Will NPO's membership revolt?

[Litha Riddle]

Doubt they wouldn't have a problem with it; i also doubt that them or most other people (with a common sense imo) would go to war with the alliance that accepted information over this. Sure it was a dumb thing to do, even dumber to spread it around (that's the main reason it managed to get out in the first place unless Blackstone were playing double agents), but that was no CB material and most people in CN do agree.

Then again NPO did go to war for far less in it's time, the only difference is that you had full backing from most of CN each time. It's a shame people accepted to back you up so many times while you took extreme measures against so many communities because it was the easier way to "weild" your power, but oh well.

So spying is a rubbish reason to go to war these days right? And its a sign of having no common sense to go to war over spying?

Well maybe someone should have mentioned this to both NSO and MK when they declared these wars over spying then:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=53710

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=53889

Both MK and NSO had a perfectly valid reason to attack UBD and CDC. Yet when we suggested one trip to ZI for the two OV nations involved in spying, and that would be the end of it, it was unacceptable.

[Matthew Conrad]

So what your saying is, Bilrow can't go to the government of NPO (which he is supposedly part of) and find someone who does know the security traits and then prove to us all that NPO truly can find whoever took it? Public Forum or not it's still part of their forum and would still work towards proving a point so you are either stupid, thick as a brick or got dropped at birth or something.

Yeah, I really didn't know if he knew what he was responding to. His post is pretty lacking in some reading comprehension.

[F15pilotX]

So what your saying is, Bilrow can't go to the government of NPO (which he is supposedly part of) and find someone who does know the security traits and then prove to us all that NPO truly can find whoever took it? Public Forum or not it's still part of their forum and would still work towards proving a point so you are either stupid, thick as a brick or got dropped at birth or something.

Why does he need to prove anything to anyone? It doesn't matter if he proves it or not and it is purely a waste of his time.

Palpatine made a valid point, and there is absolutely no reason for you to ad hominem him just because you disagree with him.

Edited June 19, 2009 by F15pilotX

[neneko]

Every time I hear it, I laugh at the idiocy of it all, that somehow you have convinced the world of technology that DOES NOT EXIST ... well at least not in a jpeg or png, gif I'll give ya that one, however it would have to be put in after creation.

Actually these systems do infact exist and are pretty common.

Not sure if this is necesary but just in case

[OOC]

You've seen those pics that some people use as sigs sometimes that show you your ip or what country you are in or something like that? That's just a script that put a few variables into a pic as you might know. This combined with some imagination works wonders as a anti-spy system. You put a script like that as avatar or sig and let it show a number based on what user is viewing it (often color coded to make it less noticable than numbers) then by looking at that pic from a screen you can see who took it. Another lesser refined system is to let the board add a number after each post based on wich user that is viewing it. Works the same way but is alot easier to notice.

I'm not sure what system NPO uses but those are examples of anti-spy systems I know is being used on a few boards.

[/OOC]

[Matthew Conrad]

Why does he need to prove anything to anyone? It doesn't matter if he proves it or not and it is purely a waste of his time.

Palpatine made a valid point, and there is absolutely no reason for you to ad hominem him just because you disagree with him.

Palpatine was mainly jumping on your post in an attempt to get in a shot at the poster you quoted. Bilrow doesn't have to answer, but the person had a legitimate question in an attempt to test your rumored forum security feature. Unless Palpatine knows for a fact that you guys either don't have such a feature (where Bilrow admits he doesn't know if it actually exists or not) or that it's configured to only certain sections of the forum, he's in all honesty speaking out of his $@!. He shows a disturbing understanding of the post he was trying to attack and definitely made the first ad hominem attack. So, if anything, you should call him out too if you're going to call daggarz post an ad hominem attack.

[uaciaut]

So spying is a rubbish reason to go to war these days right? And its a sign of having no common sense to go to war over spying?

Well maybe someone should have mentioned this to both NSO and MK when they declared these wars over spying then:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=53710

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=53889

Both MK and NSO had a perfectly valid reason to attack UBD and CDC. Yet when we suggested one trip to ZI for the two OV nations involved in spying, and that would be the end of it, it was unacceptable.

Except they actually did actively spy, they didn't accept info from someone else and then declare while they were effectively doing the same thing they accused the "spies" of. There's a huge difference between the cases and you're really grasping for straws if you're trying to say they are same.

[Palpatine001]

So what your saying is, Bilrow can't go to the government of NPO (which he is supposedly part of) and find someone who does know the security traits and then prove to us all that NPO truly can find whoever took it? Public Forum or not it's still part of their forum and would still work towards proving a point so you are either stupid, thick as a brick or got dropped at birth or something.

A different matter and different section of conversation.

I am referring to Freelancers failed attempt of proving a point by posting a public forum piece and going OOOOO look what I have - meh noobish

Now if he posted something from inside NPO like the Moo recipe for war then I would be in shock and awe of such a breach of security.

So please my dear, to save the embarrassment upon yourself please do not confuse the two conversations that seem to be running in here.

First being the past security leak and finding out who did it although that is the past and if we did find the twit it is not going change the course of things apart from a good yelling match

Second, Freelancers pathetic attempt at highlighting something of which I stand by my statement

Edit: seems I poured fuel on this one - ah well go guns blazing now

Edited June 19, 2009 by Palpatine001

[daggarz]

Why does he need to prove anything to anyone? It doesn't matter if he proves it or not and it is purely a waste of his time.

Palpatine made a valid point, and there is absolutely no reason for you to ad hominem him just because you disagree with him.

Bilrow shouldn't make public claims unless he is willing to back them up. And if he isn't then we have every right to call him out on it.

Edit to respond to Palpatine:

He wasn't trying to prove he had secret SS only that he wanted Bilrow to show that he could infact trace an image of a forum as he says. I'm not sure what thread your reading, but its different to this one.

Edited June 19, 2009 by daggarz

[Litha Riddle]

Except they actually did actively spy, they didn't accept info from someone else and then declare while they were effectively doing the same thing they accused the "spies" of. There's a huge difference between the cases and you're really grasping for straws if you're trying to say they are same.

If OV were not actively spying, why did they not come straight to us with those screen shots? If they were just innocently handed those links without asking for them, why didn't they come to us and warn us that we had private information being passed around? The fact that they kept them secret implicates them in the act of spying.

If someone offered you stolen goods, you would hand those goods into the police to avoid being prosecuted along with the thief for handling stolen goods.

And having allies warn us of someone stealing private information is not akin to spying.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Litha Riddle

[Sigrun Vapneir]

And having allies warn us of someone stealing private information is not akin to spying.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the treaty announcement where NPO and Blackstone Collusion admitted to being allies, could I get a link?

Edited June 19, 2009 by Sigrun Vapneir

[Ardus]

If OV were not actively spying, why did they not come straight to us with those screen shots? If they were just innocently handed those links without asking for them, why didn't they come to us and warn us that we had private information being passed around? The fact that they kept them secret implicates them in the act of spying.

If someone offered you stolen goods, you would hand those goods into the police to avoid being prosecuted along with the thief for handling stolen goods.

And having allies warn us of someone stealing private information is not akin to spying.

Except this is not Pacifica's operating procedure, either. Given information of a perceived adversaries forums, NPO would accept it and either sit on it or distribute it to close allies if deemed an ingredient for political maneuvering or warfare; it wouldn't just approach said alliance and say "hey you've got a spy" unless mandated to by signed treaty, and even then not in every circumstance.

That said, I feel we may be off-topic. Perhaps we should return to mulling over whether NPO general membership intends to stage protests. I voted no--there will be no coups. Pacificans can (and many do) show their displeasure with alliance policies by voting with their feet.

[Mathias]

No. Regardless of what side of the war you are on, it is impossible to deny the unity that Pacifica and her members have. Obviously this is due to brainwashing, but it exists nonetheless.

[Sarai]

A derailment of massive proportions has happened yet again. The tough statements posed by Fushun earlier have been ignored in favor of what is percieved as easier "OMG, ANTI-SPY features", or "Blah, DOE was invalid!" type topics that have been debated to death elsewhere.

Please, if you wanted to get to know Pacifican membership you wouldn't just post and post and post in order to antagonise them. Pacificans want to engage in a non-arrogant way with the outside world, but it's damn heard when everyone derails threads back to other stuff.

I am amused by those who are talking about how free and open discussion in NPO is. When I dared to suggest that NPO was partially responsible for the deterioration in relations with NpO (though I had pointed out several times, including in that post, that NpO was the main culprit; the left reason I NpO for NPO was Sponge's actions) I was mocked by an IO as well a couple other random Pacificans and received a message telling me to "go suck sponge's dick somewhere else" from someone who was senior member and a high ranked milcom official (and various other less vulgar but almost as insulting messages). NPO was only open in the sense that you could describe in great detail just how much you loved Moo and just how evil/stupid/cowardly all past, present and future enemies of NPO were.

I suggested the same thing and was not shouted at or bullied. It's worrying if someone was that rude to you. When I was treated badly by someone senior I took it up the chain of command and it was sorted out. You should have tried the same but I suspect you either didn't and quit or didn't care enough at the time but now care enough to post it on the <OOC OWF> as propeganda.

The NPO knows that we did our share of things that didn't help the relationship with NpO and vice-versa. The drop in relationship was one of the saddest things for many of our members and this was discussed with frankness and openess.

Also, just so I can lay suspicious mind at rest, do you have the name of the person who told you to "suck"? Perhaps a screenshot or something?

Edited June 19, 2009 by Sarai

[Erich Ludendorff]

No. Regardless of what side of the war you are on, it is impossible to deny the unity that Pacifica and her members have. Obviously this is due to brainwashing, but it exists nonetheless.

You do realize that nearly 25% of their membership has left, right? When peace is declared, and people can leave without being called deserters, how many more fair-weather members will follow suit?

[Jack Diorno]

Anyone who thinks NPO members won't revolt and overthrow Moo and the IO's doesn't know anything about Pacifica. They will surely band together in this time of need and take control of the alliance themselves.

EDIT: added these guys for emphasis

Edited June 19, 2009 by jack diorno

[Litha Riddle]

The NPO knows that we did our share of things that didn't help the relationship with NpO and vice-versa. The drop in relationship was one of the saddest things for many of our members and this was discussed with frankness and openess.

Exactly this.

Mock and laugh at me all you wish, but I will always mourn the day our relationship became what it is now.

[sethb]

And having allies warn us of someone stealing private information is not akin to spying.

But how did your allies get that information, and did you not look at screenshots from OV's board?

[Freelancer]

LOTS OF JEBBERISH

Well, Well, what a response!! I do find that fascinating coming from a member of GATO, I guess its true what they say about masters and pets..

The point still remains if NPO has this new secret forum technology that embeds an image into a screen shot taken from an independent PC, I wanna see it, prove it !! Because if it was true, which it ain't !! Not only would I have heard about it, I'd be in on the marketing.

THIS !!!!

Bilrow shouldn't make public claims unless he is willing to back them up. And if he isn't then we have every right to call him out on it.

Edit to respond to Palpatine:

He wasn't trying to prove he had secret SS only that he wanted Bilrow to show that he could infact trace an image of a forum as he says. I'm not sure what thread your reading, but its different to this one.

Actually these systems do infact exist and are pretty common.

Not sure if this is necessary but just in case

[OOC]

You've seen those pics that some people use as sigs sometimes that show you your ip or what country you are in or something like that? That's just a script that put a few variables into a pic as you might know. This combined with some imagination works wonders as a anti-spy system. You put a script like that as avatar or sig and let it show a number based on what user is viewing it (often color coded to make it less noticable than numbers) then by looking at that pic from a screen you can see who took it. Another lesser refined system is to let the board add a number after each post based on wich user that is viewing it. Works the same way but is alot easier to notice.

I'm not sure what system NPO uses but those are examples of anti-spy systems I know is being used on a few boards.

[/OOC]

What you are speaking of is a server side generated script which then outputs a .gif image, there is NO I repeat NO current way for any alliance to tell who took a screen shot by some magical embedded image on there board..

So all you covert agents out there who bring us all this wonderfull drama, fear not the only way you get caught is being snitched out, which brings us to another lesson.. "Never trust anyone"

Bottom Line.. This rumor started when Vox was on a rampage, it spread faster than the aids virus in gay whorehouse, it was designed for one purpose, an overt attempt to achieve security by obscurity...

Have a nice day, it appears we will have no winner of my 50 million.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Freelancer

[A Soviet Attack]

If OV were not actively spying, why did they not come straight to us with those screen shots? If they were just innocently handed those links without asking for them, why didn't they come to us and warn us that we had private information being passed around? The fact that they kept them secret implicates them in the act of spying.

If someone offered you stolen goods, you would hand those goods into the police to avoid being prosecuted along with the thief for handling stolen goods.

And having allies warn us of someone stealing private information is not akin to spying.

You know as well as I do that every alliance accepts information

I might have to go from thread to thread reminding NPO members of this

[jer]

There is a difference between accepting information critical to the security of your alliance and accepting information that you have no business knowing.

Argue that all you want.

I will argue that your statements on this will all essentially amount to this: 'it is fair and absolutely justified and legitimate for the NPO to accept information, but if anyone else does it they are bang out of order and must be punished'.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Aimee Mann

[Bob Janova]

You know as well as I do that every alliance accepts information

I might have to go from thread to thread reminding NPO members of this

Quite. And no, NPO does not go to the alliance in question when it receives information about them, unless they think they can use the information they received to threaten that alliance with war.

There was a totally valid CB against Blackstone over actively acquiring information from NPO. The attempt to paint it as a CB against OV was utterly ridiculous when you (or TPF or both) had accepted screenshots and logs from private areas of OV boards/IRC and were using them right there in the conversation about OV accepting screenshots. The fact that some of you are still coming in here are claiming the CB was valid is a perfect example of the manipulation of opinion and being out of touch with the rest of the world that I was talking about earlier.

[Gobb]

Brutal Psychoticus' thread shows nicely why a revolt isn't going to happen. Pacifican grunts are too blind.

[HeinousOne]

Havn't yet seen a single NPO rep come here saying they have taken sensitive information to the alliance it is about everytime whenever they have such brought to them.

Come on guys.....say it. Otherwise judging an alliance for something that you do not do yourselves is outright hypocrisy and just another reason why you guys are out of touch with the world and get attacked left and right when you show up here.

[Francesca]

Who cares......

[HeinousOne]

Who cares......

You are saying that twelve pages in?