Bilrow Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 (edited) Even if they disobey orders to leave peacemode? (not that i think ZI for disobeying such orders is warranted) Orders haven't been given for them (bank nations) to come out of peacemode, so speculating on what ifs is not my job. I just am the keeper of the information. Edited June 21, 2009 by Bilrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teriethien Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Orders haven't been given for them to come out of peacemode, so speculating on what ifs is not my job. I just am the keeper of the information. Well, I thought the discussion was about a hypothetical case of how the NPO would go about complying with the peace terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sileath Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Orders haven't been given for them to come out of peacemode, so speculating on what ifs is not my job. I just am the keeper of the information. The accepter of the spy information? Yeah, that's what I thought. NPO is a cult where you all have so much dirt on each other that none of you can leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilrow Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Well, I thought the discussion was about a hypothetical case of how the NPO would go about complying with the peace terms. Well actually the discussion is: I have been wondering, if the NPO government keeps the war up because they wont accept terms presented to them, will there be a point where the membership will revolt? or another government member will stage a coup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilrow Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 The accepter of the spy information? Yeah, that's what I thought.NPO is a cult where you all have so much dirt on each other that none of you can leave. What are you mumbling about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teriethien Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Well actually the discussion is: 16 pages ago, maybe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erich Ludendorff Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Orders haven't been given for them (bank nations) to come out of peacemode, so speculating on what ifs is not my job. I just am the keeper of the information. The confusion is probably created by your emperor's statement in regards to the impossibilities of exiting of peace mode: Karma asked that we expel nations who did not comply with the orders to leave peace mode, and at first I considered doing so. But on second thought, after seeing the nations who are not in compliance, many of them are loyal, hardworking nations who have been with us for years. The New Pacific Order is not willing to expel those comrades who did not respond to that order that was given weeks ago.......... More confusion is created by his lack of understanding of the terms "loyal" and "comrades". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Haflinger, this is not the same as asking an alliance to expel government members who have the 'wrong' opinions. Nations which refuse to follow in orders in wartime, in any alliance, should be kicked and ZI'd, usually by their own alliance, but in this case NPO might wish to ask others to enforce it since they are otherwise occupied. In addition, if the peace terms mandate proportions of nations in war mode, these nations (if not kicked) are actually stopping all their comrades getting peace. Bilrow, you need to get your stories straight. Moo and Cortath have already stated that some nations are in peace mode because they refuse to come out. That could well be a lie, but we are giving you the benefit of the doubt and showing how you should deal with those cowards and fulfil the peace terms. If it is a lie and they are simply ordered to lie low, then compliance is within your milcom's reach – simply send the order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 The terms aren't targeting the 80% who are fighting, the terms are targeting that 20% who never fought at all. Staggers, or lack there of, have little to do with it, many of those nations were in peace mode before the war started and have remained there since. No, they're not. The 20% who never fought at all is not 20% of the NPO, it's 20% of the nations currently in peace mode, which is less than 10% of the NPO's nations. If the goal was to get 90% of the NPO to fight, then that has already been achieved. Haflinger, this is not the same as asking an alliance to expel government members who have the 'wrong' opinions. Nations which refuse to follow in orders in wartime, in any alliance, should be kicked and ZI'd, usually by their own alliance, but in this case NPO might wish to ask others to enforce it since they are otherwise occupied. In addition, if the peace terms mandate proportions of nations in war mode, these nations (if not kicked) are actually stopping all their comrades getting peace. Actually, a number of alliances in this war have expressly granted permission to their members to go to peace mode, for both OOC and IC reasons. The most common OOC reason is "because I planned to go on vacation." Would Grämlins boot and ZI someone for refusing to go to war because of a pre-arranged OOC vacation? Bilrow, you need to get your stories straight. Moo and Cortath have already stated that some nations are in peace mode because they refuse to come out. That could well be a lie, but we are giving you the benefit of the doubt and showing how you should deal with those cowards and fulfil the peace terms. If it is a lie and they are simply ordered to lie low, then compliance is within your milcom's reach – simply send the order. His numbers are consistent with Moo and Cortath's statements. He's just giving the numbers of how many nations have stayed inside peace mode; he's not talking about how many of them were banks (ordered to stay in peace) and how many were nations who didn't respond to the order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dune Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 They didn't do the spying, they are innocent, think twice before you pick on small alliances for your own pleasure. Read again; 17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[blackstone]> I got that screenie for you It implies that the screenshot was asked for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Would Grämlins boot and ZI someone for refusing to go to war because of a pre-arranged OOC vacation? That's not 'refusing to obey an order'. We had one or two nations who were given permission to remain in peace mode due to pre-arranged absences. Considering some of these nations have been in peace mode for 60 days, it's clear that they are looking at their nations. A nation who read a message asking them to fight, giving them targets, and refused to do so? I would expect that nation would be kicked, yes. Fortunately we don't have those. Of course, this is all moot because it's almost certain that NPO are lying about their inability to get nations out of peace, they are simply choosing not to do so in the hope that the alliances fighting them will give in and allow them to keep their high level nations. It's not about numbers, it's about Bilrow claiming that nations staying in peace mode against orders is 'hypothetical', when Moo said 'Karma asked that we expel nations who did not comply with the orders to leave peace mode'. (Cortath used the same argument in the discussion about how NPO could pay its reps.) Those two statements are completely contradictory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hizzy Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 It implies that the screenshot was asked for. Seriously, nobody cares. Where did YOU (NPO, TPF, TORN, whoever) get the intel that OV accepted a screenshot? Honestly you guys keep yammering on about "awww boo-hoo but see they accepted screenshots wAAAAAAAAAAA" but are completely ignoring the other half of the issue, which is how exactly you came to the discovery yourself. Were you... oh, I don't know... spying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Metternich Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 (edited) It is already known that NPO accepted other people's screenshots, so its pretty obvious that NPO has hipocrits. I'm sure other alliances do as well. Oh, and yes, they were spying. Edited June 21, 2009 by Famzy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TypoNinja Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 No, they're not.The 20% who never fought at all is not 20% of the NPO, it's 20% of the nations currently in peace mode, which is less than 10% of the NPO's nations. If the goal was to get 90% of the NPO to fight, then that has already been achieved. Assuming the goal was that would be an error, 10% of the NPO prewar was around 100 nations, now its more like 60, but 60 nations can be important even in an alliance the size of NPO if its the top 60 nations. No its a matter of math, if we say only 70% has to come out than theres enough room for them to deliberately stay in peace mode and not fight, if we say 90% then the majority have to come out, and if we see exactly 90% come out but none of the top ten we know the NPO lied about compliance. Knowing if the NPO has been dealing in bad faith or not this whole time is important information. Terms can be crafted to provide more information and advantage than just what the term it self covered, how someone acts when fulfilling a term is also informative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilrow Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 It's not about numbers, it's about Bilrow claiming that nations staying in peace mode against orders is 'hypothetical', when Moo said 'Karma asked that we expel nations who did not comply with the orders to leave peace mode'. (Cortath used the same argument in the discussion about how NPO could pay its reps.) Those two statements are completely contradictory. My numbers had nothing to do with peace mode against orders, yet to counter the argument that we had tons of nations hiding in peace mode. Strictly statistics of the here and now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teriethien Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Read again;It implies that the screenshot was asked for. That certainly makes attacking in the middle of negotiations justified. Although, didn't this horse die 2 months ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilrow Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 (edited) That certainly makes attacking in the middle of negotiations justified. Although, didn't this horse die 2 months ago "Attacking during the middle of negotiations" looks good for propganda but is further from the truth since OV did not accept the last offer. There was no declaration in the middle of peacetalks; it took me over 30 minutes to reconnect into irc—no one requested another representative from the NPO in there, which left no one from the NPO present. Bigwoody was present and when I asked him he said they were not ongoing. OV had refused our last offer; as for the source of the intel they need to deal with mhawk for that and they knew that. I was very clear with Crymson that if they did not accept the last offer, which was a week's worth of wars on sethb, that it was unacceptable. Edited June 21, 2009 by Bilrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrie Melodies Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 (edited) Just thought I would throw this out in regards to NPO and war time behavior, NPO went !@#$% when some of their members left to join NSO upon our founding, there was great debate within NPO about attacking and ZI'ing these members because they "deserted during war time" even though not a single member who left could have fought in that war. For NPO to even remotely claim they tolerate any kind of disobedience is wrong. Standard disclaimer: I do not support Karma or its demand reparations, rather I support truth. Edited June 21, 2009 by Merrie Melodies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branimir Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 (edited) NPO went !@#$% when some of their members left to join NSO "!@#$%" is such a strong word. Maybe 95% not giving a crap and 5% asking some valid questions would be more precise. At the same time, NSO is though completely irrelevant into relations to this thread and its topic matter so this off topicness will not be engaged more by me. Found the thread funny, shows a lack of understanding of the Order and our position in this war. Not strange, 90% of "political experts" here dont know !@#$. But oh boy are they quick to call others drones, unknowing, etc. Edited June 21, 2009 by Branimir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King DrunkWino Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Nations which refuse to follow in orders in wartime, in any alliance, should be kicked and ZI'd... Kick 'em out? I think that kinda depends on individual circumstances (which would probably be OOC things that make it difficult to impossible to do what they'd need to do on a daily basis to fight a war,) but in most cases it would be an appropriate punishment. ZI'ing? Man, I'm really disturbed by ZI'ing becoming standard punishment for everything. I'm not throwing stones specifically at you, but I think for a long time now that punishments =/= the crimes. Personally, I think ZI'ing should be reserved only for nations that prove to be a threat to an alliance (launching attacks, giving out privileged information, things of that nature.) Actively attacking and ZI'ing somebody for the sole purpose of that they didn't do what they were told to do seems a tad bit childish to me. OOC: and from a purely OOC standpoint, it's not exactly encouraging to new players to the game if one of their first experiences is getting blown up cause they didn't jump when they're told to. For goodness sakes, just kick 'em out and if they decide to be a problem, then satisfy your bloodlust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cortath Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Just thought I would throw this out in regards to NPO and war time behavior, NPO went !@#$% when some of their members left to join NSO upon our founding, there was great debate within NPO about attacking and ZI'ing these members because they "deserted during war time" even though not a single member who left could have fought in that war.For NPO to even remotely claim they tolerate any kind of disobedience is wrong. Standard disclaimer: I do not support Karma or its demand reparations, rather I support truth. There are no bats in the New Pacific Order. And if there were, we would not permit them to !@#$. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raincoat2 Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 There are no bats in the New Pacific Order. And if there were, we would not permit them to !@#$. So then how do you explain what James said about members being ordered to get out of peace mode with the fact that members are not getting out of peace mode? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cortath Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 So then how do you explain what James said about members being ordered to get out of peace mode with the fact that members are not getting out of peace mode? I'm not sure what this has to do with bats, or their guano. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midkn1ght Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 That's not 'refusing to obey an order'. We had one or two nations who were given permission to remain in peace mode due to pre-arranged absences. Considering some of these nations have been in peace mode for 60 days, it's clear that they are looking at their nations. They're not only looking, they're accepting and sending tech. Mass smuggling to prevent it from being lost in the war. http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp...&Extended=1http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp...&Extended=1 http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp...&Extended=1 http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp...&Extended=1 These are just the recent ones I've noticed tonight, browsing through their nations. Sending your tech to hide with your "refusing to come out and fight" folks. Click through their ranks, there's a bunch a stuff like this, heck at least 6 more instances I've seen reported in the last few days of giant daisy chains of movement. They're not ignoring orders, they're smuggling and hiding. I was one of the folks on our side calling for the % term to be modified or dropped in leiu of something different. I gave up on that tonight after I was shown the movement of pixels into safety. Obviously these people aren't ignoring orders to come out and fight, if everyone under the sun is giving them stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeinousOne Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 They're not only looking, they're accepting and sending tech. Mass smuggling to prevent it from being lost in the war.These are just the recent ones I've noticed tonight, browsing through their nations. Sending your tech to hide with your "refusing to come out and fight" folks. Click through their ranks, there's a bunch a stuff like this, heck at least 6 more instances I've seen reported in the last few days of giant daisy chains of movement. They're not ignoring orders, they're smuggling and hiding. I was one of the folks on our side calling for the % term to be modified or dropped in leiu of something different. I gave up on that tonight after I was shown the movement of pixels into safety. Obviously these people aren't ignoring orders to come out and fight, if everyone under the sun is giving them stuff. Yeah, some of those comments they made on the trades make it pretty obvious what is going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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