to him on IRC, cause it takes him an hour to respond to anything you say.

08:15… Shurukian[TSI]: I can tell you right now, if he had logs, 1. He would have posted them, and 2. He would have seen the part about you being the only one to get the reps started.

08:15… Shurukian[TSI]: I told you, I don't share logs.

08:15… Shurukian[TSI]: It was a passing mention in a conversation that I spent most of my time asleep during

08:15… Shurukian[TSI]: Though mhawk is close to a genius, he lacks common sense sometimes.

08:16… Shurukian[TSI]: So that's probably what his "it came out" reference was.

08:18… Shurukian[TSI]: Londo,everyone has thought this would be a revenge thing.

Later:

08:35… Shurukian[TSI]: I'll try to figure out where mhawk got all this stuff from.

08:35… Londo: lol

08:35… Londo: I'd really appreciate that.

08:35… Shurukian[TSI]: cause when I told [rescinded] last night, that was his big question too

08:36… Shurukian[TSI]: And I had to tell him I didn't know

08:36… Londo: Because I can't imagine having said anything like that.

08:36… Shurukian[TSI]: You can ask [rescinded], I told him all about mhawk's big thing last night

08:36… Londo: And hell even if I did.

08:36… Londo: So what?

08:36… Londo: I'm still the one trying to get them terms

08:36… Londo: and better ones at that.

08:36… Shurukian[TSI]: mhm

08:36… Londo: :-p

08:36… Londo: But no I don't remember saying anything like that

08:37… Shurukian[TSI]: Well, I say stupid !@#$ and don't expect it to get anywhere.

08:37… Shurukian[TSI]: Everyone does.

08:37… Shurukian[TSI]: I'll ask.

08:38… Londo: thanks

The next day:

18:27… Londo: Back

18:27… Londo: Shurukian[TSI]

18:37… Shurukian[TSI] is now known as Shurukian[bRB]

19:18… Shurukian[bRB]: hey

19:18… Shurukian[bRB]: sorry

19:18… Shurukian[bRB]: I found out who that post was referencing

19:18… Shurukian[bRB] is now known as Shurukian[TSI]

19:18… Shurukian[TSI]: You here?

19:18… Londo: yes

19:18… Shurukian[TSI]: It wasn't referencing me

19:18… Shurukian[TSI]: the mutual friend post

19:19… Shurukian[TSI]: it was referencing mary

19:21… Londo: Very odd.

19:21… Londo: But ah well.

19:21… Londo: @_@

When I later reviewed the post, the information in question wasn't the revenge aspect, but that I had supposedly said that Londo was 'bragging' about the NPO terms. The story? Mary got upset about how Londo was throwing around that he was the only one working on terms, and that he was doing so good to them, and took it as bragging, and him trying to shove it in their face. She got mad, and talked about it. End of story.

EDIT::

The remarks that I made in re: to NPO, I didn't say anything quite like that to anyone else, and certainly not to NPO or to Mary. I was alerted that word had gotten to NPO that I had said X, Y, and Z by an ally of mine. It then became apparent that mhawk had told NPO what was said. I was concerned and went back through my logs trying to find what had happened. The rumor that had spread around was fairly specific in what I had said, and I did not say or imply anything directly to NPO like what was in the rumor, only to Shurukian as far as I could tell, one day before my ally told me that word of something I had said had gotten to NPO. Not only would it not make sense for me to gloat to NPO's face about getting revenge on them (and I went back through my logs and I did nothing of the sort), what I was told is that word had gotten to them indirectly of me saying this. Certainly not by my telling their Imperial Regent. The logical explanation to our minds is that what I said to Shurukian 1 day before (which was quite similiar to the rumor being spread around) had been passed by Shuru to Mhawk.

I addressed this above. I went to bed that night because mhawk started a call with Moo and Mary that lasted forever, and I was tired of waiting. So yes, it all came together in the same night. And which rumor, the one that you were bragging, or the one that you wanted revenge?

As stated earlier, I think everyone on Bob thought Athens wanted revenge, and I don't think that would be much of a secret to run around with. As for the bragging, I didn't even know that was an issue, and the explanation of the situation is above.

It's possible that Shuru told mhawk nothing in regards to the Menotah situation, I suppose. But what that situation did was make me ask why we were keeping the treaty. It was the first time she'd come and talked to me since right after the other incident. And immediately, mhawk was spreading the word about what was happening.

I stopped asking you about Menatoah because Mia added me into the call with mhawk, where she was telling him and Airikr what was going on, and asking for advice. If you noticed, you avoided most of my questions, and gave me vague answers. It made you reconsider? Our ODP partner was considering going to war, and had supposedly been working on it for weeks, and hadn't informed us. I think that made me reconsider a little more than it made you.

So I've now proven both of the supposed times I've 'leaked' information to be incorrect.

Do I really need to keep going, or do you want to try to slander me some more?

Edited August 31, 2009 by Shurukian

[Hyperion321]

If the evidence is circumstantial (which at best if any it is) Londo should have simply stated a treaty was being canceled and left it at that. Instead he tried to open old wounds in this PR stunt.

And by this standard I could say, "TSI decided to drop our treaty as we have reached the conclusion Athens may eat babies, we're not trying to shove this down anyone's throats or make a big deal, we just don't feel comfortable being allied to baby-eaters"

This is a serious accusation leveled against us that has repercusions for both our alliances outside this treaty cancellation. Such an accusation deserves evidence, which Athens has not provided

First of all, Londo doesn't eat babies. He punches them in the face. There's a big difference.

Secondly, TSI's allies trust TSI. Athens' allies trust Athens. We can argue about Mhawk or Londo being a jerk all we want but the bottom line is neither side is going to magically convince the other side's allies that they are not to be trusted. There really isn't a point to this thread any more.

It's Athens' word vs. Yours, and quite frankly, neither camp is going to stop trusting their friends just because the other camp's friends tell them to. Thinking otherwise is quite ignorant of everyone's sense of duty to friends these days.

[Jerry Kellerman]

First of all, Londo doesn't eat babies. He punches them in the face. There's a big difference.

Secondly, TSI's allies trust TSI. Athens' allies trust Athens. We can argue about Mhawk or Londo being a jerk all we want but the bottom line is neither side is going to magically convince the other side's allies that they are not to be trusted. There really isn't a point to this thread any more.

It's Athens' word vs. Yours, and quite frankly, neither camp is going to stop trusting their friends just because the other camp's friends tell them to. Thinking otherwise is quite ignorant of everyone's sense of duty to friends these days.

Not everyone reading this thread is a member of one of the two groups, Athens allies and TSI allies. Personally, I'm just interested in knowing the truth behind this matter, because if I'm going to be interested in getting to know one of these alliances better in the future, I want to know if they are in the habit of sharing private information or in the habit of spreading lies.

TSI has provided logs showing they did not receive the information which was alleged to be leaked. Unless Athens has rebuttal logs, it appears TSI's version of the events is accurate.

[Drostan]

I love the beacon of light image. If you don't know Athens, you're missing out imo.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Drostan

[D34th]

Really? You're bashing Athens for canceling a treaty with an alliance they no longer trusted?

Why on earth would Athens haters be angry they have one less ally?

It's their choice who to align themselves with, and TSI is clearly on the other side. It's a smart move.

If you read this thread carefully you will see that people aren't bashing Athens for canceling a treaty with an alliance they no longer trusted.

[Buds The Man]

I read the first six pages. Was any proof of TSI leaking information produced after that or have I just saved myself from exposure to the usual pointless back and forth interspersed with unfunny 'jokes'?

If the former, then I shall prepare myself to be both shocked and disappointed.

If the latter, I'm going to assume none exists.

You know, it may very well be that Athens believes that TSI leaked something. In my experience, though, that would be contrary to every dealing I have had with the good folks in TSI, especially Shurukian.

Allow me to put forth Option #3. Information was leaked, but not by TSI. Athens has made an honest mistake in hurling an accusation Shurukian's way.

Not that I suppose it matters much, since TSI was planning on pulling the plug on this anyway. At the end of the day nothing to see here, everyone go home, etc. etc. etc.

Zog ever so quick to a point and you still havent missed anything really

Really? You're bashing Athens for canceling a treaty with an alliance they no longer trusted?

Why on earth would Athens haters be angry they have one less ally?

It's their choice who to align themselves with, and TSI is clearly on the other side. It's a smart move.

SF your reading comprehension is going down. No one is angry at the dropping of teh treaty as the feeling was mutual the problem is the OPs statement that puts TSIs trustworthines in question.

Just a couple of things that seem to be missing here.

1. During the war with TSI fighting on the other side and from what i gather Athens TSI treaty was suspended. IF this was the case Londo you sharing anything with them in regards to TPF or NPO they would be obligated to share with Mhawk as that treaty was still active. So IF they did share info then they were only doing what they should have done and that is honor all clauses of the ACTIVE treaty.

2. It would appear to me assuming things with out hard evidence will get you in to trouble every time. While im sure Athens could care less about many of our opinions im a little shocked as usually Londo has his facts straight and evidence to back him up before comming on the OWF. It would have served Athens better to simply state we drifted apart and left it at that as now to some of us, it appears more of a slander campaign than a simple cancellation.

I know little of Athens other than I generally can understand Londos actions and points, I may not always agree, but generally speaking he has always appeared to be a straight up guy willing to do the right thing. In this case he screwed the pooch a bit and it appears to have backfired. Good luck to Athens and TSI as you find your seperate paths here on bob.

[Max Beck]

Jittery jumpin' jackrabbits! REASONS FOR CANCELLATIONS!

Dude, that's amazingly awesome, in and of itself.

o/ to my good buddies in Athens. Also o/ to the complete strangers in Athens, you all sound like a bunch of solid dudes.

What's up old man? Havent spoken to you since forever plus a thousand years. Come on IRC some day will ya?

And adding something relevant to the overall discussions: Anyone can claim anything and if you don't want to believe us then don't. From our point of view we have done what we ought to. Proof or not, it's what it looks like to us. There's no proof against our claims so the only thing that remains is faith. Faith is a feeling and thus it is a matter of taste, basically. So we tasted this and decided it was pie, and pie ain't no cake. If you like pie that's your problem but we're cake people. Kthanks. lal.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Max Beck

[jerry wagner]

Understandable.... it all comes down to trust despite whatever evidence in either direction. An ally needs to be comfortable in trusting their friends.

[Mathias]

There you have it, its immoral and even close friends agree. Congrats on not racking up as many immoral acts in 2 months as those who had 2 years to commit their alleged immoral acts, its a real moral victory.

Anyway, congrats TSI.

Do you even read what you're quoting before you respond, or do you just repeat the same lines over and over again?

[Johnny Apocalypse]

I was wondering.

If the information has already been leaked, surely revealing to us what it was that was leaked and providing said logs won't really hurt will it?

[FreddieMercury]

What's up old man? Havent spoken to you since forever plus a thousand years. Come on IRC some day will ya?

And adding something relevant to the overall discussions: Anyone can claim anything and if you don't want to believe us then don't. From our point of view we have done what we ought to. Proof or not, it's what it looks like to us. There's no proof against our claims so the only thing that remains is faith. Faith is a feeling and thus it is a matter of taste, basically. So we tasted this and decided it was pie, and pie ain't no cake. If you like pie that's your problem but we're cake people. Kthanks. lal.

Your alliance's accusations attack TSI's credibility, something that most alliances are proud of having a clean record for. To go on something as extremely flimsy "feelings", then bring it to the OWF and obviously damaging the image of TSI in the eyes of your allies is what most would politely call: unclassey. If you want to slander in public, you better bring the beef, quick PR tip there.

And ironically, you guys seem to be damaging Athen's credibility most.

[Zeta Defender]

A quick tl:dr for people skipping to this page without reading the beginning:

Athens: We cancel on TSI due to them sharing information that we gave them. They aren't honorable.

TSI: What proof do you have Londo?

Londo: ?????????

TSI: Here are our logs Londo is a lying just to gain PR points.

Londo: No U.