TPF's Response to Terms Offered

[deth2munkies]

E-lawyers be damned, past transgressions be damned, if you look at it in the simple light of what is going on you can easily take issue with it. What the leaders of TPF are doing is letting a grudge that has gone on far past this current war dictate the suffering of the rest of their members. The goal of alliance leaders is to promote a safe and prosperous environment for their citizens, and TPFs leaders are doing neither. That is why people should take issue with it.

Since then however, with each OWF slap in the face, IRC insult, PM trashing, etc.... a renewed sense of dislike has formed......and hardened. It's the likes of OBM, Clif, Half, Myke and myself that now say not a dime to PC. FFS they declared on us, with no real treaty bound reason and at the same time broke a treaty with us....albeit a stupid NAP. Their DoW was nothing more than opportunistic bandwagoning at it's worst.....chickenshiat. I personally would rather sit here in PM, slowly crawling back to 1000 infra, get some nukes and join the party again, lather, rinse, repeat. I'm a patient man.

Send PC reps.....I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.

Reinforcing my point.

[SpoiL]

It seems the main thing, as addressed by TPF in this thread, is that they aren't willing to give a single reparation to PC. Even if PC were to halve or take a fourth of their currently offered reps, TPF is saying they still wouldn't pay it. I personally think those alliances are willing to work further with TPF on reps but it seems TPF's statement effectively prevents it.

I think that is quite the lie. If the tech amount was reduced to 50, they would take it in a heartbeat.

[OneBallMan]

I think that is quite the lie. If the tech amount was reduced to 50, they would take it in a heartbeat.

Not a dime. A bloodsoaked, brownstained, wooden dime.

[lakerzz8]

Elysium once forced Barbarossa out of government of an alliance because he angered them, then attacked Blitzkrieg when they let him back in. In other words mhawk dictated the government of an alliance he had nothing to do with because someone made him mad.

Elysium was part of the initial jump on Hyperion in the noCB war.

Elysium threatened and schemed using it's connections to Valhalla as a way to do so at little personal risk.

Elysium was a very aggressive alliance, preferring threats to diplomacy.

Please don't say that Elysium was respected. The only people who respected them were Valhalla, and that's all most people need to know they were not a benevolent alliance.

Not to mention the fact that Elysium voluntarily merged into TPF. Alliances with similar mindsets and a lot in common merge together. This means Elysium liked where TPF was going and did not mind their history.

[OneBallMan]

Do you see how ignoring valid points doesn't make them go away? At least we've learned something today.

But let's expand on your idea that California was taking into account when mhawk first brought a proposal to those fighting him. Why does that not seem to add up with the new 500 million dollar difference between what Karma is asking and what TPF will give? Surely you don't believe PC should be paying 500 million dollars for the raid.

You've got two points. First, my apologies for my flippancy. Second, you are also right. We'll pay every dime of those other reps. Alas, the 120M owed to California + the 20K tech, you'll bleed out of our frozen butts before we allow ourselves to be extorted. Hell, we'll even agree to peace right this second to ANY amount that MK et al think is due them in their benevolence. But not.one.dime.to.PC.

Read what our sworn enemy pezstar said. They regret succumbing to Valhalla's extortion. That should explain to everyone where we are at.

[lakerzz8]

Poor wording in the treaty, perhaps. I suppose if you use the old WUT as an example, you have a case.

However, that doesn't make it any less disgusting on PC's part.

PC is not alone in this strategy of canceling treaties prior to a war in order to remain neutral or join the side you are more closely tied to. The only difference is that PC had no cancellation clause with which to do this but to directly declare war.

Now I'm not advocating canceling treaties to avoid war/join the right side of the war. I'm just commenting on a common practice on Planet Bob.

Edit: Grammar

Edited July 25, 2009 by lakerzz8

[SpoiL]

Not a dime. A bloodsoaked, brownstained, wooden dime.

I don't believe you, but you won't convince me so don't bother.

Like I said before, screw your principle. You lost. Pay the victor their due for surrender and come back for blood.

Or stay at war for a very weak reason. Whatever.

[Captain Flinders]

You've got two points. First, my apologies for my flippancy. Second, you are also right. We'll pay every dime of those other reps. Alas, the 120M owed to California + the 20K tech, you'll bleed out of our frozen butts before we allow ourselves to be extorted. Hell, we'll even agree to peace right this second to ANY amount that MK et al think is due them in their benevolence. But not.one.dime.to.PC.

Read what our sworn enemy pezstar said. They regret succumbing to Valhalla's extortion. That should explain to everyone where we are at.

That's all fine and valid and is your stance to make. I was just highlighting the California is really a non issue. I enjoy watching TPF in prolonged war anyway. TPF deserves it.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Captain Flinders

[SyndicatedINC]

Not a dime. A bloodsoaked, brownstained, wooden dime.

Need to change your name to OneBrassBallMan

[D34th]

PC is not alone in this strategy of canceling treaties prior to a war in order to remain neutral or join the side you are more closely tied to. The only difference is that PC had no cancellation clause with which to do this but to directly declare war.

Now I'm not advocating canceling treaties to avoid war/join the right side of the war. I'm just commenting on a common practice on Planet Bob.

Edit: Grammar

Canceling treaties to avoid war/join the right side of the war being a common practice on Planet Bob just make it worse because people are becoming accustomed with it and the next step is it being a normal pratice.

[King Srqt]

That's all fine and valid and is your stance to make. I was just highlighting the California is really a non issue. I enjoy watching TPF in prolonged war anyway. TPF deserves it.

It is an issue, I confirmed it was an issue with everyone that needs confirming it with I even offered to personally pay the reps to california to try and get TPF peace which then turned into something about PC wanting Mhawk to "stop being a !@#$%*" as part of the terms or something equally idiotic. I wouldn't pay them either and it makes me sad to see some of the other alliances fighting TPF putting up with the crap that PC is spewing forth through this.

Edited July 25, 2009 by KingSrqt

[cptblck]

• Let me get the following arguments out of the way for you so we can get to the crux of the issue.
  
• But TPF is ebil, you should be ground into dust and never allowed to return
  
• Tough Cookies, you made your bed, lie in it.
  
• You say you will pay X, but by my calculations, you can pay:v2= (2k/m) cos(x)+ C' or
  v= dx/dt= sqrt((2k/m) cos(x)+ C')
  Ok. We get it you are smrt, we still get laid more.
  
• STA was made to pay big reps when entering on behalf of Polar and got !@#$%*^, so you should too.
  
• You bailed out on the UJP you must pay into eternity
  
• What is the definition of "is"?
  
• You killed my father!

:blink: did u really have to start your post by whining?

See, there is an underlying issue here, and that is simple. The Phoenix Federation entered this war in defense of an ally that was attacked. That our ally was attacked in an aggressive war is irrelevant. We honored our treaty obligation to the end.

yes you did and you guys gained alot of respect because of that

As we see it, the forces aligned against us are driven to extract every drop of blood from us because we are the last stop on this bus ride, and this is the last chance to get something, anything from the spoils of this war. We get it. You can have what we can pay. But you will not get blood from a stone. And trust me, we are stoned and will pay what has been asked.

you ever hear the phrase "you get what you give"?
also

And trust me, we are stoned and will pay what has been asked.

isn't this thread about not paying PC so how can you pay what is asked might wanna word that better

We agree that the amounts outlined by Azaghul in his post are within the range of reasonable.

good to see you agree

But we will not pay one cent to PoisonClan.

listen dude i don't agree with how PC entered this war but is it honestly worth fighting over?

[A Soviet Attack]

TPF members get laid more than the average CN player, this much is certain!

[astronaut jones]

Just curious. If PC and TPF no longer deemed themselves allies and PC wanted to end the treaty. How else could they have ended the treaty whose sole cancellation clause is breaking the treaty? Wouldn't breaking the treaty be there only way of following the terms of the treaty to end it?

PC and TPF were never allies, as I've stated before, the outrage from likes of TPF and their allies here isn't that PC violated the treaty, it's that they violated the treaty before TPF had a chance to.

So, while they're all faking outrage, and pretending like this is some heinous act, going "how dare PC break the treaty!" if they were being truthful, if they had a lick of integrity between them all, they'd really be saying "how dare PC break the treaty before TPF had a chance to!"

But as it stands, none of them have any integrity, so they continue to fake outrage towards PC because they didn't play the role that TPF wanted them to in this conflict, and they didn't get the outcome they truly desired.

[King Srqt]

listen dude i don't agree with how PC entered this war but is it honestly worth fighting over?

yes, apparently it is.

[Bernkastel]

Poison Clan should have been rolled a long time ago, as well as most of Pink sphere. I hope not to see TPF disband, because its only a matter of time before PC gets their just deserts for their past crimes. Y'know, what comes around goes around or something like that. And should this result in TPF's disbandment, I'm going to laugh because this Hegemony will be no better than the previous one.

Anyways, best of luck TPF.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Balsamic Vinegar

[Vanadrin Failing]

PC and TPF were never allies, as I've stated before, the outrage from likes of TPF and their allies here isn't that PC violated the treaty, it's that they violated the treaty before TPF had a chance to.

Pardon me for failing to read through all fourteen pages of what I'm sure is a scintillating and worthwhile discussion, but if you could direct me to the proof that this was what mhawk had planned and that it is not simply idle speculation I would be grateful for the enlightenment on this issue.

[Tron Paul]

argument: PC used e-lawering to break a signed treaty

fact: the only clause in the treaty [NAP] worth following was the clause about respect and friendly communication. That clause was constantly violated by Slayer99 and other members of TPF verbally attacking Poison Clan on these forums. Really the treaty was valueless.

argument: TPF only entered the war by selflessly defending their allies

fact: On the weekend of April 18th-20th everyone and their mother went into #poisonclan and #tpf on coldfront. Hegemony and pals were prepared to strike. I was getting blasted with queries from dozens of alliance leaders [and several PC leaders] about how TPF was going to hit PC. Just before update, the attack plans were discarded. It was merely a blinking contest, but TPF was surely prepared for the attack to come. The only reason TPF decides to play the "selfless defense of allies" card is that they were caught off guard by the brute strength of Poison Clan. the might. In reality, they expected and wished for a war with Poison Clan, and Poison Clan called their bluff.

Oh, and have fun in ZI mhawk. OP made me chuckle, TPF is doomed.

[Der Kommissar]

Let's stop with the primitive sexual OOC references and keep to the topic.

This is a general warning to all posting, any further references to this will be warned.

[Captain Flinders]

It is an issue, I confirmed it was an issue with everyone that needs confirming it with I even offered to personally pay the reps to california to try and get TPF peace which then turned into something about PC wanting Mhawk to "stop being a !@#$%*" as part of the terms or something equally idiotic. I wouldn't pay them either and it makes me sad to see some of the other alliances fighting TPF putting up with the crap that PC is spewing forth through this.

How is it an issue? We've already established that even if PC pays California, TPF will not pay PC. Therefore California being payed or not holds no importance in the negotiation.

[BamaBuc]

PC and TPF were never allies, as I've stated before, the outrage from likes of TPF and their allies here isn't that PC violated the treaty, it's that they violated the treaty before TPF had a chance to.

So, while they're all faking outrage, and pretending like this is some heinous act, going "how dare PC break the treaty!" if they were being truthful, if they had a lick of integrity between them all, they'd really be saying "how dare PC break the treaty before TPF had a chance to!"

But as it stands, none of them have any integrity, so they continue to fake outrage towards PC because they didn't play the role that TPF wanted them to in this conflict, and they didn't get the outcome they truly desired.

I still don't buy that, and here's why: Number one, if that's a loophole, it's the !@#$%^ loophole I've ever seen in my life. It specifically says "if either party BREAKS the treaty..." Last I heard, breaking a treaty was frowned upon. Second, let's be honest here... Would anyone care about some e-lawyered loophole anyway? Of course not. No matter how badly it's worded, the general idea of a Non-Aggresssion Pact is that the alliances, y'know, not attack each other. Most everyone knows that and wouldn't care about some e-lawyered excuse to break the treaty.

-Bama

[Seerow]

I still don't buy that, and here's why: Number one, if that's a loophole, it's the !@#$%^ loophole I've ever seen in my life. It specifically says "if either party BREAKS the treaty..." Last I heard, breaking a treaty was frowned upon. Second, let's be honest here... Would anyone care about some e-lawyered loophole anyway? Of course not. No matter how badly it's worded, the general idea of a Non-Aggresssion Pact is that the alliances, y'know, not attack each other. Most everyone knows that and wouldn't care about some e-lawyered excuse to break the treaty.

-Bama

I'd really say this is a good reason why NAP's aren't signed anymore, and people tend to go with PIATs and the like so they can have other excuses for canceling them.

[Tron Paul]

I still don't buy that, and here's why: Number one, if that's a loophole, it's the !@#$%^ loophole I've ever seen in my life. It specifically says "if either party BREAKS the treaty..." Last I heard, breaking a treaty was frowned upon. Second, let's be honest here... Would anyone care about some e-lawyered loophole anyway? Of course not. No matter how badly it's worded, the general idea of a Non-Aggresssion Pact is that the alliances, y'know, not attack each other. Most everyone knows that and wouldn't care about some e-lawyered excuse to break the treaty.

-Bama

If you were on coldfront during the weekend of April 17th-19th, you would know what he's talking about. For once, Astronaut says something smart.

Everyone and their mother knew TPF and PC would hit eachother during the Karma War, it was just a matter of declaring first. TPF expected to war with Poison Clan and intended to destroy Poison Clan, fortunately for Poison Clan TPF just didn't have any idea what they were stepping into.

[Kilkenny]

argument: PC used e-lawering to break a signed treaty

fact: the only clause in the treaty [NAP] worth following was the clause about respect and friendly communication. That clause was constantly violated by Slayer99 and other members of TPF verbally attacking Poison Clan on these forums. Really the treaty was valueless.

argument: TPF only entered the war by selflessly defending their allies

fact: On the weekend of April 18th-20th everyone and their mother went into #poisonclan and #tpf on coldfront. Hegemony and pals were prepared to strike. I was getting blasted with queries from dozens of alliance leaders [and several PC leaders] about how TPF was going to hit PC. Just before update, the attack plans were discarded. It was merely a blinking contest, but TPF was surely prepared for the attack to come. The only reason TPF decides to play the "selfless defense of allies" card is that they were caught off guard by the brute strength of Poison Clan. the might. In reality, they expected and wished for a war with Poison Clan, and Poison Clan called their bluff.

Oh, and have fun in ZI mhawk. OP made me chuckle, TPF is doomed.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. PC was NEVER a target of any planned attack by us. I know, I made the plans. There were 2 alliances that were going to be targeted, and one of them was the one we attacked.

Rumors don't mean nothing, nothing at all. The only talk about PC getting hit was by the spy we caught in a setup we did. That was all.

*/ to cover all the "but I was told by so and so and he knows", I am the MoW and I make the attack plans based off of what Mhawk tells me, and PC won't it. As far as so and so goes, he ain't it.

[BamaBuc]

I'd really say this is a good reason why NAP's aren't signed anymore, and people tend to go with PIATs and the like so they can have other excuses for canceling them.

I actually think TPF-PC was possibly the only NAP with a point in a very long time. It's stupid for friends to sign NAPs because friends shouldn't have to be told not to kill each other. You may as well just make it a PIAT. The only practical reason for an NAP is for people who can't stand each other to use it to prevent conflict. Though it obviously didn't work in this case.

-Bama