Will NPO's membership revolt?

[Teriethien]

Yeah, some of those comments they made on the trades make it pretty obvious what is going on.

I like this reason: "Operation Magus 4ever"

[raincoat2]

They're not only looking, they're accepting and sending tech. Mass smuggling to prevent it from being lost in the war.

These are just the recent ones I've noticed tonight, browsing through their nations. Sending your tech to hide with your "refusing to come out and fight" folks. Click through their ranks, there's a bunch a stuff like this, heck at least 6 more instances I've seen reported in the last few days of giant daisy chains of movement.

They're not ignoring orders, they're smuggling and hiding. I was one of the folks on our side calling for the % term to be modified or dropped in leiu of something different. I gave up on that tonight after I was shown the movement of pixels into safety. Obviously these people aren't ignoring orders to come out and fight, if everyone under the sun is giving them stuff.

I did not think NPO would be able to give karma a valid reason to make the terms harsher, but they seem to have proved me wrong.

[Azhrarn]

I noticed those tech transfers a few days ago. I think they're: 1) preparing their peace mode nations for those 2 weeks of warfare should they decide to accept terms; and 2) transferring tech from low strength nations to high strength nations, also in preparation for the day they decide to accept terms.

[Sir Paul]

I did not think NPO would be able to give karma a valid reason to make the terms harsher, but they seem to have proved me wrong.

I didn't know that the pre-terms forbade us from sending internal aid.

I noticed those tech transfers a few days ago. I think they're: 1) preparing their peace mode nations for those 2 weeks of warfare should they decide to accept terms; and 2) transferring tech from low strength nations to high strength nations, also in preparation for the day they decide to accept terms.

This one might be onto something...

[TypoNinja]

I like this reason: "Operation Magus 4ever"

6/14/2009 6:48:22 PM

"Hegemony Comeback Fund"

I hope somebody got slapped for that one. Followed by (one would hope) an explanation on the concept of bad PR.

Edited June 22, 2009 by TypoNinja

[Letum]

It's called dumping tech, to prevent the massive NS inflation that tech gives you when you have 0 infra but your 2000 tech is making you face opponents with 3k infra.

And I really don't see why Karma would have any legitimate "problem" with where we send our aid offers when we're at war. It's like saying they have a "problem" when we launch ground attacks.

[hizzy]

It's called dumping tech, to prevent the massive NS inflation that tech gives you when you have 0 infra but your 2000 tech is making you face opponents with 3k infra.

And I really don't see why Karma would have any legitimate "problem" with where we send our aid offers when we're at war. It's like saying they have a "problem" when we launch ground attacks.

Tech inflation allows you to hit nations that have some very expensive infra. I'd go into the explanation but you're a smart fellow, you can figure it out from here I think.

[Dr. Dan]

but you're a smart fellow, you can figure it out from here I think.

I just wanted to use this.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Dr. Dan

[Bob Janova]

I didn't know that the pre-terms forbade us from sending internal aid.

They don't; besides, you've not signed anything – the 'pre-terms' are a statement from Karma not something which restricts NPO. However, these aid transactions give the lie to the idea that these nations are 'refusing to obey orders', but instead show that what we suspected was the case is actually true: the peace mode is a deliberate strategy and NPO are trying to preserve their tech via hiding it in peace mode.

I'd have a lot more respect for you guys if you all just came out and said that, really. If you want to dig in for the long haul it's the right approach. Just stop lying about being unable to come out and say that you simply aren't going to.

[TypoNinja]

It's like saying they have a "problem" when we launch ground attacks.

Actually I do have a problem with your ground attacks, namely not making any.

I've been at war for over a month (short vacation so i lost time) now and getting my casualty count to go up is like pulling teeth. Think you could pass some orders out to buy some troops?

[Ogaden]

They don't; besides, you've not signed anything – the 'pre-terms' are a statement from Karma not something which restricts NPO. However, these aid transactions give the lie to the idea that these nations are 'refusing to obey orders', but instead show that what we suspected was the case is actually true: the peace mode is a deliberate strategy and NPO are trying to preserve their tech via hiding it in peace mode.

I'd have a lot more respect for you guys if you all just came out and said that, really. If you want to dig in for the long haul it's the right approach. Just stop lying about being unable to come out and say that you simply aren't going to.

You are looking for contradictions where there are none. There are three sorts of nations currently in peace mode in NPO:

1) Bankers

2) Nations ordered out of combat indefinitely to preserve strategic assets

3) Nations re-arming for war

The nations that have been the source of much debate, the third group, as far as I know are not ordered to come out and fight the second they go into peace mode, though if you're there for too long people will probably wonder why you haven't come back out. The small minority of the third group who have been there for quite some time and have not responded to queries/orders are most likely dead, which many people here interpreted as me saying all NPO peace mode nations are defying orders, which is complete rubbish.

Many of our nations were very tech-heavy going into the war, and that tech became a liability rather than an asset as these nations were ZI-ed and bill locked. A program was instituted to dump tech and that is what we have been doing. While some individuals within NPO (notably myself) have indeed been calling for a mass-migration of tech to banks, this has not been an official policy, and what you are looking at is a systemic phenomenon rather than a systematic one.

If it were up to me, I would love to say "yes, and we will fight you until the cows come home" but this is not the case.

Looking for reasons to accuse NPO of defying terms is ridiculous considering, if you'll recall, we refused to sign the terms. We continue to fight to preserve the alliance's remaining strength and assets against the depredations of our many enemies, we fight for our future and viability as an alliance. What you ask of us is to surrender our future, and our viability, to your avaricious need for us to have no future and not be viable.

Edited June 22, 2009 by James Dahl

[Bob Janova]

Oh James. Read the thread, and in particular this quote from your leader:

Karma asked that we expel nations who did not comply with the orders to leave peace mode, and at first I considered doing so.

(emphasis mine)

That is contradictory with Bilrow, and now with you, where you say that the people in peace mode are there for a reason and not because they're ignoring orders.

Edit:

which many people here interpreted as me saying all NPO peace mode nations are defying orders

I think you're misinterpreting there. People are concentrating on them, but I don't think (point it out if I missed it) anyone thought you said that. Also, they can't be 'dead' as they have been collecting, otherwise they would have expired by now.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Bob Janova

[Haflinger]

That's not 'refusing to obey an order'. We had one or two nations who were given permission to remain in peace mode due to pre-arranged absences. Considering some of these nations have been in peace mode for 60 days, it's clear that they are looking at their nations.

Nation sitters exist, Bob.

Assuming the goal was that would be an error, 10% of the NPO prewar was around 100 nations, now its more like 60, but 60 nations can be important even in an alliance the size of NPO if its the top 60 nations.

Are you going to seriously claim now that NPO has kept 100 nations in peace mode the whole war?

ZI'ing? Man, I'm really disturbed by ZI'ing becoming standard punishment for everything. I'm not throwing stones specifically at you, but I think for a long time now that punishments =/= the crimes. Personally, I think ZI'ing should be reserved only for nations that prove to be a threat to an alliance (launching attacks, giving out privileged information, things of that nature.) Actively attacking and ZI'ing somebody for the sole purpose of that they didn't do what they were told to do seems a tad bit childish to me.

Singing my song here.

They're not only looking, they're accepting and sending tech. Mass smuggling to prevent it from being lost in the war.

Your links are interesting.

Glancing at a number of those donators, they look to me like they're quite possibly going to abandon their nations.

Although the claim that they're dumping tech to try and de-inflate their nations is also a sensible explanation.

[Bob Janova]

And nations sitters can fight wars. (If I could be bothered I'd go look through the thread and see if that is at all accurate, maybe someone else wants to do that.)

[Erich Ludendorff]

And nations sitters can fight wars. (If I could be bothered I'd go look through the thread and see if that is at all accurate, maybe someone else wants to do that.)

If what is accurate? That nation sitters can fight wars, or that NPO has an inordinate amount of nations being sat?

This first is true, nation sitters can fight. The second is false, NPO does not have a bunch of nations being sat at the moment.

[Midkn1ght]

Are you going to seriously claim now that NPO has kept 100 nations in peace mode the whole war?

I'll go so far to say that, and I'd love to see proof that they haven't, maybe some of Bilrow's shiny charts are called for. So far just randomly clicking and grabbing intell from the nations whose reports were deemed too far out of date has shown over 40 folks who've been in peace since either the start of the war, or days before it. Some of those are the one's getting the tech and money influxes. PM is a tactic, fine, but we just wish they'd stop claiming the folks in PM are folks hiding, folks not listening, and folks simply disarming, when it's not always the case, and they've got PM nations receiving the valued pixels. Hell, it'd help their PR if they showed who's sat out the entire war, and who's fought, since supposedly most of their PM nations have fought.

Your links are interesting. Glancing at a number of those donators, they look to me like they're quite possibly going to abandon their nations. Although the claim that they're dumping tech to try and de-inflate their nations is also a sensible explanation.

I'll give you the first point, but deflating NS is pointless, keep it high. It lets you nuke and hit nations with sky high infra costs. You're going to be ZIed anyway, why not make it hurt.

[Letum]

Tech inflation allows you to hit nations that have some very expensive infra. I'd go into the explanation but you're a smart fellow, you can figure it out from here I think.

Being able to declare war on high-infra nations does not always equate to being able to hit them. If you don't have the requirements to buy planes, don't have nukes, don't have enough troops to be able to win a single ground attack (3k infra vs 100 infra will always make the high infra guy win, regardless of tech), the only thing you can do is sit there and launch CM's. Your nation will pretty much get pounded.

However, these aid transactions give the lie to the idea that these nations are 'refusing to obey orders', but instead show that what we suspected was the case is actually true: the peace mode is a deliberate strategy and NPO are trying to preserve their tech via hiding it in peace mode.

All people animals that are disobeying warmode orders are dogs are in peace mode have four legs.

All people animals that are the targets of tech dumping are horses are in peace mode have four legs.

Therefore, all people disobeying orders dogs are targets of tech dumping horses.

Do this analogy illustrate how little sense your conversion fallacy is making?

[Bilrow]

That is contradictory with Bilrow, and now with you, where you say that the people in peace mode are there for a reason and not because they're ignoring orders.

False. My posts in regards to those in peace mode had nothing to do with concerns brought up by the surrender negotiators in regards to getting 90% of the peace mode nations out as per the terms.

My post, once again like I posted last, was discussing the here and now. We are not under terms currently, so therefore common sense would say my information has nothing to do with orders going out to those when terms are accepted...since...wait for it...we have not accepted terms yet. Hard concept to understand, I know, but I trust you will eventually grasp it.

Edit: Added bolding to hopefully make it easy.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Bilrow

[bakamitai]

I have been wondering, if the NPO government keeps the war up because they wont accept terms presented to them, will there be a point where the membership will revolt? or another government member will stage a coup?

EDIT: forgot the poll

No, and no.

[Azhrarn]

Being able to declare war on high-infra nations does not always equate to being able to hit them. If you don't have the requirements to buy planes, don't have nukes, don't have enough troops to be able to win a single ground attack (3k infra vs 100 infra will always make the high infra guy win, regardless of tech), the only thing you can do is sit there and launch CM's. Your nation will pretty much get pounded.

All people animals that are disobeying warmode orders are dogs are in peace mode have four legs.

All people animals that are the targets of tech dumping are horses are in peace mode have four legs.

Therefore, all people disobeying orders dogs are targets of tech dumping horses.

Do this analogy illustrate how little sense your conversion fallacy is making?

I would say no, since the straw man you've set up is of your own making. The argument being made is this:

NPO: All nations in peace mode are either disobeying orders to fight, or are inactive.

Karma: [pointing to screenshots] If these nations are inactive then why haven't they been deleted? And if they're disobeying orders, then why are they being sent tech through government directed programs?

NPO: "Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia."

NPO: Err, strike that.

NPO: All nations in peace mode are under orders to remain in peace mode. [Courtesy of James Dahl.]

Edited June 23, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Bilrow]

I would say no, since the straw man you've set up is of your own making. The argument being made is this:

NPO: All nations in peace mode are either disobeying orders to fight, or are inactive.

Karma: [pointing to screenshots] If these nations are inactive then why haven't they been deleted? And if they're disobeying orders, then why are they being sent tech through government directed programs?

NPO: "Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia."

NPO: Strike that.

NPO: All nations in peace mode are under orders to remain in peace mode.

Bank nations, while we are in war and not under any terms of surrender, are ordered into peace mode. We have never said:

NPO: All nations in peace mode are either disobeying orders to fight, or are inactive.

The only argument in regards to peace mode had to do with the terms requiring 90% of those in peace mode to come out. Since we are not under terms of surrender as of yet, there have been NO, ZERO, NADA, orders for bank nations to come out of peace mode.

[NoFish]

False. My posts in regards to those in peace mode had nothing to do with concerns brought up by the surrender negotiators in regards to getting 90% of the peace mode nations out as per the terms.

My post, once again like I posted last, was discussing the here and now. We are not under terms currently, so therefore common sense would say my information has nothing to do with orders going out to those when terms are accepted...since...wait for it...we have not accepted terms yet. Hard concept to understand, I know, but I trust you will eventually grasp it.

Edit: Added bolding to hopefully make it easy.

Because clearly you make preparations for accepting terms before you accept them.

De-inflating NS on low-end non-nuclear nations, trying to get tech to peacemode banks for safe keeping, and increasing the tech that 1k tech+ nation have to aid in paying off reps in you intend on accepting terms are all reasonable explanations for this. The second and third seem most likely, in my opinion, but the first shouldn't be ruled out entirely.

[Bilrow]

Because clearly you make preparations for accepting terms before you accept them.

De-inflating NS on low-end non-nuclear nations, trying to get tech to peacemode banks for safe keeping, and increasing the tech that 1k tech+ nation have to aid in paying off reps in you intend on accepting terms are all reasonable explanations for this. The second and third seem most likely, in my opinion, but the first shouldn't be ruled out entirely.

I have no idea as that's nothing I have been in discussions about. I have sent tech out to help nations who were fighting since I am currently ZI'd. But, even if the second and third was going on, where was it stated that was not allowed?

[Azhrarn]

So there are in fact no NPO nations in peace mode against orders, meaning that if the NPO were to accept terms, it would have no problem achieving a 100% compliance rate?

[Bilrow]

So there are in fact no NPO nations in peace mode against orders, meaning that if the NPO were to accept terms, it would have no problem achieving a 100% compliance rate?

That's not my area of expertise, I am not over the bank so I have no clue. I deal with the military side of things and that's what I focus on. I trust the opinion of those who know more than I in regards to that to make that decision of what can't or can be acheived when terms are accepted.