TPF's Response to Terms Offered

[BamaBuc]

If you were on coldfront during the weekend of April 17th-19th, you would know what he's talking about. For once, Astronaut says something smart.

Everyone and their mother knew TPF and PC would hit eachother during the Karma War, it was just a matter of declaring first. TPF expected to war with Poison Clan and intended to destroy Poison Clan, fortunately for Poison Clan TPF just didn't have any idea what they were stepping into.

TPF and PC being hostile toward each other is nothing new. Where is the evidence that TPF actually planned to hit PC?

-Bama

[Leftbehind]

Poison Clan should have been rolled a long time ago, as well as most of Pink sphere. I hope not to see TPF disband, because its only a matter of time before PC gets their just deserts for their past crimes. Y'know, what comes around goes around or something like that. And should this result in TPF's disbandment, I'm going to laugh because this Hegemony will be no better than the previous one.

Anyways, best of luck TPF.

If TPF disbands its because they are being petty. I can understand their stance on not paying a dime to PC but if they are willing to throw their community away because of it then they do not deserve to be to be an alliance. The main job of an alliance is to protect their membership. They could always rebuild and plan their revenge on PC later. Seriously get off your high horse.

You saying that this Hegemony is just as bad as the last one is a foolish thing to say. The new order of the world is in its very young stage. Why don't you give it a chance before you cast judgment like that? The war is just ending and everyone seems to forget that war is not pretty.

[King Srqt]

It's not dishonor if they followed the wording of the treaty, which by your own admission, they did. Dick move or not, its still the way the treaty was worded.

They still broke the treaty to attack TPF no matter how you slice it. They may have legally been able to do it but since when is it not dishonorable to break a treaty?

[crazymatty]

So PC doesn't get 20K tech and has to fight TPF into disbandment?Oh darn. However will I sleep.

If OBM and the rest of the hippes had ANY clue as to what PC wants and therefore would do the exact opposite... they would pay the reps.

[OneBallMan]

How is it an issue? We've already established that even if PC pays California, TPF will not pay PC. Therefore California being payed or not holds no importance in the negotiation.

Oh no. It is so much better than that. PC and TPF came to an agreement of reps to pay in this war and THEN California's reps were added onto ours.

That, as they say, was our moment. There was no way forward from there. Frankly, we'd have probably swallowed the reps to PC as agreed. But, after that, well, our membership, to a person was done. Not a dime to them. To hear MK et al defend that is something that I still can't fathom.

[mythicknight]

Poison Clan has broken the treaty of peace written on every man's heart.

[Nintenderek]

Gah, I spent 10 minutes typing up a response and then my browser screwed up >

Anyway, here's how I see it. I can see it both ways. PC did indeed follow the legality of the treaty, however they still broke it. Looking at the way it's worded, I think the biggest mistake was made by both alliances when they signed the damn thing. I mean, seriously, anybody can take one look at the cancellation clause and could have been able to tell that either alliance would have still been able to attack. It's one of the worst worded treaties ever pretty much. The only way to cancel it, was to brake it, so there was no point in having it in the first place except maybe as a joke. I mean, both alliances have pretty much always hated each other since PC was founded. There's much more to why TPF doesn't want to pay PC, or so I believe. I think at this point, it would be best for TPF to just pay the damn reps and start plotting their revenge. They can get PC back in the next war, twice as hard. It is the age of Karma after all.

[der_ko]

Excellent. I do so enjoy TPFs self-mutilation.

[ChairmanHal]

argument: PC used e-lawering to break a signed treaty

"fact": the only clause in the treaty [NAP] worth following was the clause about respect and friendly communication. That clause was constantly violated by Slayer99 and other members of TPF verbally attacking Poison Clan on these forums. Really the treaty was valueless.

Truth: The treaty was in fact valueless, but for another reason.

argument: TPF only entered the war by selflessly defending their allies

"fact": On the weekend of April 18th-20th everyone and their mother went into #poisonclan and #tpf on coldfront. Hegemony and pals were prepared to strike. I was getting blasted with queries from dozens of alliance leaders [and several PC leaders] about how TPF was going to hit PC. Just before update, the attack plans were discarded. It was merely a blinking contest, but TPF was surely prepared for the attack to come. The only reason TPF decides to play the "selfless defense of allies" card is that they were caught off guard by the brute strength of Poison Clan. the might. In reality, they expected and wished for a war with Poison Clan, and Poison Clan called their bluff.

Truth: Valhalla would have known about any such attack had one been planned. It was not. We only came in later after PC hit TPF.

BTW, had things happened differently and PC not been the beneficiary of considerable Karma allied supported, PC's "brute strength" would be so much sawdust right now. PC owes its very existence to its allies and I'm certain PC realizes this.

Oh, and have fun in ZI mhawk. OP made me chuckle, TPF is doomed.

So is $1.3 billion in reparations payments if TPF folds. Oh but its only other people's money right? It means nothing.

[Finster Baby]

Ok, fine, I've figured out how this can all be settled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUee1WvtQZU

[crazymatty]

That, as they say, was our moment.

Wait, so that whole OP wasn't "your moment"? You keep changing your moment. Cause I thought it was because we attacked blah blah blah...right? But now you have latched onto something different. Hmmm...

I think you should change your name to NoBallMan, cause the last one you owned is most certainty in mhawks purse.

[Kilkenny]

If TPF disbands its because they are being petty. I can understand their stance on not paying a dime to PC but if they are willing to throw their community away because of it then they do not deserve to be to be an alliance. The main job of an alliance is to protect their membership. They could always rebuild and plan their revenge on PC later. Seriously get off your high horse.

You saying that this Hegemony is just as bad as the last one is a foolish thing to say. The new order of the world is in its very young stage. Why don't you give it a chance before you cast judgment like that? The war is just ending and everyone seems to forget that war is not pretty.

I know you are not quoting someone from PC, but we will never disband.

[King Srqt]

Wait, so that whole OP wasn't "your moment"? You keep changing your moment. Cause I thought it was because we attacked blah blah blah...right? But now you have latched onto something different. Hmmm...

I think you should change your name to NoBallMan, cause the last one you owned is most certainty in mhawks purse.

Maybe it's because you guys have been such jerks through ths war that they have multiple reasons to not want to give you anything.

[Captain Flinders]

Maybe it's because you guys have been such jerks through ths war that they have multiple reasons to not want to give you anything.

If it were any other alliance (save a select few) this might make sense. But TPF calling people jerks does not fly.

[Shurukian]

You know, now that I think about it, mhawk and I were two of the first people to find these reps in the super secret unprotected channel. And when the spreadsheet was first up, PC's numbers were lower. So why the increase? I know when I went to Twisted as a representative for California, he said they'd think about maybe paying the reps that CTB promised them. From what I see, the tech increase almost levels the 120 million out. So is PC trying to make TPF pay their own protectorate's reps? Because that's certainly what it looks like to me.

Well isn't that a fun idea. I should go start another war and win it so I can get that alliance to pay TSI's reps too.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Shurukian

[Trout]

You know, now that I think about it, mhawk and I were two of the first people to find these reps in the super secret unprotected channel. And when the spreadsheet was first up, PC's numbers were lower. So why the increase? I know when I went to Twisted as a representative for California, he said they'd think about maybe paying the reps that CTB promised them. From what I see, the tech increase almost levels the 120 million out. So is PC trying to make TPF pay their own protectorate's reps? Because that's certainly what it looks like to me.

Well isn't that a fun idea. I should go start another war and win it so I can get that alliance to pay TSI's reps too.

Yes! More wars!

[Shimmer]

I respect your decision to continuing the path you believe is right.

[Leftbehind]

I know you are not quoting someone from PC, but we will never disband.

I never said you would. I was just responding to what I quoted. I honestly hope you guys don't disband but I feel that you guys are just digging a hole for yourself but its your call.

[Rush Sykes]

I actually think TPF-PC was possibly the only NAP with a point in a very long time. It's stupid for friends to sign NAPs because friends shouldn't have to be told not to kill each other. You may as well just make it a PIAT. The only practical reason for an NAP is for people who can't stand each other to use it to prevent conflict. Though it obviously didn't work in this case.

-Bama

The ONLY way, and I mean the ONLY way to ensure a NAP is actually a valid deterrent to aggression, is to set it for a defined period of time, with no cancellation clauses....such as 90 days.... The leadership of TPF is not moronic, they know this. I find it very highly unlikely that the moronic wording of the article was NOT put their intentionally.

[janax]

Much respect to TPF.

PC has no right to demand blood money in this situation. They broke a treaty just to attack their treaty partner. How !@#$@#$ low can you get? Seriously, it's hard to believe all those alliances on the Karma side of this front would put their signatures on such a joke of a rep.

The term of paying reparations to PC is far worse in TPF's eyes, than the ridiculous 1k tech stipulation placed on NPO and Echelon.

That's not a very cute demeanor

[x Tela x]

That's not a very cute demeanor

True story.

I lol'd. Thanks, Janax.

[Diogenes]

Do the people arguing in defense of TPF honestly hold NAP treaties in such a high regard? Would it have made such a massive difference to you had Poison Clan "formally" canceled the treaty, waited however long the cancellation clause required and then attacked?

NAP treaties are worthless to begin with, but especially so when one party is practically forced into signing the treaty after paying their counterpart what amounts to protection money. If treaties are supposed to mirror the relationship upon which they're signed, then I'd say the way this one was signed, maintained and canceled did exactly that.

[kingzog]

So much to read, so little sense....

Extortion clearly does not apply after you [lose] a war.

Oh Lordy. Whatever skills you may claim to have, common sense is not one of them.

Anyway, knowing the reason for TPF's refusal, I completely understand their position.

To me, the spirit of a treaty is just as important as the letter of a treaty. Why it was written that way (by mhawk, apparently?) is irrelevant. The fact is that, regardless of the author's intent, the other signatory broke it first. Had TPF broken it in like manner, all those currently defending PC would have pounced on TPF's 'dishonor'.

I guess it really is all about which side one's on.

I honestly think that if TPF is to pay reps to PC, then part of the terms should be that PC pays their 120 million reps to California first, which California still hasn't seen a cent of from when PC raided the TPF protectorates during the war.

And that.

Of all the alliances on the 'Hegemomy' side, TPF's has been among the most honorable. Raiding protectorates during a war is low.

And Mr. Flinders, that is why TSI and Nordreich signed a treaty. (Just pointing that out, since you seem not to understand why the 'California thing' is relevant to the bigger picture.)

These surrender terms lack all members having to denounce phoenix worshipping white supremacy and disband.

OK....maybe I laughed just a little at that part.

Pardon my manners, but I will answer your question with a question. Has TPF done anything that has shown you they have truly changed?

They talked to me. I thought that was a pretty big leap.

Thus far the best argument the Karma side has come up with is, "We won. Get over it."

That sounds like someone....can't....quite....put my finger on who....

Oh yeah. Those guys.

What's even more amazing is that people from both sides seem quite content to point out the "double standards" at play here.

Someone want to remind me what this war was all about again?

[LJ Scott]

Someone want to remind me what this war was all about again?

Raiding tech

[Tygaland]

Someone want to remind me what this war was all about again?

Knocking the Continuum/1V bloc off their pedestal?