The Ultimate 747 Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Karma continues to display how little they are concerned with bringing peace and stability to Planet Bob in favor of complete and total obliteration of an alliance they have already defeated. I think the following lines from The Patriot pretty much sum up their attitude (HINT: Karma is Cornwallis): O'Hara: But my lord, you've taken the field! Cornwallis: Now we shall take their spirits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cairna Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) I almost wrote an entire lengthy post on the idiocy of the statement "Karma is Hegemony but worse", but then I realized that both sides to this debate have already taken their position and aforementioned positions are based on personal interest and allegiances, so I don't know why I'd waste time making this post. The difference I would say, though I hate to be affiliated at all with "Karma" is that it is a loosely made coalition with a purpose, that purpose is revenge. Any naysayers that pretend some sort of cosmic balance are lying to themselves, but the revenge, at the end of the day is well deserved. Had Karma formed a bloc prior to this war, I might be worried about the formation of some sort of New World Order. One of the main differences, is that those at the heart of Karma aren't guilty of the same sins. Mushroom Kingdom, Greenland Republic, CnG, that whole side has been fighting for this for a while, they're not simple profiteers. I have mixed feelings on the matter, but at the end of the day I don't believe "Karma" can become "Hegemony" or just as bad, because it was formed with the simple purpose of revenge. Anything that happens as a result of this war will not be an extension of "Karma". But rest assure, the results of this war were well deserved, even if far too many got off easily. That's the nature of the beast. As I said, this post won't really change anybody's mind. We all have our positions, most of what goes on on these forums is futile. If you have your mind changed by the adversary, you don't deserve to be the one to defend your point of view in the first place. Edited June 13, 2009 by Cairna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TypoNinja Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Karma continues to display how little they are concerned with bringing peace and stability to Planet Bob in favor of complete and total obliteration of an alliance they have already defeated. I think the following lines from The Patriot pretty much sum up their attitude (HINT: Karma is Cornwallis):O'Hara: But my lord, you've taken the field! Cornwallis: Now we shall take their spirits. Right, if we wanted to obliterate them we wouldn't have offered terms at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterShadow Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 why not quit after helping pay the reps off? Lets say another 2 weeks of war put me in bill lock. With the bank nations now being in a state of war and needing to conserve the cash for themselves how could I? Because in another 2 weeks of war I will be below the 1000 tech threshold then what? I have not gone to peace at all in this war Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens of the desert Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I was going to post but I think that everything has been said in the past 100 pages. You will probably see me quitting shortly enough and my nation probably has a billion worth of wonders so would you take that off the reps? Clearly I am one of the "feared" recovery nations. I have all but 1 or 2 economic wonder. You didn't actually think that would work, did you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 just to note, previous to the war, Polar's gov did undergo changes. yes some old names were still there but not many. Polar even had a new Emperor. Yeah... 'twas a lame attempt at either sarcasm or irony. After reading 90 pages today it was about all I could muster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Lets say another 2 weeks of war put me in bill lock. With the bank nations now being in a state of war and needing to conserve the cash for themselves how could I? Because in another 2 weeks of war I will be below the 1000 tech threshold then what?I have not gone to peace at all in this war gotcha. i thought you was a banking nation due to stating you were a recovery nation Karma was worried bout. my bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Lowe Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Wow NPO. These terms are truly disgusting. I feel bad for you guys. So, here - Moo. I got you a present...... ...It's my dick in a box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingzog Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I do like how the NPO arguments began with "outrageous terms" and have now ended up, if I adjudge correctly, as "we are basically an alliance of ghosts and people who can't follow orders." The NPO has managed to reach GGA levels of stupidity. However, since they're a 'better' alliance, they managed to do so in one thread. Impressive. Realy, it's like watching the clown car unload at the circus. God bless the end of radio silence! btw, Haflinger, I'm pretty sure the NPO owes you a set of kneepads. Also.... Where's my damn letter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterShadow Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Also I do not blame Londo as "the greedy bad man" although he is not simply a messenger, I still say the saying keeps pace. Jens, since you are not directly involved in this war and merely an onlooker I ask that, even though you are allowed to speak your mind as you please, do not use wording such that looks like you have a significant say in the matter. It was merely a question as obviously not having me as part of NPO would hurt them possibly for an indefinite amount of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I think most of us can agree that having 90% and up of your alliance active at all times is an utopian expectation. Active as in checking their nations every day or two and able to respond to an order to hit war mode to save their alliance? No, no I don't agree with that at all. I can't remember a time when more than 10% of Grämlins was away at the same time. I'm afraid that I simply don't believe that over 10% of your alliance is that inactive. As for Cortath's 'maths', it is the usual propaganda and only loosely grounded in fact. Let's take it to pieces since some people seem to be parading it as unadulterated truth and claiming it has not been responded to, whereas in fact it is such rubbish as to be hardly worth responding to. Getting to WarBefore we get those lovely 2 weeks of peace mode, we have to get 90% of our nations above 4K infra out of PM, and 90% of our total alliance out of PM. That means we can get 7 nations in PM above 4K infra, and about 70 nations alliance-wide still in PM. This is mid-June. The New Pacific Order presently has orders for nations to be cycling in and out of peace mode as needed to lose nuclear anarchy. Many nations aren't following those Orders. Why? [OOC]Probably RL. Sometimes those of us who are able to up late at night posting on these forums forget that a lot of people are not able to engage in a war the way we want them to. It's June, people. Most schools are ending. Most colleges are ended/ending. Kids are starting summer jobs. Let's face it, most of the CN user base is in school or young and working.[/ooc] Achieving a 90% war mode rate is ridiculous. Karma's demand that we expel loyal members, some of whom have been around for years, who might be a little busy right now, is ridiculous. As previously mentioned, this is grade A lies. There is no way that over 10% of the alliance is really away, particularly considering the war has been going on for well over 20 days (so they'd have deleted if they were away for the whole time they've been in PM). A significant point to consider also, is the number of ghosts in our alliance. While normally we are very good at removing ghosts, they're obviously not a top military priority. Ghosts frequently stay in the NPO, because most alliances are/were afraid to attack an NPO nation, even if it does appear to be a ghost. With an alliance as ridden with ghosts as we are, and that's not even beginning to consider any foul play that may be afoot, we have a lot of PM nations as well. A list of ghosts can be provided to Karma, these nations would not count against the 10%, and they would even help you to enforce their removal (if/when they came out of PM, naturally). This is only an issue if you are lying and they are not really 'ghosts'. The same is true for nations which refuse to come out, these are traitors and cowards, and should be expelled and their names passed to Karma for monitoring. Then comes two weeks of war for PM nations. Except it won't be just two weeks of war. Many of our nations will be in war much longer because as they get out of peace mode, there will be a lag from the time they get out, to when the "magic numbers" of 90% are hit. If you provide the true member list, and set a date for the two weeks to start and PM that to all your members, you should be able to get 90% compliance within at worst 2 or 3 days. That means a limit of 15 or 16 days for the early leavers. Assuming a single attacker at a high NS, with all the improvements and wonders such a nation should have, etc., etc., these are the damage estimates for such a war:Nukes: 240 infra/day Ground: 64 infra/day CM: 32 infra/day Aircraft 64 infra/day. Well, not all your nations will be in range of such nations (the tech modifier you have used here is 6000 tech, or 3000+WRC), but okay, let's roll with that, after pointing out that the damage you give is on the high side of what is likely. The infra damage is actually pretty irrelevant, as you only need $200m to rebuild to 4999 from zero, and that's all you need to be able to bank – and your high tier nations all have enough to easily manage 14 days and have $200m left over. You'll only be taking ground attack damage if you're an idiot (when 1v3 in a hopeless war you should turtle), and aircraft won't get through every time, so a better estimate per day would be: Nukes: 240/day (except first day): 3120 CM: 32/day/attacker: 1344 Aircraft: 40/day/attacker (~60% success rate): 1680 Defeat alert: 64/day: 896 Total 7040 infra Similar modifications need to be made for tech, making 1670 tech lost. Land is irrelevant anyway. Now, some people are going to claim "massive war chests." It ain't there people. 7 weeks of nuclear war, plus stints in PM, or for our banks, 7 weeks in PM, hurts those warchests a lot, even billion dollar warchests. Yes, some nations might have billion dollar warchests at the end of the war, but the catch has never been the size of the warchest, but how much you can send out. 18M/cycle just doesn't even take out a chunk of these types of reparations. Firstly, yes it is there. Spy reports don't lie, and I trust the MKers in this thread to be telling the truth there more than I do you. And secondly, the point is not to pay the reps out of warchest, but to have a large enough warchest ($200m is all that is needed) to build up to the infra level where you can pay off reps easily. At 5k with a stack of eco improvements, you net $5m a day – easily enough to send $18m a cycle, enough even to send $18m+300 tech a cycle. And even without a warchest, nations with that many improvements can do a lot with $30m of rebuilding aid and a month or two of organic growth. Look at IRON's first page to see how easy it is. 1. It assumes all 180 nations are active. Really, with programs like these, you can't expect much better than 50-60% activity. You know how I know? I asked the MK guys during negotiations how many nations paid off their tech reps, and it was far less than that percentage as a percentage of their alliance.2. It assumes that every single slot will always be used, always. That's just ridiculous. There are very few nations on the Planet that manage that have all 4/5/6 slots filled every day, and we're no different. You lose efficiency from that. 3. It assumes that all these nations will have money with which to purchase and send tech, or just plain good ol' money lying around to send to Karma. Right now, we literally have 47 nations at ZI. I don't mean people with 100 infra, I mean people with 0.00 infrastructure. We have 402 members under 200 infrastructure, 511 under 500. You can look up the stats for yourselves, but we don't have nations who can either produce money or tech to send as reparations, particularly not when the Bank, which possibly could be used to fund a rebuilding/reparations effort, will have been destroyed by war. 1. I believe 50-60% is the range used by MK in determining that you should have no problem paying. But the high tech nations are the more concerned with nation building, they are likely to be well above average in terms of activity. 2. If you ordered them to, and sent messages to that effect for particular dates, and were given targets, then it is not ridiculous. Most nations don't have full slot usage because of the issues with finding dealers, not because they cannot send on the right day. 3. Many of your nations, as already discussed, have the money to bounce straight back to banking levels. The others retain economic improvements and wonders and with a bank-funded kick start of $15-30m would be able to do so quickly. Slots have explicitly been left for you to rebuild if you so wish. These are not the same as day-old nations, they have much improved economies, and would regrow rapidly. 4. Most Karma estimates I've seen presented only looked at paying off the 300K, or the 7B, but but not both at once. It would be a monumental task to do either one of them, but it's entirely a different story to do both, particularly given that they both come from different sources due to the 1K+ tech restriction on where the 300K tech has to come from. The 1k tech restriction applies to nations at the start, these nations could give away down to 0 and then start rebuilding and sending it, making the tech very cheap and able to be sent at $3m/50. What was presented was not possible in anything less than a year at the best, most likely a year and a half. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperion321 Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) what the hell? 109 110 pages in one day? you all do realize it's Saturday...in summer...right? Edited June 13, 2009 by Hyperion321 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterShadow Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 gotcha. i thought you was a banking nation due to stating you were a recovery nation Karma was worried bout. my bust. Nope, 2700 tech down 5000 Land down 11000 infra down 1.2Billion down (although 90mil of it was aid) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ultimate 747 Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Right, if we wanted to obliterate them we wouldn't have offered terms at all. There are other ways to obliterate an alliance than refusing to end a war. One of these is by offering impossible terms that will destroy the alliance to accept. From there, the alliance being offered said terms has two options. Accept and be destroyed by the terms; refuse and be destroyed by the continuing state of war. The benefit that this path gives the victors of a war over refusing to offer any terms at all is that they still get to destroy the losers either way, while concealing there true intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens of the desert Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Also I do not blame Londo as "the greedy bad man" although he is not simply a messenger, I still say the saying keeps pace. Jens, since you are not directly involved in this war and merely an onlooker I ask that, even though you are allowed to speak your mind as you please, do not use wording such that looks like you have a significant say in the matter. It was merely a question as obviously not having me as part of NPO would hurt them possibly for an indefinite amount of time. I'm sorry, I believe we do actually have a level of equality in what people can say now. I'm sorry to tell you that things change and that I am not merely an onlooker as TFO is still in the war, and I have fought (although now anyone I could have fought is now in peace mode). How you came to the conclusion that I was merely an onlooker and therefore have no say baffles me and leads me to think you haven't thought this through properly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingzog Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I think most of us can agree that having 90% and up of your alliance active at all times is an utopian expectation. For those who don't, the facts bear this out anyway. Nordreich has activity levels well over 90%. Its various predecessors had identical activity levels. Than again, what would I know about such things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterShadow Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I'm sorry, I believe we do actually have a level of equality in what people can say now. I'm sorry to tell you that things change and that I am not merely an onlooker as TFO is still in the war, and I have fought (although now anyone I could have fought is now in peace mode).How you came to the conclusion that I was merely an onlooker and therefore have no say baffles me and leads me to think you haven't thought this through properly... I apologize, I was not aware that TFO was involved in this war. For that I rescind my statement and offer you an apology. My statement was based on own personal experience and what I recall. I have not fought any TFO nor do I recall a declaration (although it was a month ago) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TypoNinja Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Snippty the extra long, very excellent explanation. Lets not forget that should the NPO indeed take unrecoverable damage the terms have the provision for them to be paying less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 The leadership of the NPO has not changed much in 3 years. Today: Emperor: TrotskysRevenge Other Officials Imperial Officers * Imperial Regent: Mary the Fantabulous * Imperial Counselor: Vladimir, Philosopher, Koona, Frawley, Bakunin's Dream * Standartenfuhrer: Dilber * Military Affairs: Loucifer, Umbrae Noctem * Diplomacy and Foreign Affairs: VektorZero, Hawk_11, DarkMistress and Triyun * Internal Affairs: noob5, Sir Donald R. Deamon * Economic Affairs: Millionario, Cortath, Lord Strider * News and Propaganda: Z'ha'dum * Clerk: Sir Paul High Command * General: Lord Valleo * Colonel: Jesse End, Xantha * Praetorian Prefect: Zeta Defender * Intelligence Director: Bilrow Council Pacifica * Brehon * Sarai * Elegarth * Litha * Comrade Ash * Applesauce59 3 years ago today: Officials Emperor Ivan Moldavi Imperial Regent Vladimir First Alliance Council - Black Adder - Lord Valentine - Koona - Vladimir First War Council - Dilber - Karpathos - TrotskysRevenge - The Mighty Pump Second Alliance Council - Electron Sponge - Lord Valentine - Mussolandia - The Mighty Pump Second War Council - Dilber - Karpathos - Sei Pistole - TrotskysRevenge Third Alliance Council - Moscovy - Rysonia - Sei Pistole - John Kirkland Third War Council - The Mighty Pump - Dilber - TrotskysRevenge - Karpathos Fourth Alliance Council - Rysonia - Moscovy - Electron Sponge - Nosedondekistan Fourth War Council - TrotskysRevenge - Karpathos - Mussolandia - John Kirkland Former government members in bold. All that's left from that old gov is Moo, Dilber and Vladimir. Everyone else is gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cripple Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Is this topic finally losing steam? Excellent, perhaps now some actual negotiation can be done... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heft Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Never have I wanted to flame so many so indiscriminately as after skimming fifty pages of this terrible, terrible thread. I hate all of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oda Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 what the hell? 109 110 pages in one day?you all do realize it's Saturday...in summer...right? man they don't realize it... XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonewall Jaxon Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Personally, I think the whole "come out of peace mode to get peace" line has gone stale with overuse and so far not one single CN application. You must recognize that CN is a war tactic meant to preserve nation strength during a gangbang, so by asking them to come out you are essentially asking them to voluntarily bust down their own nations during time when they need that NS most. I'm not saying that peace mode shouldn't be punished by the aggressors; high reparations are the key method to countering the peace mode conundrum. In my opinion, Karma should scratch the whole "come out of peace mode" clause and up the reps from 7 billion to 10-15 billion. After all, if NPO's top nations remain unscathed, those reps shouldn't be a problem. Karma, by trying to establish high reps and a forced flight from peace mode is trying to have their cake and eat it too, basically. It's illogical for NPO to come out, but since they have such a large peace mode contingency, enormously high reps are actually reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooner Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Once again Corath astounds all with his magical math. Just a little shifting here, buffing some numbers there, toss in a few exaggerations, and presto! You have a beaurocrat posting fuzzy math like it's the 2008 US elections all over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eigrim Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Nordreich has activity levels well over 90%. Its various predecessors had identical activity levels.Than again, what would I know about such things? That's Nordreich. Can't expect that from just any alliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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