Cripple

All hail the GR ministry of Finance!

[quote name='Horatio II' timestamp='1281262966' post='2404438'] At the moment Drai is running. If that isn't bad enough he's running unopposed. Please, run for minister of trains and save the republican rail network from the tyranny of Drai. [/quote] This.

o/ GR! So glad we have forums again!

Yay!

o/ Karma o/ Greenland Republic o7 Pacifica

Is this topic finally losing steam? Excellent, perhaps now some actual negotiation can be done...

That's very true - Karma has fought together and will give peace together. If it takes a little longer to sort out the value of the reparations, then so be it.

The manner of the peace is important.

I agree. I'll see what can be done.

That's a very good point. Pacificans may well be worried that the reperations will be assessed unfairly. How are we, Karma, planning on assessing their ability to pay?

Oh, okay, but thanks anyway - it was a good idea. It should now get proper coverage.

Thanks Valashi, that's helpful - I'll take it back to GR. However, while I see your point about not being able to send out the cash from the warchests quickly, think about it this way; you can have every nation with over 3,000,000 send out as many offers of 3,000,000 as they can. Over time, this can be replaced by cash from those large warchests. In effect, it's still coming out of the chests, but indirectly, and much more rapidly. Also, it would be unfair, given the magnitude of the reps, to demand that they be paid within a short time frame, so I feel confident that unavoidable tardiness will be tolerated to some extent.

Fair point. It may not look much like it from this topic, but we are discussing whether the terms should be altered. I have to warn you though, there's a lot of people in Karma who won't budge very far. If it truly is impossible, then it won't be asked. However, I need an answer; it seems to me that given the massive warchests (which I mentioned last page) that many NPO nations STILL FIGHTING have (we're talking 250 million, typically) I'm not sure I can accept the argument that you can't pay straight away. Even after fourteen days of fighting, there should be enough spare cash to pay the reps (not sure about asking that the tech come from larger nations though. That seems like a kick in the teeth to me, one I'm not sure we should be delivering).

Incidentally, I want to ask about whether Pacifica really wouldn't be able to pay. The warchests of some of the nations who are still in the war are quite huge. Thirty of them would be enough to pay the cash.

Apologies. It feels wrong to keep on posting this, but at the moment much of this topic is largely superfluous. Let's have reasoned debate. To re-iterate:

This is good debate. I can see your point, that some of the terms may be mutually exclusive. I can tell you that this exact point is currently being debated by Karma alliances. Some people feel that it is possible, but if it is, then certainly an 'action plan' must be drawn up stating exactly how it is possible - I agree, it's not good enough to say 'just deal with it'. o7

I'm afraid you're going to have to be clearer. I personally think the terms are very near to the line of what's justice, and what's hypocrisy. Which side they really fall on must be a collective decision, taken - objectively if possible - by those affected most by the NPO's past actions. The problem is that in the past, lighter terms have been given, and months later, the spirit in which they were issued was spat back in our faces. There's so much distrust that not issuing strong terms would be unacceptable to many. How strong is the issue that needs to be resolved here. The idea is to stop the cycle. Unfortunately, there is a strong feeling that if lighter terms were given, effectively an act of unconditional forgiveness, it would once again be useless, and the cycle would repeat. That may not be the case, but previous experience is an indicator here. For those who missed it:

I will admit that I have some limited sympathy with the announcement. However, I feel that it is very important that everyone understands clearly that the precedent that the most contraversial term follows was set by Pacifica; if you recall, it is they who in the past have specified that any nation in peace mode prior to the conclusion of war would be attacked for a set period, equivalent to the number of days of war which they avoided, starting from the moment at which the rest of the alliance was given peace. The NPO have had the majority of their high strength nations in peace mode for more than fourteen days, so this is not going beyond anything which has been done before. Let us be clear; the fact that 'they did it first' is not a moral justification. However, there is no room here for Pacifica to claim that these terms are harsher than anything previously issued. The reparations are larger than any previous single sum, but this war has been considerably bigger than any that has gone before - increased reparations go hand-in-hand with that. Let us also not forget that many in Karma see these reparations as a repayment for all the damage that Pacfica has done over the course of the last few years, not just for this war. Indeed, some of the terms that Pacifica has issued in the past upon conclusion of its wars have arguably been worse; namely, those leading directly to the disbandment of an enemy alliance. Make no mistake, Karma as a coalition has the power to enforce a ZI order - but the line is drawn; that is beyond the pale. The reason for that is that within the ranks of Karma, there is a strong feeling that we must not be hypocrites in victory. The line between justice and excess is one that must be pinned down firmly. There are good reasons to be optimistic. The removal of the Moldavi Doctrine is an excellent first step on the path to reconcilliation. That is a path that I want us to follow. Yes, I believe that the cycle of revenge can be broken; it can end right now! The difficulty is that there is a strong distrust of Pacifica. There will not be a repeat of GW I. That is why Karma wants these terms - effectively, we want Pacifica to accept them, and when the terms expire, we'll call it quits. But the feeling is that before forgiveness, there must be penance. I've gone on for far too long already: to conclude let us drop the partisan behaviour, and talk frankly about the terms. Both sides. Cripple (Senator, Greenland Republic)

lol, Sneerg. Hail the Republic!

History is made. What has been achieved over these last few weeks wouldn't have seemed possible mere months ago - but it has come to pass, and let no one forget that Vox Populi have fought for this, suffered for this during their entire existence. I feel it is a truly noble move for Vox to disband, task accomplished - a bittersweet moment for them indeed. There will surely have been a great temptation to remain, and to find new purpose, but Vox had one purpose, and anything that came after its accomplishment could only mar the purity of their struggle. Good luck to all the erstwhile members of Vox Populi - you have made enemies through your zeal for your cause, and I suspect that life will not be easy for any of you, but you have proven beyond any doubt that hardship is something you can live with. I think that, if nothing else, deserves a salute. May your future endeavours be blessed. o7 - Vox

Hail Karma. Hail NEW. To a better and friendlier future.

Over 1000 days old. I miss the old times. I haven't been on the OWF for a while, and I just looked at the MDP web; It was getting ridiculous a year ago, but now it's something else! I preferred it when it was the NPO and their allies, the various league alliances (the two groups being connected by the GGA) and the commies. It was simple enough then!